RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 12:08:26 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Just a quick chime in here. I can get motorized rifle squads built but I have to set all infantry to 50 and turn them off refit and mech to 100 with refit on. I ran a test with A-Game and I was able to get 180 motor squads built in my test but everything else went horrible. I fielded about 50k men in that test. All in all I don't know if this swap problem is the problem. I believe if I had 4-5 turns without combat I could rebuild much of my army. The main problem I am seeing is the horrible losses from combat. Perhaps the Blizzard conditions are exacerbating this problem. I'm doing a turn tonight so maybe tomorrow I will have more feedback.

Again is points to a system error I would think, building usless stuff that never gets put into any units. Then refusing to build anything unless you turn all the GHC infantry on 50%, sillyness.

They should be being built as they are needed, you still have 2 units sitting on the edge of map for 5 turns+ do you not?

I have 353 units that need 1939 to 1943 rifle squads and only 284 were built.
I have 26 units that need 1943 to 1945 rifle squads and 289 were build!!

WHT is the AI doing? My 26 divisions are near toe setting and my 353 units are adding 1 or 2% per turn not on line and the ones fighting the toe are dropping.

Did all the upgrades stop in mid 43? and now the system is confused?

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/23/2013 12:10:21 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 12:23:25 AM

Peltonx

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Ok I found something.

On this turn 58th Infantry Division up-grades to 44 ToE whatever to hell that is?

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< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/23/2013 12:24:43 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 12:26:57 AM

rmonical

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quote:

It does not help the games in progress, but I bet this problem could be fixed by adding a second slot in the various division types for the 43 (motorized) rifle squad.

Will I tried it with the security divisions in the 44 scenario and that did not work. Bummer. I added the second slot for the 43 rifle squads to the 42 security division TOE and ran a couple of turns. They did not pick up any of the new style rifle squads.

I did notice that the security divisions start the 44 scenario without a single security squad.

I did learn some things. Walking through the image we see:
1. the engine wants to do a 100% conversion. So the three regiments shown each converted to all new style squads.
2. The engine is OK with both types of squads in a single division. See the recombined 391st Security division. So my TOE suggestion is not needed. The issue seems to be big bang conversion.
3. The principle of conservation of squads applies. Squads are never converted, the old squads are swapped out and the new squads are swapped in. Total old style squads on T4 - 2346 + 246 in the pool = 2592 + 50 destroyed = 2642 at start squads.
4. morvael's observation re the MG sections is absolutely on point. Apparently it upgrades easier than rifle squads. So while few of Pelton's divisions have converted rifle squads, almost all have converted to the new MG section. So we have the situation he points out where 8600 M34 MG and 25800 rifles are waiting to be recycled.

Notice that with plenty of armaments and personnel points in the pool, the conversion of security division rifle squad types is excruciatingly slow. I made the settings Easy so the Germans are not stressed, the security divisions are almost all off the line. Admittedly, their leader checks probably fail. However 221st reports to and has been sitting with AGC and has not converted to new style squads. And so far, they have only converted at the regiment level.

In Pelton's and DVs case, they need more new style squads NOW and have the where-withal to build them. Because so many units are still using the old style squads, they will not sit in the pool long.

So maybe it is WAD, but the issue is the slow pace of conversion to new style squads. I'll keep running my test for a few turns to see how rapidly the security divisions convert.

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< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/23/2013 12:40:16 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 12:27:26 AM

Peltonx

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I checked the Divisions and nothing has up-graded its still 1939 to 1943 squads.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 12:47:37 AM

Peltonx

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Another thing bothering me is I only made 560 total rifle squads and GV made 2400 in a single turn.

My army will fall apart even faster then his at present trend, that probably will not even keep pace with atrition rates.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/23/2013 12:50:52 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 1:02:49 AM

TAIL_GUNNER

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maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't...

but in an old mod I made with 1.05.xx, I noticed all the early war rifle squads were set to upgrade to the mid-war squads (includes all rifle, motorized, mech, and engineer)

however in the latest beta, the only squads set for this are Panzergrenadier and Panzer-Pioneer.

Also, only the regular Pioneer and Panzer-Pioneer is set to upgrade from mid-war to late war.

< Message edited by TAIL_GUNNER -- 4/23/2013 1:14:19 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 1:20:07 AM

Disgruntled Veteran

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Another thing bothering me is I only made 560 total rifle squads and GV made 2400 in a single turn.

