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RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory

 
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RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/2/2013 1:34:52 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Ship handling due to too many tubes, as well as the fact that they reached the point of diminishing returns with tubes 13 through 15. Also, the 15-tubers sucked up ammo like nobody's business.

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Post #: 151
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/2/2013 2:52:28 PM   
Don Bowen


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Friedman is a good source for US cruiser designs between World War I and the onset of cruiser limitations.

The perceived missions were escort of the battle line, scouting, attack (these three with DD Flotillas), plus protection of line of communications.

If the wartime BB/BC programs had been completed the number of cruisers required would have been very high. Somewhere over 70 units, depending on planning. Up to 20 of these for line-of-communications.

Early designs revolved around three general types:
1. Improved Omaha with centerline 6inch twin turrets.
2. Smaller Destroyer Leaders with single 6inch in traditional Destroyer layout.
3. Larger "Hawkins replies" of up to 10,000 tons with twin 8inch on the centerline.

This last set of designs resembled the eventual Pensacola layout.

I believe that, unfettered by treaties, the USN would have produced these three types in quantity. Growth in size would have been inevitable, due to both endurance considerations and responses to foreign designs. Both 6inch and 8inch variations would grow to Baltimore/Cleveland size during the 1930s.

There is no evidence of interest in larger caliber main guns. Any such interest would have been suppressed by the treaties, of course.

I believe USN cruiser development would have followed pretty much historical lines, with increases in size and armor but not necessarily main gun caliber.

Desire for increases in main gun caliber would come primarily as replies to foreign construction (real or imagined).

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Post #: 152
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/2/2013 5:52:17 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JuanG
With regards to this, how would the non-availability of a rapid fire 6in like the US 6in/47 change your decisions? If the choice was between say the British 8in/50 Mk8 vs the 6in/50 Mk22 or the Japanese 8in/50 3YT vs the 15cm/50 41YT?

If this sort of scenario leads the UK and Japan to adopt 8in or something else, how likely do you think the US will be move to this standard simply to not 'get left behind' (even though we know that the 6in cruisers were just as effective in wartime).

Hi Juan,
Well, just looking at guns in a vacuum, I would have to agree with you; bigger is indeed better, in many ways, but size has its own consquences . Think Don has it right, that people would build 6” cruisers, qua cruisers, in quantity, because the missions require lots of them. So I would still predict gobs of 6-8,000 tonners (which can be built in quantity) with 6” guns (because of weight and the need for high endurance). These would be flotilla leaders, tactical fleet scouts, trade patrol/protection, and far foreign station vessels; classic cruiser missions.

8” guns would grow the sizes (i.e., can’t build as many) and increase the weight (i.e., require more HP and/or reduce endurance and habitability). IIrc the Brits wanted to scrap the Hawkins class in 1919 as unsuitable for post-war service. They finished them anyway (as an economy measure !), but didn’t they refit one or two of them as ordinary 6” light cruisers?

I do agree that some people would play around with 8” cruisers, but wonder if development of that whole category wasn’t “spawned” by the Treaty and then shoehorned into a mission after the fact. I truly believe this whole idea of heavily armored 8" gun cruisers was a Treaty artifact, and had no definable tactical or strategic purpose. Wasn’t the 8”/50 Mk VIII designed specifically for the UK Treaty cruisers? With impossible-to-achieve weight/train/rof requirements and a defective barrel design?

Gun/mount/turret design is based on the ship design. In the absence of Treaty cruisers, would the 8”/50 Mk VIII exist? Or would ordnance development concentrate on better mountings, higher velocities, higher rofs, more capable projectiles, for ships/guns constituting the vast majority of a nation’s cruiser capability? Perhaps, given the changed circumstances, the 6”/47 Mk16 (designed 1932) would have arrived a few years sooner. It wasn’t much different from the 6”/53 Mk15 of the Omahas, but had a redesigned breech capable of receiving semi-fixed ammo, and adaptable to “super heavy” projectiles. Rof is mount design and it’s way easier to do that within a 6” paradigm as opposed to an 8”.

Ok, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it .

Ciao, John

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Post #: 153
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/2/2013 9:46:40 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		The Hawkins class was very much the red-headed stepchild of the interwar RN cruiser fleet. At the beginning of the war, their armament suites were all over the place, with only Frobisher having something resembling its original fit.

