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TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 4:36:03 AM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		OK, I've played enough to have a decent feel for what the range of a TF should be, particularly the merchants. I've looked it up in the manual, but it doesn't seem to address what I want to know - maybe misread it, looked around in every applicable section, tried to nail this down, so here we go:

* On the TF screen: "m/c" (upper LH) - mission and cruise, I believe - in hexes, I believe.

* The discussion on Endurance leads me to believe that the manual is saying different ship types and maybe some other conditions do not translate to a linear conversion, i. e., the mix in a TF affects the overall TF Endurance. Still, if I have an xAK, say, with 6000 Endurance, is there an approximation to convert 6000 (I see it as 6000 nautical miles) and other values? If a hex is 45 miles across (statute miles? - and let's not get into the actual geometry of a hex; easy enough to figure for each possible instance of what 'across' may mean, but I haven't done it) - then a hex covers a little less than 1600 square miles, treating it as a circle with a 22.5 mi radius, and thus I may regard a 4500 Endurance as 100 hexes, give or take some other factors?

* As I said, I'm usually pretty comfortable with my ranges, but this was prompted by a convoy going Full speed from Cookstown to Port Moresby (it's a dangerous run & offload), showing 18, I believe for hexes (round trip) and me with enough for 13 - PM is 9 hexes, so I can make it there but will be adrift halfway back, for which I'm loading what scant Fuel is available in NE Australia (early April 42) and hope to meet with some xAKs collecting it.

And if any kind gent wants to spell out range/hex info on the TF screen, please feel free.

Thanks,
HH

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired
Post #: 1
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 5:32:21 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 837
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline 		m/c is Max/Cruise = movement in hexes for these speeds.

Endurance/40 = hexes a ship can travel. So an endurance of 6000 = 150 hexes.

A TF set to max speed will use 4 times the fuel for each hex as it does at cruise speed.
13 hexes at max speed = 52 hexes at cruise = an endurance of about 2080 for the TF( there could be some round off errors here)

Note that mission speed uses cruise speed except for some special cases( full speed run in and out on the last day for bombardment missions, etc. )

_____________________________

“Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” ― Lucius Annaeus Seneca

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 2
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 5:49:37 AM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		AFAICS, the knots indicated for Mission & Full (max?) are the same, i. e., a given vessel displaying 15 kt for Full also displays 15 kt for Mission - I haven't niggled over this because I'm mostly concerned with the result, and the manual's discussion is not unclear, but I blasted thru it & concluded that Mission, regardless of calculations, is, as we all use it, your 'normal' speed used for most voyages (which is how I've used it since the beginning). I did read the bit about different rates for Night & Day for Mission, if I have that right & understand about the 'last-leg rush'.

I would hazard, if I have it right, that Mission uses Cruise at night and Full during the day, thus 'averaging out' to Mission.

Feel free to correct me.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)
Post #: 3
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 5:57:05 AM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		And if I'm reading right, a TF with at least one vessel at 0 Endurance travels one (1) hex per day, meaning, of course, a one ship TF at 0 will still make 1 hex per day.

I could swear I've had TFs 'adrift', going not at all, but maybe I didn't pick up on something.

Of course, I am excluding any fill ups from other vessels here. I have sent people out to retrieve people at times - not very often, mostly with PTs.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 4
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 6:25:12 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 837
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline 		Read section 6.2.3 and section 6.2.5 in the manual. This should clarify some things for you.

Your guess is wrong. TFs set for mission speed will travel at cruise speed both during the night and day phase, unless it fits one of the exceptions listed in the manual.

I realize that the display is a bit misleading, but I don't see how they could have changed it. At mission speed, the TF will travel at cruise speed most of the time,
but can travel at max speed at times. I can't see how you could change the display to indicate that using just two character spaces? So they used the max speed.

_____________________________

“Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” ― Lucius Annaeus Seneca

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 5
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 7:41:19 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		1. On map, a land hex is 46 statute miles across. On map, a sea hex is 40 nautical miles across.

2. A Task Force can be set to travel at

(a) Full Speed, or

(b) Cruise Speed, or

(c) Mission Speed

Both the Full and Cruise Speed settings are fixed with the actual rate of travel speed determined by the engine and state of the slowest vessel in the TF. The Mission Speed setting is not fixed but is variable. A TF set to Mission Speed will travel, both day and night phases, at the Cruise Speed setting except when certain tactical considerations come into play at which point the TF shifts to the Full Speed setting for that relevant phase. Once the tactical consideration has passed, the TF auto reverts to the Cruise Speed setting. See s.6.2.5 of the manual for the sort of tactical considerations which will trigger an auto shift from Cruise to Full for a TF set to the Mission Speed setting.