My army will fall apart even faster then his at present trend, that probably will not even keep pace with atrition rates.

Well this won't happen until 44 and it will go from 1500-3000 squads a turn.

Yes I do still have units that still have not withdrawn on the edge of the map. They are waiting on motorized squads that never arrive.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 1:26:10 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

quote:

It does not help the games in progress, but I bet this problem could be fixed by adding a second slot in the various division types for the 43 (motorized) rifle squad.

Will I tried it with the security divisions in the 44 scenario and that did not work. Bummer. I added the second slot for the 43 rifle squads to the 42 security division TOE and ran a couple of turns. They did not pick up any of the new style rifle squads.

So basicly GHC is screwed come 44 because of a coding issue or bug,

1. The system is not converting infantry divisions to 43-45 infantry squads fast enough during 43. The system is still making 1939-43 squads at a slowing pace starting in mid 43, which is why the nampower pool starts growing even with armament pts in the pool all of the 2nd half of 43.

2. By Jan 44 only 25 to 30 divisions are converted to 1943-45 squads, but the system is ramping up 43-45 squad production and shutting down 1939 to 1943 production.
This causes a crash in the German OOB as the system is not building the required squads and a balloning of the manpower pool - dispite the fact the GHC has arm pts in the pool.

3. If there is an armament issue its caused by the system building units that never gets used, 10,000's of wasted armament points as pointed out by more then one person.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 1:29:34 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Another thing bothering me is I only made 560 total rifle squads and GV made 2400 in a single turn.

My army will fall apart even faster then his at present trend, that probably will not even keep pace with atrition rates.

Well this won't happen until 44 and it will go from 1500-3000 squads a turn.

Yes I do still have units that still have not withdrawn on the edge of the map. They are waiting on motorized squads that never arrive.

That turn was Jan 20th 1944, why I am feaking out.

How many divisions do you have that are 43-45 and 39-43?

Check production screen GHC only. The number to right is the divisions using the squads. in my case post #66 355 39-43 and 26 43-45

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 1:59:37 AM

Peltonx

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Just got the next turn back

manpower pool grew by 16,000

OOB dropped by -43,000 wth?

Rifle squads produced increased to 380 for both 43-45 and 39-43

Rifle squads in pools increased by 55.

Again no units were converted to 43-45 rifle squads.

losses were only 35,000.

I am bad at math but something simply doesnt seem to add up.

My OOB is tanking and there is next to no fighting going on.

My OOB has dropped by 250,000 men the last 7 turns 43,000 last turn and my manpower pool has grown by 160,000 in 7 turns, setting at 360,000. I have armaments in the pool, so wth is going on?

The last 30+ turns to turn 130 everything was static. Then in just 7 turns for no reason my OOB is disappearing.

Fighting has been light to average.

In another 7 turns I will have close to 500,000 men in manpower pool and my OOB will be below 3.0 millions.

Why?

It has nothing to do with combat because I am retreating all along the line and fighting and atrition is next to nothing 35k per turn. Unlike DV vs A-game's 130k per turn loses, but yet the very same result?

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/23/2013 2:10:41 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 2:11:32 AM

Peltonx

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More http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 2:29:45 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Too late to post a turn but just ended T 143.

-Front line strength down to 2.43 million.

-600k men in reserve.

This game is over! While I'm going to fight like hell and give A-Game the glory of marching to Berlin I simply cannot even hold a line together. Half of my Infantry divisions are less than 1 CV...most of my mech units have 0 motor squads unless they just arrived, all 3 fronts breaking. Only the SS units and the Finns are maintaining the fight and the Finns are about to break. I have disbanded half my SU's to focus replacements on front line units but armament demand is too high. I'm about to start withdrawing 2-3 hexes a turn to outrun his rails and buy me time till mud hits. Hopefully I can recover enough to prepare defenses and soak up several hundred thousand replacements. The only reason my OOB didn't spiral sooner is the 700k armament stockpile I had up to June 43. My AAR tells I didn't play recklessly..something is amiss.

Not sure how to approach it from here. Hopefully some tweaks can be made to make the late game playable. Anyone else have 44-45 games that went differently? (vs a human of course)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3192826&mpage=6&key=

JB I have seen you and other guys from 2by3 reading this trend you care to explian why the game is crashing in Jan 44?

