RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

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RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 5:05:19 PM

Dragoon.

Posts: 175
Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Rio Grande do Sul
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Altough i do not attend a lot to the general discussion sub-forum and even if i admit that i didn't follow the whole discussion (but read the first pages), it seems to me pretty strange (but relevant) the fact that WITP:AE consumers (which is probably the most expensive game in Matrix's catalogue) are the ones who complain the less about Matrix pricing policies.
This, to my eyes, means that price is never (or vary seldom) a problem when the product shines like gold.
Tell a AE consumer to give 100 more dollars to michealm to keep on supporting the game and i bet 90% of them will do it (last year we even collected money to make him a present -a new laptop- for christmas).

MatrixGames is a company that knows its job. Its history talks more than 1,000,000 words.

Keep on doing as you are and we'll all be fine!

I think the price of WITP:AE is fair. The game is very complex. I can only imagine the work that went into historic research, designing the game mechanics and programming the algorithms. Not to mention the time to balance, test everything and write the AI on top of that. Also the "high" price is necessary to make sure people know what they are getting into. If you're not into this you will hate this game to the bone and probably every cent spent.
This game is the exact opposite of triple A title. AAA titles while amazingly enjoyable at the beginning tend to become diminishing in fun with every hour you spent playing. In WITP:AE first dozen hours are plain and simple work. You have to study, memorize and iterate the manual before you can have any meaningful game. The "high" price will have an motivation effect on you while you suffer through the learning period. Just because you want get your money out of this. However I played Pacfic War before, so I knew what was coming to me.

I remember when I started with Pacific War. The game had no sound, graphics of an ancient Atari2600 with 320x200 resolution, but I wanted to try something new so I began reading the manual. I was 1/3 through the manual when I thought they (Matrix/Gary Grigsby) can't be serious. Who is going to read all this crap and play this trash?
I was ready to delete the game but for reason I don't remember I kept browsing through the manual.
At end of the manual was a reprint of a history article about the Pacific War.
As I read through article I became fascinated about this conflict. I spend the rest of the day researching the internet for more information about the war, the nations, people, culture, ships and planes involved. I read about the china-japan war, Japan's industry, US industry, both military doctrines, the island hoping campaign, the political parties, the atrocities and heroic acts that were committed.
At the end it was clear to me I had to play this game because on an abstract way I wanted to experience this. With that in mind reading the manual and learning the game itself became fun as I were already playing it. Because the actual game was not happening on my display but in my head.
Today I have a dozen of books about this conflict and the background. I learned a lot and all because of this stupid game and for that I'm grateful. :)

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 211

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 6:07:08 PM

rodney727

Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline

I agree as WITE and witp take a while in between turns. While games like panzer corps and commander series would be playable very much on the iPad . Other games that would work well I think are unity of command and time of fury.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

I think it depends largely on the type of game. I would definitely play Panzer Corps on an iPad or Android, I would not play WiTP nor do I think WiTP would run on most tablets out today.

I think the only way I would play a game like WiTP on a tablet at this point is if the mobile version let you wirelessly sync with your computer version so you could play on your PC at home and also play on the go. That's really where I hope a lot of the Tablet/PC gaming goes next, once tablets are a bit more powerful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Here is my progression in college... Risk which led to A&A which then led to house rules of that game...soon after got my first computer bought steel panthers and panzer general. Eventually found matrix games. I think slitherine has opened up a whole new door with tablet gamming. While the "hard core" wargamers will only buy games that will and can only be played on computers. Some of course will do both but many will choose the tablet. To get younger future people to play wargames I think this is the best option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I continue to think that the proper target audiences for wargame promotions are to be found on college campuses. There you've got the right age-group for future wargamers and the right intellect pool. I can never forget that that is just how SPI got me hooked, so many decades ago: They placed their games in the college bookstore. That's probably not doable anymore, but, somehow, that audience needs to be targeted.