3. On the ship screen, the top right hand column lists two different numbers for Max Speed and Cruise Speed. The first number is the distance, measured in nautical miles per hour, the ship can make at that setting. The second number inside the brackets, is the distance measured in sea hexes per 12 hour phase, the ship can make at that setting.

4. Where the manual discusses averaging speeds, it is describing how the two different measuring standards are reconciled with each other. For all practical travel calculations the player should only take into account the listed hex movement rate when attempting to determine an E. The nautical miles movement rate is really of tactical combat consideration concern only. Accordingly if the destination distance is 100 hexes away and the TF hex movement rate is (2), the TF will need approximately 25 days (each day having two phases) to get there. Approximate because

(a) the reconciliation between the two different measuring standards may see the distance travelled in a single phase go up or down.

(b) whether auto refuelling occurs

(c) an auto change in travel route occurs

(d) if set to Mission Speed, whether the tactical considerations referred to in point 2 above come into play.

5. The number listed under ship endurance is the distance, measured in nautical miles travelling at the cruise speed rating, the ship can make before completely running out of fuel. Accordingly if a ship has listed a 4000 endurance, that means the ship can travel 100 hexes (4000/40) at its cruise speed rating.

6. For ease of gameplay (and coding effort too) a ship which is totally out of fuel can travel 1 hex per day. The cost is much more severe damage to the ship accrued daily, to the point that an out of fuel ship far from the nearest refuelling source, can sink at sea from the accumulated damage resulting from the lack of fuel.

Alfred

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)
Post #: 6
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 7:18:49 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Thank you, Alfred.

Ever wanted to be a technical writer?

Here's a discussion of "across":

* The hexes are laid out with the greatest width being N-S, i. e., the 'pointy ends' N-S. Let us call this the 'pointy width' of the hex, or PW.

* E-W is the width per the 'flats'. Let us call this the 'flat width', or FW.

The hex can be described as six equilateral triangles.

* If PW is 40 nm, then each leg of the triangle(s) is 20 nm. Each altitude of a triangle is 17.3 nm, the N-S distance across is 40 nm (by definition) and the E-W is 34.6 nm. The area would be (20^2)*3*radical 3, or about 2,078 square nautical miles.

* If FW is 40 nm, then each altitude of the triangle(s) is 20 nm (by definition). Each leg of a triangle is 23.1 nm, the N-S distance across is 46.2 nm and the E-W is 40 nm (by definition). The area would be (23.1^2)*3*radical 3, or about 2,772 square nautical miles.

So, which orientation do we mean by "across"?


*****

So my 'circle' approx. for area was off more than a bit - very 'rough 'n ready'.

2000 - 2700 nm squared would be about the size of Connecticut, off the top of my head, or about twice Rhode Island. Not a small area at all. LCUs, TFs and Air Groups have plenty of room to miss each other.

< Message edited by HexHead -- 5/26/2013 7:22:22 PM >

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 7
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 7:30:51 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

Thank you, Alfred.

Ever wanted to be a technical writer?

Here's a discussion of "across":

* The hexes are laid out with the greatest width being N-S, i. e., the 'pointy ends' N-S. Let us call this the 'pointy width' of the hex, or PW.

* E-W is the width per the 'flats'. Let us call this the 'flat width', or FW.

The hex can be described as six equilateral triangles.

* If PW is 40 nm, then each leg of the triangle(s) is 20 nm. Each altitude of a triangle is 17.3 nm, the N-S distance across is 40 nm (by definition) and the E-W is 34.6 nm. The area would be (20^2)*3*radical 3, or about 2,078 square nautical miles.

* If FW is 40 nm, then each altitude of the triangle(s) is 20 nm (by definition). Each leg of a triangle is 23.1 nm, the N-S distance across is 46.2 nm and the E-W is 40 nm (by definition). The area would be (23.1^2)*3*radical 3, or about 2,772 square nautical miles.

So, which orientation do we mean by "across"?



I took geometry in 10th grade in 1974, so grain of salt. But these are regular hexagons. The distance between any vertex and the one across from it are the same for all vertices. The distance between points on opposite sides is also equal regardless of orientation. No? The distance between any two opposite sides, in any compass direction, is 40 NM. In terms of the code I don't know if any intra-hex subdivisions are necessary in x,y calculations. Yardage for fire-control or A2A is outside the hex system, or that has always been my impression.