In the 10 turns from Dec 30th to his persent turn (10turns) his OOB went from 3 million to 2.43 million a loss of 570,000 and his manpower pool has 600k in it now.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/23/2013 2:44:29 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 10:37:19 AM

Disgruntled Veteran

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I re-loaded my turn 131. December 23 1943. My front line strength was 3.05 million and the Axis had suffered 3.12 million permanent losses. 12 turns later I am at 2.43 million with 3.95 permanent losses. This is with about 6 German divisions and 2 allied divisions having surrendered in that time period.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 2:42:10 PM

rmonical

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Over in the bug thread, Pavel has given us a little more insight. It appears the units waiting for upgrade must get their new style elements from the active pool. It appears from DV and Pelton and my test that the waiting units in refit mode get a shot at those elements in the pool AFTER non-refit units get their allocation. That is why reducing the TOE helps. The key point is to reduce the max TOE of units that already have the new element type and not the ones waiting for the new element type.

Also, break the divisions needing new element types into regiments. You only need one regiment to upgrade per my earlier post. When one regiment upgrades, recombining the division allows it to take replacements of the new element type.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 4:47:04 PM

RedLancer

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Don't know if this will help but this is an aide memoire on production, logistics etc that I built as I was always getting confused by what was happening - at some point I might add in the relevant manual references. For what it's worth I don't think that the armaments issue is a bug - rather a balance issue between available manpower and armament points.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 9:14:21 PM

javats

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nice updated chart of production, didn't they change refine/syn.fuel to 300t and each HI to 500 res/sup
looking forward to new improved version

quote:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3192826&mpage=6&key=

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/23/2013 10:32:10 PM

Peltonx

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Basicly by design as with The Wolf and The Bear, Pelton vs Kamil, DV vs Agame, Katza vs 76mm, ect ect ect GHC OOB will collaspe in the first quarter of 1944.

This collaspe will happen in the first quarter of 1944 with hvy or light fighting, its just how fast it happens.

It does not matter if you have 700k armament points banked in the summer of 1943 as GV had or your a 100 miles past Moscow as Tarrhunnas in 1943 was or your at the major rivers and land bridge with a FZ carpet 7 hexes deep in 1943 or your Katza vs 76mm or that the SHC has 6 million men or 10 million men.

The GHC OOB will collaspe and manpower pool ballon, because its hard wired into the code.

Denniss/rmonical

1.In 9/43 the german inf div TOE changes from ~17k men to ~13k men, excess squads are sent back to pool over time. If all works right they should be mostly absorbed by other low-TOE units.
If things don't work right because units sit on out-of-production squad types and can't get reinforcements, you'll see manpower growing in pools.

Which is what we are seeing and see in all the 1941 - 1945 games to-date.

2. If lots of units swap their squads from the types ending in 12/43 to the type starting in 1/43 you'll see lots of arm points absorbed by this (and the old types won't get scrapped until 12/44 or 1/45, blocking arm points).

This is simple cause and effect. The effect is seen on the battlefield and the cause is in the code.

The cause should be on the battle field and not in the code thats why we play the game.

morvael

In case of high manpower+high arm in the pool, I blame the auto-production procedure, whereas in case of high manpower+low arm in the pool I'd look for ground element upgrades as the culprit. I believe the current representation is bad, especially in case of squad upgrades, of which there are huge numbers (and needs), high turn-to-turn rotation (a lot of damaged elements) and low per-squad cost (which means it will be produced as priority before the heavy guns, that have higher cost, from what I have gathered). Namely it follows as this: get a squad from the front and send them to Berlin, order them to stockpile their 8 Mausers + 1 MG in Central Berlin Depot. Then send the men on vacation. Then order the factories to build 8 new Mausers + 2 new MG, find some men of vacation and order them to take those weapons and send them to the front. All of these steps, instead of just sending 1 new MG to the front for each squad. And since the pools of obsolete elements empty very slowly starting _next_ year, that means a high number of ARM pts is wasted and "frozen" in those unused elements, as Deniss said.

morveal explanation also is spot on in laymens terms.

1. Starting in mid 43 and the ramming up in Jan 44 all those disappearing rifle squads and the new in coming rifle squads have no wheres to go so the stay on vacation or go on vacation in the manpower pool.

2. Also GHC is scrapping arm pts (8 Mausers + 1 MG ) and upgrading divisions ( that never get new squads) and the 43-45 rifle squad produced only have 26 divisions to go to so most of the new men ( more sucked up arm pts) go on vacation in the manpower pool.