_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to histgamer)

Post #: 212

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 6:21:48 PM

rodney727

Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline

I remember when they said they were making the iPad how the so called experts in the industry said it wouldn't sell. So yes I agree it's an option but not the answer. My first computer in 1994 only had 4mb of memory and it was huge! Five years from now maybe tablets will equal laptops who knows?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Tablets are an option but not the answer..apparently the bigger tablets are dead and it's all going to be 7 inch. My 19 inch screen is a huge issue for me in wargames let alone a 7 inch one. Yes you can plug it into a TV..but isn't that then defeating the whole purpose of an IPad in the first place?

IOS is a good way to get the lighter wargames out there leading them onto the games on a PC I suppose.

TabletPC hybrids might be the way forward..where the screen detaches to be a tablet..just a rather big one. One has already been made I believe.

_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to wodin)

Post #: 213

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 10:39:51 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borg917

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Finally, an idea regarding sales of back catalogue from Tim Stone a reporter at RPS has a certain resonance, as coincidentally we have been looking at doing something along the lines he suggests. Firstly we have to hear back from our developer partners, as we don�t cut their prices without consultation and they may not be interested. So how about this for an idea, as Tim seems keen to help us. We host a promotion, sale of the week and run it in conjunction with RPS.

If the developers agree, and you can offer these games in a �50 package, take my money please!

Spartan (2005)
Tin Soldiers: Alexander The Great (2004)
Tin Soldiers Julius Caesar (2005)

Flashpoint Germany (2005)
Norm Koger�s The Operational Art of War III (1998-2006) (already have this, but what the heck :)
Close Combat Modern Tactics (2007)

Battles In Normandy (2004)
Carriers At War (2007)
John Tiller�s Campaign Series (1999-2007)

Gary Grigsby�s War Between The States (2008)
Birth of America 2 (2008)
John Tiller�s Battleground Civil War (1995-2007)

Napoleon In Italy (2007)
John Tiller�s Battleground Napoleonic Wars (1996-2007)
Napoleon�s Campaigns (2007)

A deal on the latest version of Harpoon wouldn't hurt either

And for perspective, Tim Stone suggests a price point of �10, not �50, for each of those bundles. It won't surprise if Matrix chooses �50, but I would expect the sales to peak at dozens with a price like that. You're looking at games that are basically 6-9 years old.

Now if you were suggesting all of those games for �50, that I could understand.

Edited to (add) reflect the fact that OP was indeed suggesting �10 for each bundle, or �50 to purchase all five bundles. And yeah, even though it would mean repurchasing 3 of the 15 (so basically 12 games for �50) I'd do it in a heartbeat. But I still stick by my precognition that Matrix's price point will be closer (far closer) to �50/�250 than �10/�50. For games 6-9 years old.

< Message edited by dutchman55555 -- 4/29/2013 11:04:16 PM >

(in reply to Borg917)

Post #: 214

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 10:46:12 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: grogmaster

I'd be lucky if I can afford one per year at full price.

Which is your problem. And yours alone.

So if someone can afford full price but wants a lower price they are "greedy", and if they can only afford one a year that's "their problem"?

Ah, the lip smacking greatness of Triple Awesome Grape(tm).

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 215

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 10:55:51 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Altough i do not attend a lot to the general discussion sub-forum and even if i admit that i didn't follow the whole discussion (but read the first pages), it seems to me pretty strange (but relevant) the fact that WITP:AE consumers (which is probably the most expensive game in Matrix's catalogue) are the ones who complain the less about Matrix pricing policies.
This, to my eyes, means that price is never (or vary seldom) a problem when the product shines like gold.
Tell a AE consumer to give 100 more dollars to michealm to keep on supporting the game and i bet 90% of them will do it (last year we even collected money to make him a present -a new laptop- for christmas).

Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group.

(in reply to GreyJoy)

Post #: 216

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 11:11:19 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: grogmaster

I'd be lucky if I can afford one per year at full price.

Which is your problem. And yours alone.

So if someone can afford full price but wants a lower price they are "greedy", and if they can only afford one a year that's "their problem"?

Ah, the lip smacking greatness of Triple Awesome Grape(tm).

What are you sucking on your pacifier about this time.

Yeah, if you can't afford more than one game a year, that is your problem. Instead of coming onto a public message board and whine about something so inconsequential, try something else. Like a job. Or saving some money to put towards such a luxury.