Hawkins had four single 4in guns (basically an oversized gunboat), Effingham had nine single 6in guns with 4 4in singles as secondaries (Hawkins' primaries) and Frobisher had the original five 7.5-inchers.

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Post #: 154
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/2/2013 9:48:56 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		As for the 8-inch gun, the thought of a RN cruiser fleet built around it actually dates back to 1921, driven by increasing sizes of cruiser designs in the US and Japan.

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Post #: 155
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/2/2013 10:04:42 PM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		Term, that is why we can't really have a discussion of the US classes without creating the Japanese and UK lines.

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Post #: 156
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/2/2013 11:11:41 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		We don't disagree.

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Post #: 157
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/3/2013 2:50:00 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Gary, are the Clevelands a typo? I don't see a reason to build 15 6" guns in '34 then drop down to 8 6" in '42. The San Fransisco and Saint Louis are your killer CL's!!


No Typo, the 6" guns on the Clevelands are 6in/47 automatic DP guns a la Worcester class. The gun design was proposed by the Bureau of Ordinance in 1937, so hopefully 1942 is not too early for them.

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Post #: 158
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/3/2013 2:51:31 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Term, that is why we can't really have a discussion of the US classes without creating the Japanese and UK lines.


Been working on those a little too. I'll introduce them soon. I'm sure it will cause a re-evaluation of the US building program.

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Post #: 159
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/3/2013 3:19:13 AM   
ny59giants


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Status: offline 		I finished reading Kaigun a few months ago. Would Japan or another nation start to increase the size and firepower of their cruisers to be able to get in and damage the WW1 era or early 20s BB and then have the speed to run away?? Since Japanese doctrine was to force a decisive battle, would they want to be able to damage enough BBs or other large warships that the Americans would be forced to leave them behind?? If these question were true, how big would a cruiser have to be??

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Post #: 160
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/3/2013 6:42:02 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The Hawkins class was very much the red-headed stepchild of the interwar RN cruiser fleet. At the beginning of the war, their armament suites were all over the place, with only Frobisher having something resembling its original fit.

Hawkins had four single 4in guns (basically an oversized gunboat), Effingham had nine single 6in guns with 4 4in singles as secondaries (Hawkins' primaries) and Frobisher had the original five 7.5-inchers.

Hawkins had been decommisioned and her 7.5" guns removed pre war.
Due to lack of dock space and a war she never got her main guns back.
All of the class were armed with 7.5", but for various reasons some were removed and replaced with 6" as per Effingham.

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Post #: 161
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/3/2013 8:50:12 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Correct, which is why I said "at the beginning of the war".

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Post #: 162
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/8/2013 5:50:35 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		So if the Germans had developed a carrier force, how would this plane look as the German version of the SBD Dauntless? Basically an Ar-196 minus the floats.




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Post #: 163
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/8/2013 6:37:25 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		Here are a couple improved versions.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 5/8/2013 6:41:29 AM >

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Post #: 164
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/12/2013 5:36:33 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		Experimenting with a new preview method here. Might be kind of fun:

Here are some of the German ships I've been working on.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 165
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/12/2013 6:58:49 AM   
traskott


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Status: offline 		New toys for the Kriegsmarine. Good work!

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Post #: 166
RE: Plan 8-8-8 From Outerspace! - 5/15/2013 1:17:14 AM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Just when you thought it was safe to go swimming in the Pacific!




THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS, THIS MOD IS BRAVE! IT'S DARING! IT'S SIMPLE AND............................


IT'S HISTORICALLY COMPLETE DONKEY EXCREMENT!


THE ALTERNATIVE HISTORY OF WW 2:


A LONG TIME AGO... IN A GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY...
Queen Amadala...err...The roaring twenties almost collapse into a horrific Great Depression. State socialism begins to take root in much of the civilized world and thanks to massive government intervention in the world economies, the nations of the world manage to pull out of an economic nose dive. With greatly increased spending on their war machines, an artificial boom is created in the late 1920s through 1930s, leading up to a turbulent future. Attempts are made to stem the tide of militarism but none of the participant nations are able to come to any arms limitation agreements. In 1922 The Washington Treaty falls dead on its inception. A second attempt in London in 1930 fails as well.

A new age of naval experimentalism begins to take shape. Without treaties limiting their size and guns, the line between cruisers and capital ships slowly begins to fade as newer and heavier cruisers, mounting larger and larger guns and armor begin to appear. In 1932, after reviving the German economy Hitler and the National Socialist party begin a massive rearmament of Germany. Almost immediately the Z plan is put into effect to rebuild the German navy to make it once again a contender for world domination of the ocean.

