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Will this ship with an AI? - 4/19/2013 10:31:18 PM

Gargoil

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I thought I read on the forums that this game will not have an AI when it ships. But I see lots of AI discussion. Will it have an AI?

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/19/2013 11:32:34 PM

michaelbaldur

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as I understand it. it will be made without AI and some options.

and then, does options will be provided as patches.

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Post #: 2

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/20/2013 12:45:08 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gargoil

I thought I read on the forums that this game will not have an AI when it ships. But I see lots of AI discussion. Will it have an AI?

MWIF will have an AI Opponent, but not as part of its initial release. The AIO will be created after the game's initial release.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/23/2013 9:39:43 PM

tdpyle

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No AI. This seems to be where Chris Marinacci left his version of the game lo those many years ago. Albeit the Matrix version likely has better graphics and more scenarios. Probably more complete on the rules. But still, no AI for all that time is sorta too bad.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 4

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/24/2013 1:13:48 AM

kuancmdr

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Will we get the chance at a latter date to purchase a version with the AI fully implemented into the finished product?

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/24/2013 7:06:20 PM

paulderynck

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That is the plan.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/29/2013 1:40:59 AM

MikeS369

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You have to be kidding me? No AI? 10 years and no AI and then hope an AI is added later. How far down the road can we expect an AI? 10 more years. Phttt.

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Post #: 7

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/29/2013 8:37:14 PM

paulderynck

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Gives you ten years to find some humans to play who will undoubtedly provide far more challenge.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/30/2013 4:23:57 AM

Vanman

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My plan is to purchase the non-AI version and then will upgrade it when the AI arrives. I am basically a lock unless the reviews are that it is bug infested (a la Empires in Arms). One worry I have is that most ignore the non-AI version, and then poor sales result in Matrix pulling the plug on the AI version despite the fact that the contract is for both.

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Post #: 9

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/30/2013 4:31:25 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vanman

My plan is to purchase the non-AI version and then will upgrade it when the AI arrives. I am basically a lock unless the reviews are that it is bug infested (a la Empires in Arms). One worry I have is that most ignore the non-AI version, and then poor sales result in Matrix pulling the plug on the AI version despite the fact that the contract is for both.

Not much danger of that. The upfront cost to create the AIO is just me, and I'm paid in royalties based on sales - yet to be made. The cost of the AIO product is virtually nil since there is no need to change the printed material (Rules as Coded and Players Manual). At most there might be a ReadMe file for the AIO. I can't foresee the need for extensive additional written material. Just select AI Opponent from the list of modes of play and have at it.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/30/2013 8:01:11 AM

Joseignacio

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Empires in Arms was bug infected? I have been thinking of buying it, lately... Is it bug-free now?

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 4/30/2013 5:47:54 PM

jerome

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IMHO, Steve should be really proud of what he has accomplished so far.

Matrix WiF is an enormous project, a huge endeavor.

If it can be released sometime in 2014, without AI, bug free, I think it would be a truly incredible achievement. Nothing less.

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Post #: 12

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/3/2013 8:35:22 AM

Joseignacio

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Granted!

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 1:10:26 AM

Windfire

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Is there a thread that gives the details of why the AI was removed from the initial release?

Also is there any info on how long after the initial release the AI release will occur?

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Post #: 14

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 8:45:46 AM

Joseignacio

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Don't exactly know which one. However, it was removed (AFAIK) because Steve wanted to finally release the first version of the game and it was unrealistic to wait till a version with an AI was possible, after all these years, and after Steve's recent illnesses...

There will be an IA but there is no date. Which is normal if you realize that there is not even a date for the non-AI version yet. Whichs is normal too, after several announces of release that finally didn't happen (years ago).

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Post #: 15

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 9:17:54 AM

Terminus

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I think postponing the AI is dangerous. Post launch, there'll be bugs to fix as well, so finding time to write it will be even harder.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 1:06:58 PM

rmdesantis

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Personally, I don't mourn the fact that the AI will be delayed. An AI would be nice to have, but I can't imagine that it would be anywhere near as good an opponent as a human (even one who plays badly). This game is extraordinarily complex and is challenging for humans to play. A year or two to develop an AI? I think you're off by an order of magnitude.