Lots of people out there who would just laugh at you. Either because they have *real* problems. Or because, as I did, they worked hard, saved even harder, passed up on a lot of the hot things to have.

Now, for instance, I can buy any game I want. Every week. Been doing that for 30 years in fact. Couldn't always do it. But when I couldn't, There is one thing I never did.

Which was to come to a message board and blame everyone else.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to dutchman55555)

Post #: 217

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 11:26:27 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group.

As was explained at release, the reference to the tutorial was an editing error. The 300+ page manual, largest we've still printed to date (until World in Flames is released), is there for you though. That said, a new manual is actually in the works for AE, and hopefully will be ready before the next reprint.

AE was a community project from start to finish, so I think it's fair to say that without some very talented and skilled members of the commmunity, AE would not even exist. While we at Matrix and 2by3 love WITP at that point 2by3 did not have time to revisit WITP on their own. I think the number of folks who are playing it speaks to the fact that it can be learned just fine. Figuring out how to play it is not that hard - playing it well is much more challenging and experience and discussion with other players is the best aid there. A new tutorial or larger manual would be of limited use, there's only so much that can really be explained without practice.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 4/29/2013 11:27:59 PM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to dutchman55555)

Post #: 218

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 11:49:24 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group.

As was explained at release, the reference to the tutorial was an editing error. The 300+ page manual, largest we've still printed to date (until World in Flames is released), is there for you though. That said, a new manual is actually in the works for AE, and hopefully will be ready before the next reprint.

AE was a community project from start to finish, so I think it's fair to say that without some very talented and skilled members of the commmunity, AE would not even exist. While we at Matrix and 2by3 love WITP at that point 2by3 did not have time to revisit WITP on their own. I think the number of folks who are playing it speaks to the fact that it can be learned just fine. Figuring out how to play it is not that hard - playing it well is much more challenging and experience and discussion with other players is the best aid there. A new tutorial or larger manual would be of limited use, there's only so much that can really be explained without practice.

Regards,

- Erik

Yes Erik, the manual is wonderfully comprehensive at 320 pages. But it fails with a puny and less than comprehensive 6 page index, to the point where I put it down and wondered why I shelled out an extra $15 for a hard copy. But hey, that's just my impression, YMMV.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 219

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/29/2013 11:52:49 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

Ever so pleased to see the Deal of the Week. Well done, Matrix. A shame I already have the Tiller collection, but that's luck of the draw. I'll give a long, hard thought about Forge of Freedom. A $22 (CAD) price is closer to Matrix's idea of a price point than mine for a six and a half year old game, but I'd certainly like to encourage further deals in the future.

< Message edited by dutchman55555 -- 4/29/2013 11:55:52 PM >

(in reply to dutchman55555)

Post #: 220

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 12:28:36 AM

Skyros

Posts: 1570
Joined: 9/29/2000
From: Columbia SC
Status: offline

I use the PDF version which is searchable even on google drive. Nothing is perfect we just make do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group.

As was explained at release, the reference to the tutorial was an editing error. The 300+ page manual, largest we've still printed to date (until World in Flames is released), is there for you though. That said, a new manual is actually in the works for AE, and hopefully will be ready before the next reprint.

AE was a community project from start to finish, so I think it's fair to say that without some very talented and skilled members of the commmunity, AE would not even exist. While we at Matrix and 2by3 love WITP at that point 2by3 did not have time to revisit WITP on their own. I think the number of folks who are playing it speaks to the fact that it can be learned just fine. Figuring out how to play it is not that hard - playing it well is much more challenging and experience and discussion with other players is the best aid there. A new tutorial or larger manual would be of limited use, there's only so much that can really be explained without practice.

Regards,

- Erik

Yes Erik, the manual is wonderfully comprehensive at 320 pages. But it fails with a puny and less than comprehensive 6 page index, to the point where I put it down and wondered why I shelled out an extra $15 for a hard copy. But hey, that's just my impression, YMMV.

