Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Centuur

What's the best defence for France? That is an alignment of Yugoslavia on the Allied side. Greece isn't a backwater because of this. Germany can't ignore an Italian war in Greece if the CW can get 4 corps into it, especially since the Italians are not capable of conquering the Greeks in one turn if the turn is short (and it is going to be short in ND 1939), even with the German MTN at their side...
I'll gladly leave France alone as the Western allies to get those corps into Greece. An alignment of Yugoslavia is a problem for the Germans, because of the long borders that country has on Axis controlled area's. German controlled forces can't defend all positions there and keep a large force against the French at the same time.
If Germany ignores the Italian/Greek war and goes all out for France in N/D 1939, I'm not going to be to worried. That turn is short and the French should hold long enough for the CW to align the Yugoslavians and start moving Yugoslavian units into all kind of places the Axis don't want those units to appear. How nice it is to destroy oil fields in Austria, or factories in Munich. In M/A 1940 those CW corps will leave Greece and return to France...
I would suggest you look at the map and imagine what the two Yugoslavian corps with can leave that country can do as "kamikazes" against the Axis war effort...

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Thanks Orm.

COM = Current on map minor country air and land units.
MCL = minor country air and land units that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.
MCR = minor country air and land units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.


First of all minor country naval units are exempt from this rule.

So the formula for the number of minor country unit that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is:

The number of minor country air and land units that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is equal to half the current number of on map minor country units rounded up.

The current on map minor country air and land units / 2 = the number of minor country air and land units that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country (rounded up).

COM / 2 = MCL (rounded up).

And the formula for finding the number of minor country units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is:

The number of minor country air and land units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country is equal to the current number of on map minor country units minus the number of minor country unit that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.

The current number of on map minor country air and land units - the number of minor country unit that can leave or perform air missions outside the minor country = the number of minor country air and land units that cannot leave or perform air missions outside the minor country.

COM - MCL = MCR.


Since we are dealing with a hypothetical situation established by Orm with his set up.

With the Bulgarians able to take Solonica I couldn't land Italian units there because the Italians and Bulgarians do not co-operate.

The Alpini MTN (5-4) would still move east 2 hexes and establish the rail supply line through Bulgaria.

There would be no need for an invasion with the Italians at sea and they would shift one box down to the 3-sea box and remain at sea.

Orm it's your turn.

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brian brian let me help you brush up on your geography.
World Atlas ~ Map of Balkan Peninsula
The Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. | 2012 | ~ Balkan Peninsula
Encyclopedia Britannica ~ Balkan Peninsula

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As for the Italian units in North Africa that depends on what and where the French units are and what they do.

I didn't say the DoW of Greece in 1939 was a good strategy but it is a possibility and I'm sure we haven't checked out all the repercussions yet.

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The only reasonable time you stay at sea and shift down a box is at the end of the turn - which is what you obviously meant.

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Yugoslavia
The Commonwealth can declare that Yugoslavia is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Yugoslavia is neutral and there are a total of 4 or more Commonwealth corps in any adjacent countries.

France can declare that Yugoslavia is aligning with it during any Allied declaration of war step if Yugoslavia is neutral and there are a total of 4 or more French corps in any adjacent countries.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous


Orm please put the FTR2, SM.79 LND, Balbo HQ-I (3(3)3) back in Tirana and the X INF (3-3) back in Albania. They weren't moved because it took a combined action to move the Italians to sea.

As I understand you the German MTN railed down this impulse and the weather is fair again?

Germany aligns Hungary this impulse.



I'm having fun Orm how about you?

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ORIGINAL: Orm

A) I can put the units back if you want but first I want to ask you if you would still have picked a combined when you didn't use the fleet and didn't land or invade with the division. If you picked a land instead you can always send the fleet to sea in a later combined. And if you still decide to make an combined move then you will have two units available to move since the move reserved for the division was not used.

You are correct that the German MTN was railed this impulse and the weather is fair.

B) I am having fun otherwise I wouldn't participate. I do not mind rule discussions but I can get a bit annoyed when there is much rule discussion and less talk about tactics and strategy. Now when we are back to the issue of invading Greece late 1939 am I am having a really fun time.

I've decided that the CW has no available transports at this time. If CW picks a naval next impulse then CW can abort a TRS to port and reorganize it and use it the impulse after that. Hence there will be no new CW units available for Greece next allied impulse.

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19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.

Complete conquest
All naval units of a minor country remain under the control of their controlling major power. Treat them as units of that major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth).

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5.1 Trade agreements
Hungary
A neutral Hungary must supply Germany with its resource each turn (exception: see 19.6.2 Rumania).

Rumania
While neutral, Rumania supplies Germany with 2 oil resources and its other oil resource to Italy, each turn.

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19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.

Complete conquest
All naval units of a minor country remain under the control of their controlling major power. Treat them as units of that major power (British in the case of the Commonwealth).