Once it is released, to your point, there will be bugs to fix. Frustration with the game would only be compounded by any dissatisfaction with the AI as well, and it would prove a distraction to correcting playability issues. Even in your scenario, fixing an AI would be secondary to having a stable platform that could be played by the paying public.

To me, the only advantage to an AI is to help learn the rules to prepare you better to play against human opponents. You can play a few impulses, perhaps a turn or two, but a competent player will likely see little challenge in continuing against it. I would love to be proven wrong, but I think this is the way the smart money would bet.

Mike

(in reply to Terminus)

Post #: 17

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 2:47:02 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

Empires in Arms was bug infected? I have been thinking of buying it, lately... Is it bug-free now?

EiA had some issues, for sure. The last patch resolved a lot of it and it plays pretty well. There are still a few gameplay issues but not bad. The AI still needs work, and hopefully the developer will return to it someday.

quote:

To me, the only advantage to an AI is to help learn the rules to prepare you better to play against human opponents. You can play a few impulses, perhaps a turn or two, but a competent player will likely see little challenge in continuing against it.

I disagree. The nirvana of having a computer opponent for a PC wargame is to have a ready willing competent adversary whenever it is convenient for you, not some pbem or NetPlay opponent someplace. I don't mind waiting for a post-release AI. And I don't mind waiting a while for Steve to continue to improve and enhance the AI over time. You can be a naysayer all you want, but I remain optimistic. The Strategic Command series has an outstanding AI, but it's taken years to get it where it is now. And the effort needed to script the AI and game events is considerable, but well worth it and proves the point that it IS possible to have a formidible AI for a complex grand strategy WWII wargame. Be patient.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 5:21:23 PM

rmdesantis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

Empires in Arms was bug infected? I have been thinking of buying it, lately... Is it bug-free now?

EiA had some issues, for sure. The last patch resolved a lot of it and it plays pretty well. There are still a few gameplay issues but not bad. The AI still needs work, and hopefully the developer will return to it someday.

quote:

To me, the only advantage to an AI is to help learn the rules to prepare you better to play against human opponents. You can play a few impulses, perhaps a turn or two, but a competent player will likely see little challenge in continuing against it.

I disagree. The nirvana of having a computer opponent for a PC wargame is to have a ready willing competent adversary whenever it is convenient for you, not some pbem or NetPlay opponent someplace. I don't mind waiting for a post-release AI. And I don't mind waiting a while for Steve to continue to improve and enhance the AI over time. You can be a naysayer all you want, but I remain optimistic. The Strategic Command series has an outstanding AI, but it's taken years to get it where it is now. And the effort needed to script the AI and game events is considerable, but well worth it and proves the point that it IS possible to have a formidible AI for a complex grand strategy WWII wargame. Be patient.

Don't get me wrong - it would be great to have a capable AI. But I don't see it as needed for this game's original release, nor do I think that waiting until one is ready is reasonable or economically (for Matrix) feasible.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 7:10:06 PM

shunwick

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Rmdesantis,

It is likely to hurt sales though.

Best wishes,
Steve

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 7:17:14 PM

paulderynck

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Let's see. 50% of the revenue now and 50% later, versus no revenue now.

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Post #: 21

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 8:23:37 PM

rmdesantis

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I agree with Paul. Matrix has a very large investment on their books and they need to start getting some return on that investment. Waiting several more years for an AI would seem to be a very poor return on that investment, especially given that they know that there are a substantial number of people who don't need an AI to enjoy the game. People who don't absolutely require an AI will buy the game as soon as it is released; those who want to wait for an AI will wait regardless.

As an aside, I would hope that the AI will be user-programmable in the sense that the user community could help develop/improve it over time rather than rely on the efforts of Steve (or any other single programmer). None of us are as smart as all of us.

Mike

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 10:17:13 PM

Kham

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmdesantis

I agree with Paul. Matrix has a very large investment on their books and they need to start getting some return on that investment. Waiting several more years for an AI would seem to be a very poor return on that investment, especially given that they know that there are a substantial number of people who don't need an AI to enjoy the game. People who don't absolutely require an AI will buy the game as soon as it is released; those who want to wait for an AI will wait regardless.