(in reply to dutchman55555)

Post #: 221

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 12:33:00 AM

rodney727

Posts: 1460
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline

I will say this was the last thing I was expecting today. Picked up JT. Thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

Ever so pleased to see the Deal of the Week. Well done, Matrix. A shame I already have the Tiller collection, but that's luck of the draw. I'll give a long, hard thought about Forge of Freedom. A $22 (CAD) price is closer to Matrix's idea of a price point than mine for a six and a half year old game, but I'd certainly like to encourage further deals in the future.

_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to dutchman55555)

Post #: 222

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 12:33:02 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Ashley, the games I play regularly are mostly John Tiller's American Civil War campaign series and a bit of his Napoleonic series. My favorite game of all time is HPS Campaign Gettysburg and if I can claim to be an expert in any game, that is the one. I thought that when I retired from teaching I would have all the time in the world to finally play the many, many games I have collected, but actually I only played a few turns of Gettysburg battle I started back 2010! Turns out that ranching is hard work and the more animals I got and the more I worked at self-sufficiency (baking bread, making cheese, cutting firewood for winter) plus just the maintenance of running a solar/wind power system and doing mundane things like fence repair, chicken coop construction, horse training and grooming, goat herding and so much more just took the whole day (still mostly does). It's only been since last December that I've gotten pretty heavily into new game purchases. Got a little help from solar credits on my taxes that earned me a refund.

I have 3 terrabytes of hard drives on each of my two computers so I've got hundreds of games installed and more sitting on the shelves. There are also shelves of board games, though I don't buy those anymore and want to sell my collection if anyone's interested.

I also own about every flight simulator available. In addition, I have a recording studio set up on my sun porch and one computer dedicated to Cubase and video and music processing (haven't had much time for those either).

I may be poor now, but I did accumulate lots of toys in my working years!

If you are interested in some PBEM, what games are your favorite? I probably own them LOL

Wow, you are busy - I would love to get into the Civil War and Napoleonic stuff sometime (very interested in the 19th Century at the moment). My time is pretty well spread between John Tiller Campaign Series and all the mods for it at theblitz.org, Squad Battles, Steel Panthers and Battle Academy. I recently got WitPAE and BOA2 - (which I am looking into at the moment) as well as Kharkov Disaster on the Donets. I would be very happy to play any of them against you - are you a member at theblitz.org?

Yes, I am a member at the Blitz, but haven't done a thing over there. I've never really cared about "ladders" as I'm interested in playing a good historical battle without regard to winning or losing. I've never had any real focus on "winning" as such (though I am definitely a very competent player in HPS or Matrix ACW). I try to play in a historically realistic manner which doesn't always work out so well with a gamer only interested in the "win" and willing to use ahistorical tactics and rule loopholes to do it. For example, I respect unit organization and lines of command, I would never dream of assembling large regiments from different divisions and forming maximum strength killer stacks and then making a blitzkrieg attack through an historically deployed Union defensive line. It might be effective, but it isn't a Civil War battle any more...

I've had WitP and AE for years, but have barely scratched the surface. I'd love to PBEM another relative novice. I have BOA and BOA2, but haven't gained any real mastery of the system. Again, willing to give it a try with a PBEM opponent. I've really about come to the point where solitaire play just isn't doing much for me. PM if you are interested and we can discuss possibilities (and I have lots of possibilities in my collection).

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to Ashcloud)

Post #: 223

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 12:39:11 AM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Guys this is an amazing article that a new game which just came out posted on their blog. It's not strictly a wargame, it's not really, it's a game about building your own gaming company. Anyway they posted first day sales figures for a game which I purchased and think is deep enough to pay 3x what they charge (They only charged $7.99 on release day for their first day on Windows 7 and Mac)and they have some interesting little figures when it comes to piracy. I'm astounded by how high the numbers are, but it definitely kills the notion (if the figures are valid) that lowering prices will somehow kill piracy and that's the reason I included this here.

GameDevTycoon

P.S. My guess is the price is where it's at because they are trying to compete with GameDevStory which is a far more arcady title but is on iOS and Android and fills the same type of game.

Saw the story here and had to laugh. Absolutely wonderful.

