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Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 6:00:51 PM

Sieppo

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What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 5/12/2013 6:03:06 PM >

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 6:06:46 PM

geofflambert

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I've wondered that too. Perhaps it avoids accidental damage from groundings, being driven ashore by squalls etc.. Is such incidental damage more likely in shallow water game-wise?

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 6:34:59 PM

sprior

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Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 6:39:44 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

They also have this strange distaste for torpedoes.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 6:40:53 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

You know there's a Coastal routing choice, right?

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 6:45:24 PM

Encircled

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Isn't that only on the beta patch?

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 6:47:43 PM

sprior

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

They also have this strange distaste for torpedoes.

True, but navigating close to shores with out of date charts is no fun at all.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 7:25:26 PM

geofflambert

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CHARTS ?!? I DON'T NEEN NO DAMN CHARTS! I just hit the button for Warp factor 8 and go!

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 7:51:18 PM

Sardaukar

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You should remember that USN refused to support horrible Buna-Gona battle, because danger of ship grounding. This left relatively green US Div without artillery support (they could not land artillery or heavy equipment).

Navies generally shun away from coral reefs, for good reason.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 7:58:50 PM

d0mbo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

But you are wrong here. I've had a ship hitting a rock and I remember a forum poster losing a CV because its bottom was ripped off due to a sharp rock......

Doesn't happen a lot though, but still ;)

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 8:10:26 PM

Sieppo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

They also have this strange distaste for torpedoes.

This is my point also.. But maybe they prefer torpedoes over groundings...

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 8:13:56 PM

Sardaukar

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My point is that being close to shore in shallow water is no place to be. Unless unavoidable. It's maritime tradition and realistic.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 8:21:36 PM

Sieppo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

But you are wrong here. I've had a ship hitting a rock and I remember a forum poster losing a CV because its bottom was ripped off due to a sharp rock......

Doesn't happen a lot though, but still ;)

Damn, this would explain some mysterious damages i have encountered on my freighters from time to time..

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 5/12/2013 8:22:00 PM >

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 9:11:43 PM

Icedawg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

You know there's a Coastal routing choice, right?

One more reason why I can't wait for the official patch.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/12/2013 10:09:14 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

You know there's a Coastal routing choice, right?

One more reason why I can't wait for the official patch.

You may be waiting forever. The betas are stable as can be. You're missing out on a huge amount of stuff if you eschew them.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 12:10:34 AM

Cerion

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You may be waiting forever. The betas are stable as can be. You're missing out on a huge amount of stuff if you eschew them.

Exactly, not worth waiting since the betas added many interesting features and, in most cases, are as stable as the official patches. Do not miss them.

< Message edited by Cerion -- 5/13/2013 12:11:39 AM >

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 1:08:29 AM

dcpollay

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My recollection is that in the game, don't subs have some kind of advantage in shallow water? Ships are less maneuverable, or something like that that makes them more susceptible to torpedo attack in shallows? Can't find it in the Manual, though. Maybe discussed in a post?

I know that subs themselves are at a disadvantage when diving to escape in shallow water (6.7 in the Manual).

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 3:14:08 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

Ever hear of Battleship Espana? Or HMS Frobisher? Both ripped their bottoms out between the wars. How about USS Guardian? It became a permanent part of the reef in the Phillipines earlier this year. Or the Point Hondo naval disaster? Seven Destroyers played follow the leader up onto the rocks.

Warships don't do good on land. Land had rocks, which do nasty things to steel hulls. Plus ships can't manever , can't go fast and CV's can't launch aircraft, which makes them VERY vulnerable.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 3:15:10 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

They also have this strange distaste for torpedoes.

I'd rather dodge a torpedo doing 30kts in a wide seaway , then face one at 5kts in a restricted channel.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 3:15:59 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

They also have this strange distaste for torpedoes.

True, but navigating close to shores with out of date charts is no fun at all.

Ask the former commanding officer of USS Guardian.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 3:19:29 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

They also have this strange distaste for torpedoes.

I'd rather dodge a torpedo doing 30kts in a wide seaway , then face one at 5kts in a restricted channel.

Unfortunately, when you're talking about sub fired torpedoes, you almost never know there is one to dodge.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 3:25:58 AM

AW1Steve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

Because people in ships generally shy away from land unless it's their destination.

They also have this strange distaste for torpedoes.

I'd rather dodge a torpedo doing 30kts in a wide seaway , then face one at 5kts in a restricted channel.