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5.1 Trade agreements
Hungary
A neutral Hungary must supply Germany with its resource each turn (exception: see 19.6.2 Rumania).

Rumania
While neutral, Rumania supplies Germany with 2 oil resources and its other oil resource to Italy, each turn.

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CoiF option 76: The CoiF column in the above table is the number of tankers these minor countries start with. Reduce that number of SiF convoy points set up. (e.g. Finland sets up with 1 tanker and 2 convoy points).

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ORIGINAL: ORM

During the next Axis impulse I railed a German MTN to Salonika (if you want other rail moves I can change this). It is now the Axis land movement step. Axis rolled lucky with the weather and it is all fair and the impulse marker advances 1 step. Impulse marker is now on impulse #5. Turn can not end yet because it ends on a minus one.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian
1) and Germany loses 3 resources per turn from Russia. Russia then has perhaps a dozen extra BPs of units on the board to face a 1941 Barbarossa.

2) Activating Rumania in 1939 costs the Axis a 5 BP HQ unit....costs in Bulgaria would include a 3 BP INF.

3) Greek resource can not be transported until the Axis clears the hex NW of Athens, which probably won't happen until M/A 40 at best, and then only with Luftwaffe support or good luck on the dice. Counting on good luck is not usually good strategy, and the Luftwaffe will likely be in the Rhineland that turn.

4) About M/A 40 is about when the CW will be able to get a 4th corps (all cheap, quick MIL most likely) into Greece and activate Yugoslavia, while still contributing to a defense of France. By that time the French navy might have gotten some attrition accomplished vs. the Italian navy, and the long Allied coastlines in the Med will slowly become more secure; they are generally only threatened on the surprise impulse, so the French coasts are safe already. Though when I command the French, I sail their INF away from Beirut on their first impulse, so perhaps better temptation for Mussolini would have made Greece perfectly tranquil. Too bad the Italian army is stuck in land-locked Albania, and can only be extricated past wandering French battleships, which have nothing to lose.

5) Axis units defending the Yugoslavian border and Axis economic outposts in the Balkans can't simultaneously be in the border zone for the Nazi-Soviet pact. And, if they are, a ZoC from a Yugo unit makes them not count for pact totals, and that could get interesting. Serbs, inadvertently sparking a Russo<>German war, round 2, just as in 1914. The Red Army, already parked in Bessarabia though with a bloody nose from rolling poorly, and their bonus production, might as well stuff the border until at least Sep/Oct 40. This would probably have little chance of success, but could force the Germans to build more ground units than they might want to, especially with the nice large, free Merchant Marine the CW will be enjoying. The Wehrmacht would be summoned to the western front, the eastern front, and the southern front simultaneously. Yugoslavian ZOC from their CAV or sneaky MTN could threaten the Axis rail supply line to northern Greece at many points. The Yugos would enjoy their interior lines and the strategy benefits from that quite a bit. So would the CW, with their potential +2 BP bounce. They could build even more MIL or INF (much easier without needing to build convoy points), maybe land one in Dubrovnik on the Croatian coast. Italy would have a not simple job of transporting their coal out of the Pola hex....finally, the French SUB has something to do, if they weren't too busy lurking off of Sardinia.

6) US entry would have taken a hit from a Russian DOW on Rumania, but the Axis issuing not-required 3x DOWs on minors, one on a major power, and aligning three minor countries would probably compensate for that. With 1939 USE chits in play, literally anything is possible, including American first gear-up in early 1940. And that spells D-O-O-M

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In each turn, Germany must lend lease 2 build points to the USSR while the USSR must supply Germany with 7 resources (2 of them must be oil). These numbers can change if circumstances vary. For each of:
• Bulgaria
• Hungary
• Rumania
that an Axis major power either declares war on or aligns with (see 9.7, 9.8 and 19), reduce the number of resources the USSR must supply by 1 (minimum 0). Reduce the ordinary resources before you reduce any oil resources.

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26. The USSR controls Eastern Poland (There is a 70% chance a USA entry chit will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy eastern Poland during any Allied land movement step. However, it can only exercise those rights if Poland has not been conquered (see 19.5.1 Eastern Poland).

27. The USSR controls Nazi-Soviet Pact areas (Baltic States) (There is a 40% chance a USA entry chit will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
The USSR can exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) during any Allied land movement step after it has exercised its rights to eastern Poland. You can only exercise your rights over those states that are neutral (see 19.5.2 Baltic States).