(in reply to histgamer)

Post #: 224

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 1:20:19 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Guys this is an amazing article that a new game which just came out posted on their blog. It's not strictly a wargame, it's not really, it's a game about building your own gaming company. Anyway they posted first day sales figures for a game which I purchased and think is deep enough to pay 3x what they charge (They only charged $7.99 on release day for their first day on Windows 7 and Mac)and they have some interesting little figures when it comes to piracy. I'm astounded by how high the numbers are, but it definitely kills the notion (if the figures are valid) that lowering prices will somehow kill piracy and that's the reason I included this here.

GameDevTycoon

P.S. My guess is the price is where it's at because they are trying to compete with GameDevStory which is a far more arcady title but is on iOS and Android and fills the same type of game.

Saw the story here and had to laugh. Absolutely wonderful.

Now they should offer a patch to correct the problem and only charge them $7.99 for it

I wonder how many of the pirates would actually pay for it?

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to dutchman55555)

Post #: 225

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 3:09:18 AM

histgamer

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline

Not many I'm sure. Not that it would have made a huge difference but one mistake in what they did. They should have included an in game purchase option.

That said to those who say piracy gets you word of mouth and can increase sales, I would argue this companies response got them way more than piracy ever could. They were featured on, IGN, Joystiq, Polygon, etc all today, their site crashed numerous times and a life stream of a 2 hour game of theirs was the most popular on all of Twitch with sustained viewing of over 20,000 people for virtually the entire time, and a peak of 26,000. Lord knows they must have increased on their day 1 sales from 200 units sold to something more.

< Message edited by flanyboy -- 4/30/2013 3:11:50 AM >

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 226

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 9:49:15 AM

Ashcloud

Posts: 214
Joined: 11/29/2010
Status: offline

Dang, they got me again - could not resist picking up the JT Civil War and then had to get the JT Napoleon one too (because it is bundled together would you not know), could not afford this right now. Next week they will probably put SPWAWGE and TAOWIII and then I might as well sign the up for the bankruptcy courts (can we not stagger these specials throughout the year - like first week of every month?).

_____________________________

(in reply to histgamer)

Post #: 227

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 10:45:14 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

Dang, they got me again - could not resist picking up the JT Civil War and then had to get the JT Napoleon one too (because it is bundled together would you not know), could not afford this right now. Next week they will probably put SPWAWGE and TAOWIII and then I might as well sign the up for the bankruptcy courts (can we not stagger these specials throughout the year - like first week of every month?).

Then you will want to check this out for JT Napoleonic scenarios and lots of tactical advice

http://nap.phxsim.com/articles/index.html

_____________________________

Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

(in reply to Ashcloud)

Post #: 228

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 10:56:17 AM

Ashcloud

Posts: 214
Joined: 11/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

Dang, they got me again - could not resist picking up the JT Civil War and then had to get the JT Napoleon one too (because it is bundled together would you not know), could not afford this right now. Next week they will probably put SPWAWGE and TAOWIII and then I might as well sign the up for the bankruptcy courts (can we not stagger these specials throughout the year - like first week of every month?).

Then you will want to check this out for JT Napoleonic scenarios and lots of tactical advice

http://nap.phxsim.com/articles/index.html

Just had a quick look, fantastic - thank you.

_____________________________

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 229

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 12:09:31 PM

histgamer

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline

Ahh but in Bankrupcy the first thing the banks will liquidate is your wargame collection, be careful!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

Dang, they got me again - could not resist picking up the JT Civil War and then had to get the JT Napoleon one too (because it is bundled together would you not know), could not afford this right now. Next week they will probably put SPWAWGE and TAOWIII and then I might as well sign the up for the bankruptcy courts (can we not stagger these specials throughout the year - like first week of every month?).

(in reply to Ashcloud)

Post #: 230

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 5:34:55 PM

n01487477

Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group.

There are video tutorials made by myself and another guy, there are AAR's devoted to the subject, there is a wiki, there are thousands of threads devoted to it, there are small scale scenario's and a willing bunch of AE addicts who will take you under their wing... and yet I see not one post in that forum area from you ...

Honestly - really?