Unfortunately, when you're talking about sub fired torpedoes, you almost never know there is one to dodge.

That depends on the torpedo type, the water conditions(such as luminecscent) or if the torpedo is shallow enough to cavatite, the light conditions, and the alertness of your look outs or SONAR operators.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 4:54:57 AM

Capt Hornblower

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To OP:

You can also try DIRECT routing for a task force, if convenient.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 12:39:04 PM

Itdepends

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RE unexplained merchant ship damage- it's more commonly due to collisions- particularly in large taskforces. The xAK's don't come with the best commanders.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 1:02:25 PM

Sieppo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

To OP:

You can also try DIRECT routing for a task force, if convenient.

All the time but does not work most of the time. The behavior is weird with it, maybe has to do with ship size. I mean sometimes ships even with direct on only decide to do one hex in a coast hex and then return to deep ocean for two and then again to the shallow one..

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/13/2013 3:34:14 PM

d0mbo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

What's with almost every ship type preferring deep water instead of shallower by default? It is a pain in the ass trying to avoid submarines with waypoints every time. The game does not simulate ships hitting the bottom so why would not choose shallower water when subs are around as in everywhere in the Pacific.

But you are wrong here. I've had a ship hitting a rock and I remember a forum poster losing a CV because its bottom was ripped off due to a sharp rock......

Doesn't happen a lot though, but still ;)

Damn, this would explain some mysterious damages i have encountered on my freighters from time to time..

If it happens, it will show up in the ''ops'' report. Let me see if i can find the post on these forums.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/14/2013 11:51:10 AM

spence

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quote:

Ever hear of Battleship Espana? Or HMS Frobisher? Both ripped their bottoms out between the wars. How about USS Guardian? It became a permanent part of the reef in the Phillipines earlier this year. Or the Point Hondo naval disaster? Seven Destroyers played follow the leader up onto the rocks.

IRL HIJMS Kaga found a rock during the DEI Campaign...no accolades for the discovery were heaped on the CO though. Quite a few of the US submarines lost during WWII were lost due to groundings - seems to me particularly so during the DEI Campaign. I know that I have read somewhere that charts of the region were very unreliable.

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/14/2013 12:46:45 PM

dr.hal

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ASW defensive action is far more effective in shallow waters, thus I always send my TFs through shallow areas to increase the chances of an effective ASW attack. I think the risk of hitting underwater objects is insignificant in comparison to either avoiding or killing a sub. I've never run aground, knock on wood. By the way, I'm assuming that the CV air restriction is applicable to only partial land hexes, whether they are deep water or shallow, am I right about that? Hal

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/14/2013 1:48:34 PM

Sieppo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ASW defensive action is far more effective in shallow waters, thus I always send my TFs through shallow areas to increase the chances of an effective ASW attack. I think the risk of hitting underwater objects is insignificant in comparison to either avoiding or killing a sub. I've never run aground, knock on wood. By the way, I'm assuming that the CV air restriction is applicable to only partial land hexes, whether they are deep water or shallow, am I right about that? Hal

This exactly..

I would also like to know about the CV restrictions? I have Kido Butai at Cape Gloucester and I have no problem attacking Port Moresby from there..

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 5/14/2013 3:22:25 PM >

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RE: Ships preferring deep water - 5/14/2013 4:15:46 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ASW defensive action is far more effective in shallow waters, thus I always send my TFs through shallow areas to increase the chances of an effective ASW attack. I think the risk of hitting underwater objects is insignificant in comparison to either avoiding or killing a sub. I've never run aground, knock on wood. By the way, I'm assuming that the CV air restriction is applicable to only partial land hexes, whether they are deep water or shallow, am I right about that? Hal

This exactly..

I would also like to know about the CV restrictions? I have Kido Butai at Cape Gloucester and I have no problem attacking Port Moresby from there..

Everything I've heard on the CV restriction says "coastal hexes", which to me means land in the hex.

I've often wondered whether reefs count, and whether some hexes actually have land in them.

I wouldn't be surprised if it just applied to shallow water hexes, but I've never really let it affect my operations - I can usually find a deep water hex with no reef/land to render my lack of clarity on the subject unimportant, or the objective is important enough to be worth the risk.

FWIW, from observation it seems to me that there needs to be land in the hex and not just shallow water. My CAP/strikes when operating between Java and Borneo, for example, don't seem to be reduced in strength.

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