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The Moose

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Post #: 8
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 7:40:58 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		EDIT: Just reread your post - per The distance between any two opposite sides, in any compass direction, is 40 NM

If that is so, by game definition, then my inquiry is settled. This is the pertinent calc, then:

If FW is 40 nm, then each altitude of the triangle(s) is 20 nm (by definition). Each leg of a triangle is 23.1 nm, the N-S distance across is 46.2 nm and the E-W is 40 nm (by definition). The area would be (23.1^2)*3*radical 3, or about 2,772 square nautical miles.

I just worked out two cases. I leave the rest below for reference for others, if needed.

*****************************************************


CLARIFICATION: the legs and altitudes are two different line segments and magnitudes. take an equilateral triangle, let one side be parallel to the deck - that's your base (a side, or leg of the triangle). The altitude is the drop from the opposite vertex to the midpoint of the base and is a normal to the base, as we math heads say, i. e., is at 90 degrees to the base.

< Message edited by HexHead -- 5/26/2013 7:53:55 PM >

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 9
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 7:49:34 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

Sorry, Bull, but I don't think so.

Without going into a diagram, the distance across opposite vertices is greater than across opposite sides.

It is, sure. But there is no difference betwen vertices or between sides, class-wise.

Take the game hex: N-S are opposite vertices; that distance is greater than E-W, opposite sides.

Sure. But that's not relevant to the 40 NM issue. That number is between opposite sides, all points on the sides. Not vertices. Whatever the distance is between opposite vertices--and I'll trust your math--it isn't relevant to the hex movement code as far as I know. Ships move across sides, center to center.

N/S, E/W being 'absolute', i. e., per hex orientation on the map, not compass.

Do the geometry and arithmetic - I worked it out about an hour ago and double checked my figures. Trust me, I'm correct; I would be thunderstruck if shown otherwise.

I'm sure you are. But in terms of the info screen displays showing max hex capability per turn, it's sides.

Edit: look at a TF planned route when you assign a destination. Side-to-side, never vertex-to-vertex.



< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 5/26/2013 7:50:10 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 10
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 7:54:05 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		"across" means 30°, 90°, 150°, 210°, 270° and 330°

Movement is not possible across the vertices, the 40nm apply to the distance of the hexsides.

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Post #: 11
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 8:01:10 PM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Bull, see my edits above - and the same for LoBaron - if the case is 40 nm across a side (no travel 'cross "points" is an excellent observation), then it's settled and feel free to use the arithmetic if you wish.

Verging on 2800 square nautical miles is a really good sized hex.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 12
RE: TF Endurance - 5/26/2013 8:24:57 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HexHead

Bull, see my edits above - and the same for LoBaron - if the case is 40 nm across a side (no travel 'cross "points" is an excellent observation), then it's settled and feel free to use the arithmetic if you wish.

Verging on 2800 square nautical miles is a really good sized hex.


WITP was 60, so it's better. There are sometimes calls for 10-miles, or even 1-mile, but at that point the map is unplayable without a whole new UI.

When I first started playing I had trouble getting into my head that cross-hex-side combat wasn't possible. A naval rifle with a 20-NM range couldn't shoot at a TF in the next hex. It's still an abstraction that a lot of players forget when they argue for pure historical accuracy. There is a lot of chance involved in move-then-fire. The AE code was re-done so while-transiting encounters can happen. WITP didn't have this. But if you stop in your destination hex and there's a bad guy next door, except for React code, you can't hit him. Thinking of center-to-center can help you stay sane. Thinking the other guy could be 100 yards away across the hex side and you can read his newspaper but can't fire--that leads to madness.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to HexHead)
Post #: 13
RE: TF Endurance - 5/27/2013 1:11:36 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		HexHead,

Andrew brown is the dev entrusted with all things map orientated. If you want further clarification/discussion on this hex issue which is authoritative, I suggest you open a new thread with a suitable title to attract his attention. He probably has missed this entire discussion located deep in an endurance titled thread. He doesn't visit the forums as regularly anymore but when he does he seems to predominantly drop into the Modders sub forum. Most of the other devs congregate around there mainly nowadays so that if you post there and Andrew Brown doesn't respond, one of the other devs might.

Alfred

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 14
RE: TF Endurance - 5/27/2013 1:30:31 AM   
HexHead

 

Posts: 464
Joined: 2/9/2010
From: I'm from New Hampshire; I only work in cyberspace
Status: offline 		Thanks, Alfred. I'll keep this for future reference - think I'm all set, though, as far as the size of a hex goes.

_____________________________

"Goddamn it, they're gittin' away!!"
- unknown tincan sailor near the end of Leyte Gulf, when Kurita retired

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 15
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