This is not counting all the wasted arm pts building units that are never used pointed out in this thread.

Conclusion: GHC OOB will start dropping off in mid-43 and collaspe in the first quarter of 1944, no matter how good GHC player is or how bad the SHC is. It is simply baked into the cake or the deck is stacked, how ever you want to look at it. Tarrhunnas completely trashed SHC and he was still going to lose at about the same time as the guy turtling from 1942 -45 at the rivers, until he was saved by a hot patch by 2by3.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2792361

If the same system is being used for WitW, 43-45 the GHC OOB will collaspe and manpower pool ballon starting around the 3rd quarter of 1944. The same cause and effects will happen only delayed by a few months. I hope that the same system is not being used in witw or it will be a very predictable game determined by the code and not the players.

Without a hot patch DV army will be in the manpower pool shortly or until Jan 45 which ever comes first.

Now why DV should not get a hot patch and Tarrunnas did we will never know.

Go to this thread to see if the game is working as designed ( GHC collaspe in 1st quarter of 44 by design ) or there is a bug in code.

You deside.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3311677

I will just thank myself now for flagging this issue ( and National Morale :) where were you 3 last yr?) and the 3 amigos for doing the high IQ work and finding it.

3 amigos

I hate being right, again.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/24/2013 12:47:04 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 1:19:43 AM

rmonical

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This is my recommendation based on what I know now. I think you can start doing this on 1/43. I know you can do it in 44.

Put all of the divisions with new style squads (see my most recent post in slow upgrade thread). at 50% TOE and no refit. Place them where they will take as many casualties as possible. You need new style squads in the active pool.

Take all of the divisions with old style squads out of refit mode. Place one regiment per division in refit mode (I do not know if this has an impact). When a regiment upgrades to the new style squads, recombine it with the other regiments, then the division will start taking new style squads as normal replacements. There needs to be more than enough new style squads in the active pool to allow the swap, so lower TOE units are easier to get the swap, all else being equal.

I still have not tested whether both squad types will participate in combat.

As you upgrade divisions to new style squads, place them in the front line. Also, as the original all new style division get close to 60% TOE, put them back to 100% and in refit mode. You will not get any upgrades that turn, but production will produce a bunch of new style squads for those divisions. After you do that, it will take a couple of weeks after you reduce their TOE again before new style squads appear in the active pool.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 4/24/2013 1:22:11 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 1:29:55 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

This is my recommendation based on what I know now. I think you can start doing this on 1/43. I know you can do it in 44.

Put all of the divisions with new style squads (see my most recent post in slow upgrade thread). at 50% TOE and no refit. Place them where they will take as many casualties as possible. You need new style squads in the active pool.

Take all of the divisions with old style squads out of refit mode. Place one regiment per division in refit mode (I do not know if this has an impact). When a regiment upgrades to the new style squads, recombine it with the other regiments, then the division will start taking new style squads as normal replacements. There needs to be more than enough new style squads in the active pool to allow the swap, so lower TOE units are easier to get the swap, all else being equal.

I still have not tested whether both squad types will participate in combat.

As you upgrade divisions to new style squads, place them in the front line. Also, as the original all new style division get close to 60% TOE, put them back to 100% and in refit mode. You will not get any upgrades that turn, but production will produce a bunch of new style squads for those divisions. After you do that, it will take a couple of weeks after you reduce their TOE again before new style squads appear in the active pool.

In other words the snowball started Jan 43 and I have now a disaster on my hands that never should have happened in the first plase by design.

The problem is its 1944 and SHC is driving west and I dont have time to fix 2by3's screw up on the fly and DV is way more screwed then I am.

I feel really bad for him as he had no idea he was going to get hit by a sht strom of a bug.

I knew going into all my last 6 games something was bugged and figured I get screwed taking one for the team.

Hugh been nice enough to wait so I will wait until 2by3 comes up with a better way around their disaster.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 1:34:46 AM

rmonical

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It would be nice if you and Hugh could replay a few turns and see how it works.

1. Does it work in 1943?
2. How quickly can you get units to upgrade?

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 2:47:28 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

It would be nice if you and Hugh could replay a few turns and see how it works.

1. Does it work in 1943?
2. How quickly can you get units to upgrade?

We are kinda bumming it along with several other poeple I am currently playing.