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ORIGINAL: Centuur
A) On 1 and 2: The loss of three oil points bombed away in Ploesti in S/O 1939 has to be taken into account also. This can hamper German/Italian production or activities in 1939 - 1940, because especially the Germans need oil to reorganise planes, HQ's and possible disrupted mechanised units. Question is always for Germany: do I use the oil for production or do I save it for reorganisation purposes.
Why not simply give in to Russian aggression about Bessarabia? It is the safest and economically the best solution in 1939. Italy doesn't receive any Rumanian oil in SO 1939 because of a Russo-Rumanian War and before the Italians are at war with France or the CW the Germans can't make a trade agreement with Italy. Since Italy isn't in the war at start of the N/D 1939 turn in your example, this means that the Italians are really hampered in the actions they take against Greece or France because they have only one oil point available to them (which is the at start oil point). So the disruption of to many Italian air, navy HQ's and mechanised units means that those aren't going to be reorganised.
I tend to align Hungary as soon as I can (getting 4 land units from them to garrison the border and Poland). The garrison ratio from the USSR with Germany is not very important. 4 Hungarians, the SS INF and a German MTN, together with the German Flying Boat will give a Garrison value of 9. In 1939 the USSR can't break the pact and in 1940 the USSR needs 36! If I want to make sure the USSR aren't getting anywhere, I can even rail one or two of the low factor German GAR units from the West towards Warsaw to make this amount a staggering 44! Count all units available to the USSR at start and look at the build program it needs to take into account (ARM first) to see the time it will take the USSR to get that amount of units on the border.
Also I want to get the Rumanian HQ and the extra Bulgarian INF for free, which is economically equal to 10 Production Points coming out of Greece. That's a whole year of Greek occupation (for which you need a garrison too, to prevent Partisan activity. Even with the Yugoslavians on the Axis side (which I don't think is possible with good CW play) it still takes half a year to provide the PP needed...

B) On 3: In WiF economics are very, very important. Each turn the CW can prevent the Italians/Germans from using the Greek resource is important. Also, the hex NW of Athens is vital for a good defence of Athens and should be defended until the last Greek isn't standing anymore, thus preventing the use of the resource to the Axis.

C) On 4: No war between the CW and Italy is especially what the CW needs to get the fourth corps into Greece. It should be able to get one or two into Greece in the first turn of the war (by reorganisation of TRS if needed). Two or three others should be sent from wherever they are at that moment. I believe it is quite possible to get the fourth into Greece in J/F 1940. Since that is a short turn and weather is going to be bad in the northern parts of Europe, I don't think the Germans can pull of a succesfull assault on France, so I will weaken those defenses there and probably of the UK also. What I always will do with the CW is to empty the MIL forcepool as soon as possible, because both the Sidney and London MIL are quite nice units to have on the map. The one thing the CW needs to get access to is land units it can use as cheap loss takers. After alignment of Yugoslavia, I will leave the Greeks to themselves and start evacuating those units back to France, where they should reappear again in M/A. In time for the German onslaught there (it's a small gamble, but I think this is possible)...

D) On 5: The Axis can't afford not to prepare for a possible allied alignment of Yugoslavia. Axis units have to defend places like Budapest, Bucharest, Sofia, Ploesti, Vienna/Bratislava, Trieste, Albania. Loss of any those areas is harmful to the Axis economy or to the Axis war effort in Greece.

E) On 6: I expect the USSR to control Eastern Poland (since it is stupid not to do before the fall of Poland). I don't expect the USSR to control the Baltics before 1940, because of the fact the USSR can cancel the Pact and DoW Germany if it declares war on any of the Baltic States or if a German controlled unit enters those countries...

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ORIGINAL: Centuur

B: it is enough to get a ZOC into the hex NE of the Greek resource hex to block it's transportation over land. Now if the Italians want to ship it overseas, they can do so, but for that we have the French navy for use against the Italian convoys. How nice if there's going to be a gun battle between the French and the Italian navy...

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The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

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ORIGINAL: Centuur

B: it is enough to get a ZOC into the hex NE of the Greek resource hex to block it's transportation over land. Now if the Italians want to ship it overseas, they can do so, but for that we have the French navy for use against the Italian convoys. How nice if there's going to be a gun battle between the French and the Italian navy...

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The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

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The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC. If the resource is in the same hex as the destination factory, it can be used there regardless of enemy ZOCs.

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The resource’s move can only enter or leave a hex in an enemy ZOC if there is a friendly land unit in the hex. Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

What part of: "Its move must stop when it enters an enemy ZOC." is hard to understand? Are you inferring that once moving, the ability to leave overrides "must stop"?

It can leave a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It can enter a ZOC only if a friendly unit is in the hex. It cannot move further if it enters an enemy ZOC.

Be my guest at trying to write that in a more understandable fashion using the same or less number of words.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Is this what you mean

An enemy ZOC prevents a resource from:
1 - entering and leaving a hex, unless a friendly land unit is present,
2 - moving from one enemy ZOC to another,
3 - moving through a hex, under all other conditions.

In this case if you don't use "and" you have 2 conditions "either this" or "that".

Sorry, I used more words but I think it is clearer.

If a friendly factory is in a ZOC from the Northeast and the resource's move came from the southwest the resource could enter the factory because it would stop when it entered the enemy ZOC (the factory).