A paper tutorial from the designers would do nothing but scratch the surface of the game and the mechanics & has already been done by the forum in a more comprehensive way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Yes Erik, the manual is wonderfully comprehensive at 320 pages. But it fails with a puny and less than comprehensive 6 page index, to the point where I put it down and wondered why I shelled out an extra $15 for a hard copy. But hey, that's just my impression, YMMV.

I guessing you're a glass half empty kind of guy ...

Use the electronic version for searching and the hard copy for reading (cover to cover).

Cheers - I hope to see your posts in the aforementioned forum ...

_____________________________

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EconDoc
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Tutes&Java

(in reply to dutchman55555)

Post #: 231

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 7:29:29 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group.

There are video tutorials made by myself and another guy, there are AAR's devoted to the subject, there is a wiki, there are thousands of threads devoted to it, there are small scale scenario's and a willing bunch of AE addicts who will take you under their wing... and yet I see not one post in that forum area from you ...

Honestly - really?

A paper tutorial from the designers would do nothing but scratch the surface of the game and the mechanics & has already been done by the forum in a more comprehensive way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Yes Erik, the manual is wonderfully comprehensive at 320 pages. But it fails with a puny and less than comprehensive 6 page index, to the point where I put it down and wondered why I shelled out an extra $15 for a hard copy. But hey, that's just my impression, YMMV.

I guessing you're a glass half empty kind of guy ... Use the electronic version for searching and the hard copy for reading (cover to cover).

Cheers - I hope to see your posts in the aforementioned forum ...

Unless it's to complain ad nauseum, don't count on it.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 232

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 9:05:10 PM

berto

Posts: 20708
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Yes, I am a member at the Blitz, but haven't done a thing over there. I've never really cared about "ladders" as I'm interested in playing a good historical battle without regard to winning or losing. I've never had any real focus on "winning" as such (though I am definitely a very competent player in HPS or Matrix ACW). I try to play in a historically realistic manner which doesn't always work out so well with a gamer only interested in the "win" and willing to use ahistorical tactics and rule loopholes to do it. For example, I respect unit organization and lines of command, I would never dream of assembling large regiments from different divisions and forming maximum strength killer stacks and then making a blitzkrieg attack through an historically deployed Union defensive line. It might be effective, but it isn't a Civil War battle any more...

+1

My sentiments exactly. One of many reasons why I don't do PBEM.

_____________________________

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(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 233

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 9:15:34 PM

Ashcloud

Posts: 214
Joined: 11/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Yes, I am a member at the Blitz, but haven't done a thing over there. I've never really cared about "ladders" as I'm interested in playing a good historical battle without regard to winning or losing. I've never had any real focus on "winning" as such (though I am definitely a very competent player in HPS or Matrix ACW). I try to play in a historically realistic manner which doesn't always work out so well with a gamer only interested in the "win" and willing to use ahistorical tactics and rule loopholes to do it. For example, I respect unit organization and lines of command, I would never dream of assembling large regiments from different divisions and forming maximum strength killer stacks and then making a blitzkrieg attack through an historically deployed Union defensive line. It might be effective, but it isn't a Civil War battle any more...

+1

My sentiments exactly. One of many reasons why I don't do PBEM.

There are all types of players at theblitz.org and many do not care about the results as much as the enjoyment of the game and the historical context and interest - however if you truly want to experience a challenge then you need to step away from AI and pit yourself against other people. AI is a very long way from giving the same challenge as a good human player in any game. If you should ever want to challenge yourself a bit more then join theblitz.org and specify what type of game you are looking for and what type of game experience you would like to get - I am sure you will find good players who would be willing to forego the result in favor of a historically accurate representation of the conflict if that is your desire, or you could just get beaten really badly in a game you thought you were good at if that is what you would prefer.

_____________________________

(in reply to berto)

Post #: 234

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 9:56:59 PM

berto

Posts: 20708
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

One of many reasons why I don't do PBEM.