Basicly waiting on 2by3

Players have all invested 100's of hrs.

Be nice if 2by3 invested a few mins to see if they can glue the fish bowl back together.

I am going to take a break from game and wait on 2by3 for a day.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 4/24/2013 2:49:59 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 2:52:15 AM

Michael T

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I am puting my game with Kamil on hold till we get some feedback from 2by3. I don't want to play another 5 or 6 turns then get told we have a fix but only for new games going forward.

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 3:03:26 AM

TAIL_GUNNER

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quote:

Screens show the usual problems - no use of the Sturmpanzer IV (Brummbar), almost no usage of the StuH 42...

there was a battalion of Sturmpanzer IV at Kursk and then some others in the late war, but I cannot find their representation in the game.

the StuG Battalions should began including the StuH42 around early '43 at a ratio of three StuH to seven StuG. There is a 43b StuG Battalion in the game which depicts this, but none of the earlier StuG units upgrade to it...also the 43b StuG upgrades to a 44 StuG Brigade which also has no StuH.

Both AFVs as well as the non-produced StuIG33B are classed as Heavy Assault Guns, which is why they accumulate and are not used in other units..

< Message edited by TAIL_GUNNER -- 4/24/2013 5:26:54 AM >

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 3:13:00 AM

Smakk1370

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I just want to say that this has been a fascinating discussion. And the work you guys have put in is admirable. very cool stuff. :)

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 3:19:10 AM

Joel Billings

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There's no plans for a change on our end. I've asked Pelton on the dev forum for some info, and when I get that I may have more info. We also have a few of the dev team discussing the upgrade issue with certain German infantry type squads which seems to be tied into this. The question is extremely complicated, and if a data change is made (like changing an upgrade path), then it would not impact ongoing games, only new ones. We are not ignoring this, but as I said, it's extremely complex with likely no one size fits all solution (if one is determined to be needed). There was a reason Jim did what he did with the data as it now exists. Did I say this was a complicated issue?

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RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 3:19:51 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I am puting my game with Kamil on hold till we get some feedback from 2by3. I don't want to play another 5 or 6 turns then get told we have a fix but only for new games going forward.

Smart move the 3 amigos do not think it is before Jan 43, but not 100% sure.

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Post #: 116

RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 3:39:41 AM

BrianG

Posts: 4653
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline

For the record. I have another game now at June 1 1944 turn 155. I am germans

The russians have just crossed the oder.

Big red units!

My german casulties are as follows: men 4,295,602 (kia 2,260,00)

Guns 103,116
AFV 18,294

My german OOB is men 2,883,698
guns 33,069
tanks 3,969
air 3,213

My German manpower is 180,835 with no armemants
My all area manpower is 470,714 with armments of 168,064

Peltons manpower should be higher as he has had less losses. Also, maybe german stops producing as he uses up oil supplies. or as they drain off. Plus he disbands so many units perhaps the excess manpower is meant for back office jobs which require not a lot of armements.

Really i am not sure its an issue. Use um or lose um.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 117

RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 3:43:50 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

There's no plans for a change on our end. I've asked Pelton on the dev forum for some info, and when I get that I may have more info. We also have a few of the dev team discussing the upgrade issue with certain German infantry type squads which seems to be tied into this. The question is extremely complicated, and if a data change is made (like changing an upgrade path), then it would not impact ongoing games, only new ones. We are not ignoring this, but as I said, it's extremely complex with likely no one size fits all solution (if one is determined to be needed). There was a reason Jim did what he did with the data as it now exists. Did I say this was a complicated issue?

You guys have done a great job on every single issue once it has seen the light of day.

Almost sorry I found it now as it appears to be a bitch.

Sorry I am such and ass as times, but once I know something is screwed up I will not quit until I am proven wrong or right even if it take 12+ months.

I know I do not see eye to eye with helpless, but hes great at what he does.

Anything I can do to help I am at your service.

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Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 118

RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 3:53:20 AM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

@Joel, so you are saying at this point in time 2by3 see no issue here?

So play on happily?

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(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 119

RE: Late War armament issue back worse then before. - 4/24/2013 12:00:02 PM

elmo3

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

@Joel, so you are saying at this point in time 2by3 see no issue here?

So play on happily?

That's not what he said.

_____________________________

We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. - George Bernard Shaw

WitE alpha/beta tester
Sanctus Reach beta tester
Desert War 1940-42 beta tester

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 120

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