As an aside, I would hope that the AI will be user-programmable in the sense that the user community could help develop/improve it over time rather than rely on the efforts of Steve (or any other single programmer). None of us are as smart as all of us.

Mike

I don't think Matrix is so heavily involved as you seem to assume.

Seeing that the only work done on the project is Steve and volunteers - and as Steve appearantly is only paid through royalties I don't see Matrix having put much if any investments into this project.

Which also happens to explain why the project has not been killed a long time ago. Or simply published in whatever unfinished state the game was in when the deadline came up - as some developers are infamous for. No way these past 10 years would be acceptable if Matrix had a 'large investment'.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 10:58:15 PM

rmdesantis

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Okay, good point. Then let's substitute 'Matrix' with 'Steve' in terms of who holds the investment. Either way, there is a significant investment in the work-in-progress so having a capable product to sell, without an AI at first, appears to be the most financially prudent.

Mike

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 11:33:06 PM

shunwick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Let's see. 50% of the revenue now and 50% later, versus no revenue now.

Paulderynck,

Thing is - by the time the AI arrives there are going to be lots of people who will just view it as an "old game" and therefore not worth investing in.

I do not agree with it but the gaming community (as a whole and including some wargamers) tend towards being ageist in this way.

They will look at it at release. See that it has no AI. And will write it off. Will they wait two or three years for the AI? Chances are that many will have forgotten about it by then.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 5/7/2013 11:37:03 PM >

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/7/2013 11:44:16 PM

Terminus

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And deservedly so. Not launching with an AI is just bad business.

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/8/2013 1:35:05 AM

CrusssDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And deservedly so. Not launching with an AI is just bad business.

Bad business? This lot? Never!

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/8/2013 2:27:19 AM

Windfire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Don't exactly know which one. However, it was removed (AFAIK) because Steve wanted to finally release the first version of the game and it was unrealistic to wait till a version with an AI was possible, after all these years, and after Steve's recent illnesses...

There will be an IA but there is no date. Which is normal if you realize that there is not even a date for the non-AI version yet. Whichs is normal too, after several announces of release that finally didn't happen (years ago).

Joseignacio - thanks for the information

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 28

RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/8/2013 4:08:09 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Let's see. 50% of the revenue now and 50% later, versus no revenue now.

Paulderynck,

Thing is - by the time the AI arrives there are going to be lots of people who will just view it as an "old game" and therefore not worth investing in.

I do not agree with it but the gaming community (as a whole and including some wargamers) tend towards being ageist in this way.

They will look at it at release. See that it has no AI. And will write it off. Will they wait two or three years for the AI? Chances are that many will have forgotten about it by then.

Best wishes,
Steve

It's funny how many of these forgetful people keep dropping in once or twice a year to whine.

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(in reply to shunwick)

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RE: Will this ship with an AI? - 5/8/2013 5:55:11 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Let's see. 50% of the revenue now and 50% later, versus no revenue now.

Paulderynck,

Thing is - by the time the AI arrives there are going to be lots of people who will just view it as an "old game" and therefore not worth investing in.

I do not agree with it but the gaming community (as a whole and including some wargamers) tend towards being ageist in this way.

They will look at it at release. See that it has no AI. And will write it off. Will they wait two or three years for the AI? Chances are that many will have forgotten about it by then.

Best wishes,
Steve

It's funny how many of these forgetful people keep dropping in once or twice a year to whine.

warspite1

paulderynck I would give it up if I were you. It's just not worth it. You know the sort of people you are dealing with - most of them are just p***** because they have proudly announced on this and other forums at various times in the past that this game would never be released. When they see that they will be proved wrong they look for something else to bitch and whine and/or pontificate on

.

- The game will be coming out.
- It will have no AI in its original release. That decision has been made, having been weighed up by the stakeholders in the project - you know, the people who actually invest money in a project and so have real cash on the line.

If that decision works for you then buy it, if not then don't, or simply delay the purchase until you get the AI you want. Simples.

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