There are all types of players at theblitz.org and many do not care about the results as much as the enjoyment of the game and the historical context and interest - however if you truly want to experience a challenge then you need to step away from AI and pit yourself against other people. AI is a very long way from giving the same challenge as a good human player in any game. If you should ever want to challenge yourself a bit more then join theblitz.org and specify what type of game you are looking for and what type of game experience you would like to get - I am sure you will find good players who would be willing to forego the result in favor of a historically accurate representation of the conflict if that is your desire, or you could just get beaten really badly in a game you thought you were good at if that is what you would prefer.

"many" -- I do have other reasons.

I don't claim to be a "good" player. When playing these games, "winning" or "losing" mean little to me. I estimate that for half of the games I play, the AI gives me sufficient challenge to make the game interesting. For the other half -- including notably the John Tiller American Civil War games (in both their Matrix and HPS/JTS incarnations, where the AI is very subpar) -- I have no qualms about playing hot-seat solitaire. I've been playing war games since the early 1960s. Way back then, and until PC games and the Internet, I played virtually all of my board war games solitaire. What can I say? Old habits die hard.

I am a member of the Blitz, but not for the competition, instead for the posting privileges. For that too, I have my special reasons.

_____________________________

(in reply to Ashcloud)

Post #: 235

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 10:30:29 PM

Ashcloud

Posts: 214
Joined: 11/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

One of many reasons why I don't do PBEM.

There are all types of players at theblitz.org and many do not care about the results as much as the enjoyment of the game and the historical context and interest - however if you truly want to experience a challenge then you need to step away from AI and pit yourself against other people. AI is a very long way from giving the same challenge as a good human player in any game. If you should ever want to challenge yourself a bit more then join theblitz.org and specify what type of game you are looking for and what type of game experience you would like to get - I am sure you will find good players who would be willing to forego the result in favor of a historically accurate representation of the conflict if that is your desire, or you could just get beaten really badly in a game you thought you were good at if that is what you would prefer.

"many" -- I do have other reasons.

I don't claim to be a "good" player. When playing these games, "winning" or "losing" mean little to me. I estimate that for half of the games I play, the AI gives me sufficient challenge to make the game interesting. For the other half -- including notably the John Tiller American Civil War games (in both their Matrix and HPS/JTS incarnations, where the AI is very subpar) -- I have no qualms about playing hot-seat solitaire. I've been playing war games since the early 1960s. Way back then, and until PC games and the Internet, I played virtually all of my board war games solitaire. What can I say? Old habits die hard.

I am a member of the Blitz, but not for the competition, instead for the posting privileges. For that too, I have my special reasons.

Oh well, that is alright then - I thought you were having a go at PBEM players but you are a blitz member so never mind my little pbem rant...

See you at the club.

_____________________________

(in reply to berto)

Post #: 236

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 10:51:07 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

Dang, they got me again - could not resist picking up the JT Civil War and then had to get the JT Napoleon one too (because it is bundled together would you not know), could not afford this right now. Next week they will probably put SPWAWGE and TAOWIII and then I might as well sign the up for the bankruptcy courts (can we not stagger these specials throughout the year - like first week of every month?).

Ironic that you voice (albeit mock) concerns over insolvency purchasing from Matrix at their sale prices.

(in reply to Ashcloud)

Post #: 237

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 10:57:36 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
Cool. Any word on when the tutorial promised on the very first page of the manual (Section 1.1, as a matter of fact) will be released? When will a working index be made available? Honestly if it wasn't for fan support WitP:AE would be pretty much unplayable by anyone who hadn't been in the Beta test group.

There are video tutorials made by myself and another guy, there are AAR's devoted to the subject, there is a wiki, there are thousands of threads devoted to it, there are small scale scenario's and a willing bunch of AE addicts who will take you under their wing... and yet I see not one post in that forum area from you ...

At the time of acquiring AE I did skim the forums. (Like any forum) the low ratio of wheat to chaff was discouraging. I did find videos on Youtube. The forum videos (that I found) were short, and half would not play (hosted on a rather old website IIRC). I did walk away at the time, as I intended to bone up on the manual at work. The poor index kind of scuppered that. But I did boot up the game last night and do several turns. Enjoyable, but I was mostly clueless about how to affect the tide of things.

(in reply to n01487477)

Post #: 238

RE: The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche - 4/30/2013 11:00:35 PM

dutchman55555

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline