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Musashi Super Weapon - 1/6/2003 2:36:14 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		I read recently that the Musashi took some ridiculous number of hits during the battle of Leyte, like 27 torpedoes and 29 bombs before she slowed down to 6 knots and the captain ordered for her to be run aground and used as a shore battery. She ended up sinking before she was run aground.
Has anyone seen the Yamato or Musashi take that kind of damage and survive in UV? Or any ship for that matter?
Post #: 1
Re: Musashi Super Weapon - 1/6/2003 3:32:30 AM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B]I read recently that the Musashi took some ridiculous number of hits during the battle of Leyte, like 27 torpedoes and 29 bombs before she slowed down to 6 knots and the captain ordered for her to be run aground and used as a shore battery. She ended up sinking before she was run aground.
Has anyone seen the Yamato or Musashi take that kind of damage and survive in UV? Or any ship for that matter? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, the Transports. :eek:

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 2
- 1/6/2003 3:54:34 AM   
Howard Mitchell


Posts: 449
Joined: 6/3/2002
From: Blighty
Status: offline 		The Musashi was sunk after a series of attacks with up to 30 minutes between them. After 5 attacks she had taken 9 torpedoes, 7 bombs and around 12 near misses, and though slowed to 12 knots was not in danger of sinking. The final attack by 75 aircraft added 11 torpedo and 10 bomb hits as well as 6 near misses. She still took nearly 5 hours to capsize after that.

The sinking of the Musashi was an object lesson to US experts. The number of bomb and torpedo hits required to sink the ship amazed US designers. A careful analysis of her last few hours resulted in a memorandum and briefing by a damage survey team from the US Navy’s Bureau of Ships to the effect that torpedo attacks against large warships should be concentrated on one side to maximize the tendency to capsize. Torpedo hits on both sides of capital ships tend to have the effect of counter-flooding, thereby offsetting the effects of flooding.

This advice was instrumental in the sinking of the Yamato several months later, which was sunk by 13 torpedoes (11 certain, 2 probable), 8 confirmed bomb hits and an unknown number of near misses, and sank within 2 hours of the start of the attacks.

In both cases the bombs had little or no impact in terms of sinking the ships – that was done by torpedoes. The bombs reduced the ships ability to defend themselves by destroying the anti-aircraft armament and its controls and killing or injuring large numbers of crew.

Source – Axis and Neutral Battleships of WWII, by Garzke and Dulin, Naval Institute Press.

_____________________________

While the battles the British fight may differ in the widest possible ways, they invariably have two common characteristics – they are always fought uphill and always at the junction of two or more map sheets.

General Sir William Slim

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 3
- 1/6/2003 6:22:41 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		I had the Musashi take one torpedo by a PT boat and the AI took her out of the battleline with 18 sys damage.

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Post #: 4
- 1/6/2003 7:59:55 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		You're right, it's 17 and 19 hits. I just double checked my numbers in Costello's [U]The Pacific War 1941-1945[/U] . At least the sources are close enough there is no point disagreeing about them.

The bomb hits also had the benefit of hitting the bridge and killing much of the command staff.

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Post #: 5
- 1/6/2003 10:56:00 AM   
rawink

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/30/2002
From: Tallahassee, FL
Status: offline 		in an AI Game, My Surface group got into a slugging match with a IJN group.. afterwards, ALL of my 5 BB's were ripped up badly and had to limp to Noumea, 2 went to Pearl :mad:

the IJN force lost an old BB "Kirishma?" and the Yamato was slowed down and given a DD for escourt. The battle happened off of Tassaforonga.. and it took Yamato 3 turns to get past Shortland Is.

now comes the fun part.. I have a 4 CV TF headed for the slot.. and for 12 turns I battered the yamato.. with 2 or 3 bomb hits per raid, and usually a torp or two. The AAA on Ymato butchered my flgihts as well.

I finally quit giving chase once I was within land based air cover of TRUK! dang Yamato made truk, and i assume Tokyo since I havent seen her since.

My GOD she was tough!

_____________________________

Robert
Fly, die.. rinse and repeat

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 6
- 1/6/2003 12:23:53 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		I hit Mushasi the other day with 5 1,000 pound bombs all acheaved a penatration, and she showed as Heavly damaged with lots of enternal exploshiosn and masive cashulaties, After that atack I could not find her again.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 7
- 1/6/2003 12:37:05 PM   
BowdenRussell

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/9/2000
From: Pacific Palisades, California, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B]You're right, it's 17 and 19 hits. I just double checked my numbers in Costello's [U]The Pacific War 1941-1945[/U] . At least the sources are close enough there is no point disagreeing about them.

The bomb hits also had the benefit of hitting the bridge and killing much of the command staff. [/B][/QUOTE]


Trust nothing you read in Costello's book. One could write a book on the errors and editing mistakes alone on that piece of fecal matter.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 8
Book - 1/6/2003 8:04:31 PM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		THE book to get on the Musashi is:-

"Battleship Musashi: The making and sinking of the world's biggest battleship"
By Akira Yoshimura. ISBN 4-7700-2400-2.

Takes you through the planning stages of the ship, building her and her service in WW2. One of the few books that I would recommend.

_____________________________




Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 9
- 1/6/2003 8:09:52 PM   
thantis

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Cooksville, MD
Status: offline 		The near misses were almost as good as hit on the Yamato - both ships (Y & M) were constructed with too little flexibility in their armor design, meaning that near misses were almost able to shake the ships apart, causing flooding & structural issues during the attacks.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon.....

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 10
Sometimes, it just ain't a fair fight... - 1/6/2003 9:41:30 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		I had a feeling my opponent had some heavies in the area to mess with my boys on Guadalcanal, so I stripped my carriers of their screening cruisers, and set the TF to React. (I love react).

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 11/30/42

Weather: Partly Cloudy

Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese Ships
BB Musashi, Shell hits 19, on fire, heavy damage
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 6, on fire
CL Natori, Shell hits 1
DD Akigumo, Shell hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kagero, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tanikaze, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Oshio, Shell hits 14, on fire, heavy damage
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 12, on fire, heavy damage
DD Murasame, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kawakaze, Shell hits 17, and is sunk
DD Mikazuki, Shell hits 16, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB South Dakota, Shell hits 1
CA Pensacola
CA New Orleans
CA Astoria
CA San Francisco, Shell hits 1
CA Vincennes, Shell hits 1
CA Canberra
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
CL Phoenix, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CL Nashville, Shell hits 3
CL Boise
CL Honolulu, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Fletcher
DD Duncan
DD Lansdowne
DD McCalla
DD Patterson
DD Gridley
DD Craven


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese Ships
BB Musashi, Shell hits 27, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 30, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 17, on fire, heavy damage
DD Akigumo, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
DD Kagero, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DD Tanikaze, Shell hits 17, on fire, heavy damage
DD Oshio, and is sunk
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 7, and is sunk
DD Murasame, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DD Yudachi, Shell hits 9, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB South Dakota
CA Pensacola
CA New Orleans
CA Astoria
CA San Francisco
CA Vincennes
CA Canberra
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
CL Phoenix, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Nashville
CL Boise
CL Honolulu, on fire
DD Fletcher
DD Duncan
DD Lansdowne
DD McCalla
DD Patterson
DD Gridley
DD Craven


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lunga at 38,40

Japanese Ships
BB Musashi, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
CL Natori, Shell hits 29, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tanikaze, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB South Dakota
CA Pensacola
CA New Orleans
CA Astoria
CA San Francisco
CA Vincennes
CA Canberra
CL Helena
CL Phoenix, on fire, heavy damage
CL Nashville
CL Boise
CL Honolulu, on fire
DD Fletcher
DD Duncan
DD Lansdowne
DD McCalla
DD Patterson
DD Gridley
DD Craven

I lost track of how many 16"/45cal Musashi took after 20... God loves a good surprise.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 11
- 1/6/2003 9:50:53 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]In both cases the bombs had little or no impact in terms of sinking the ships – that was done by torpedoes. The bombs reduced the ships ability to defend themselves by destroying the anti-aircraft armament and its controls and killing or injuring large numbers of crew.[/QUOTE]

Not true for Yamato. The second bomb to hit her was 1000 pounder that started a fire in her upper 6" magazine. The fire was not controllable or containable, and is the most likely cause of an explosion of her #3 main magazine. She'd have sunk that day as a result of this one bomb, but of course, there's never just one bomb. See the Yamato record on the BB tactical record of movment page at:

[url]www.combinedfleet.com[/url]

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 12
Yamato - 1/6/2003 11:49:43 PM   
Michael Walker

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 6/27/2002
Status: offline 		Recently I received the Yamato in one of my Pbem games... It received 3 percentage points of damage just sortying from Truk on its mission. Somehow, the computer did a lousy job of setting up its bombardment mission to PM and it was in air range just prior to attacking. It was hit with 3 1000lb bombs. Total damage: now up to 4 %. 3 1000lb bombs did 1/3 the damage of just sailing down to New Guinea!

Mike

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 13
- 1/7/2003 12:58:11 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Interesting, but not necessarily all that wierd. The historical killer bomb could be viewed as one that hit an unusual location under situations that were not fortuitous for the IJN. In effect, a critical hit indeed! However, 3 bombs striking her in other sectiosn (atop a main battery carapace, for instance) would kill personnel and chip the paint. Of course, the bombs could also easily destroy the AA and main fire directors (as happened to both Yamato and Musashi), and wipe out AAA positions.

Taking 3% sys damage for sortieing is not all that wierd, IMO. Yamato and her sisters' propulsion systems were inefficient and required very high maintenance. The problem worsened as lousy fuel became the standard in the late war.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 14
Re: Yamato - 1/7/2003 2:04:30 AM   
Yamamoto

 

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Walker
[B]Somehow, the computer did a lousy job of setting up its bombardment mission to PM and it was in air range just prior to attacking.

Mike [/B][/QUOTE]

It wasn’t the AI’s fault that Yamato started the turn within enemy air range. Yamato only goes 27.5 knots. Any ship under 30 knots will have to start the turn within enemy air range. Still, that’s better than previous versions of UV where the ship would ALWAYS start outside of enemy air range and, if it wasn’t fast enough to do the bombardment, it would sit there forever. I much prefer the current system.

Yamamoto

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 15
- 1/7/2003 2:52:50 AM   
SoulBlazer

 

Posts: 839
Joined: 10/27/2002
From: Providence RI
Status: offline 		I happen to REALLY like Costello's book, and since I have a MA in American History and used the book to help write my thesis on Carrier Operations in the Pacific War, I only spotted a few errors. (As opposed to Victory at Sea, which is riddled with them). What did'nt you like about the book?

As for sinking the Musashi, that's a amazing surface battle, you got lucky. :)

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 16
- 1/7/2003 3:01:51 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Does anyone know if there has been taken pictures of the sunken Yamato and Musashi?

Robert Ballard has been all over the world and photographed and written books about sunken ships.
I specially liked his book The lost ships at Guadalcanal!

Attachment (1)

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

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Post #: 17
- 1/7/2003 3:06:07 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]Not true for Yamato. The second bomb to hit her was 1000 pounder that started a fire in her upper 6" magazine. The fire was not controllable or containable, and is the most likely cause of an explosion of her #3 main magazine. She'd have sunk that day as a result of this one bomb, but of course, there's never just one bomb. See the Yamato record on the BB tactical record of movment page at:

[url]www.combinedfleet.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]


No 1000ILB bomb was capable of direct penetration of Yamato's primary armor deck. The hit that started a fire in Yamato's 6 inch magazine aft was caused by a bomb that impacted (and exploded) directly on the aft 6 inch gunhouse, demolishing the turret and starting a very large fire which was left to burn. Hot splinters from the detonation did enter the magazine and was reputed to start a blaze that was also unfought. This occured approximately around 1245 hours.

It was not until around 1405-1415 hours that warning buzzers went off on the bridge alerting the crew that temperatures in the aft magazines was reaching dangerous levels. Attempts to flood the magazines proved impossible due to the heavy flooding damage caused by the torpedo hits, particularily the final attack wave

At this point Yamato was near dead in the water and listing 22 degrees, increasing steadily. In other words the inability to flood the aft magazines was moot in face of the heavy progressive flooding. She was in a sinking condition and doomed.

The bomb hit(s) were no more "Killer" than they were on Musashi. Given the sheer amount of time that elapsed between the bomb hit that demolished the aft 6 inch turret and the sounding of temperature alarms in the aft magazines, I suspect that the "Fire" in the aft 6 inch magazine was only of the small smouldering type (the type of fire usually caused by hot splinter fragments). Had it been of a larger order, the alarms would have sounded far sooner. Either way the result would have been the flooding of the magazines as at that point in time, The machinery had not been disabled by list or level of progressive flooding.

Source: Axis and Neutral battleships of WWII

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 18
- 1/7/2003 3:58:00 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		I didnt find that many errors in Costello either, I thought it was well written and an enjoyable read. I also have a B.A. in History so I think I am a somewhat critical reader. I'm curious why you dislike Costello so much.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 19
- 1/7/2003 4:03:28 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		Maybe he's confused with Elvis -- Costello that is.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 20
- 1/7/2003 1:57:47 PM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
Joined: 7/21/2001
From: Connecticut, USA
Status: offline 		PzB,

I haven't yet found any pictures of the sunken Yamato and Musashi, though I do know that the Nipponese went down and visited it back in the 80's. There is an accurate drawing of it, however, in Jan Skulski's (sp?) "Anatomy of the Ship: Battleship Yamato." I found it kind of traumatic to look at...that proud ship lying all twisted on the bottom. Anyway, that particular book, long heralded by many as the definitive modeler's guide to Yamato, has line drawings of just about every rivet on the external structure. Unfortunately, we don't know that much about the construction of the inner compartments, since the Nipponese burned everything when the US came. There should be some photos somewhere, if only you could track down the name of that group--I think they had a website up a while ago but the link is broken now.

My wife's mother's brother (I guess that makes him my uncle in law?) was actually a crewmember on board Musashi, but he went down with the ship.

_____________________________

"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"

--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.

(in reply to Snigbert)
Post #: 21
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