Meanwhile Japan's 8-8-8 plan takes on a life of its own with the design in 1930 of the Yamato class 18" super Battleship. A new type of warship has also begun to emerge. The aircraft carrier begins to take shape. Immediately the navies of the world begin to see its potential.

In September 1939 Germany invades Poland. The next spring, France falls. Fortunately this time the French colonies doggedly resist German occupation of their homeland and continue on helping in the Allied war effort to liberate France. The remnants of the French Navy seek shelter in the Caribbean and Pacific from the German juggernaut. Hitler wisely decides not to invade the USSR and the USSR stays neutral for the entire war. Instead Hitler decides to concentrate his efforts on conquering the oil rich Middle East. After taking Malta, and Gibraltar the Africa Corps defeat Montgomery and the 8th Army. In the ensuing rout of the British army Germany takes control of the Middle East and India. The British Isles remarkably hang on and defeat operation Sea Lion in 1940 and again in 1941. However, the British Empire is in ruins. By August 1942, all that remains of the commonwealth are the home Isles, British Africa, Australia, Canada and Malaysia.

In the fall of 1942 things quiet down as Hitler contemplates his next moves. The British are in no position to move against Fortress Europe and the Soviets seem content to sit back and watch as the Western powers destroy each other. But to play it safe Hitler diverts substantial resources from fortress France to fortify Eastern Europe to ensure Stalin’s neutrality.

Unfortunately for the Japanese, Germany’s control of the Middle East doesn’t do Japan a whole of good. China, French Indochina and British Malaysia stand in the way to stop precious German oil from reaching them and there is only one logical course of action left. The Japanese must seize control of the supply lines from the Middle East to the homeland. Everyone knows this so no one is caught off guard on December 6th 1942 when the Japanese finally declare war on the Allies and the US.

It’s December 7th 1942, Admiral, the fate of the world hangs in the balance.



Plan 8-8-8 Light has been posted to my website: https://sites.google.com/site/garyswitpsite/
Plan 8-8-8 Light is simply the addition of numerous extra battleships to the stock game and was simply a quick and easy mod to incorporate some new art. Plan 8-8-8 Deluxe will feature an almost complete reworking of the entire WITP database.

CREDITS: Big B, Tomlabel and JWE are mostly to thank for the ship art in this mod, most of the ships are simply reworks of their magnificent art for AE.
Thank you Cathartes for the wonderful plane tops as well as all the stock AE plane sides (except for the Germans and Italians which are my doing). German and Italian plane sides are here thanks to all the wonderful and talented artists on the Internet who have posted their art, which I've combed through and resized and brushed up for my own uses. I wish I knew who the artists were but I have no idea. I've just collected a lot of sides in my scouring of the Internet over the years.

Gary -I never said so (I don't think) - but I love your thread and title

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RE: Plan 8-8-8 From Outerspace! - 5/15/2013 3:21:58 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B
Gary -I never said so (I don't think) - but I love your thread and title


Many thanks Big B! It's great to see you're still around the forums!

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Post #: 168
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/15/2013 6:29:25 PM   
traskott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Experimenting with a new preview method here. Might be kind of fun:

Here are some of the German ships I've been working on.







When we will see the art of this ?

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Post #: 169
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/16/2013 2:45:08 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Experimenting with a new preview method here. Might be kind of fun:

Here are some of the German ships I've been working on.







When we will see the art of this ?


Hopefully if my mod ever gets completed.

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Post #: 170
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/16/2013 11:37:32 AM   
traskott


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Status: offline 		ever? What means "ever"?



Now seriously, I will be very grateful if u make more ship art of the new ships you and the other guys are talking about.

Thanks

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Post #: 171
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/27/2013 10:12:53 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		Hmmm. Been doing a little toying around with a slightly smaller scenario. Maybe I'll call this one Plan 8-8-8: Express. I'm thinking a smaller scenario will be easier to finish than this humungus thing I've been toying around with. Scenario length could be maybe 365 days with the following boundaries. This will be the island hopping version of Plan 8-8-8.

Now I just need ideas for how to do the scoring for this. I've split developed bases up evenly so each side has 57 developed bases. Both sides will also have a plethora of dot bases for potential development.

EDIT: Basically I'm giving the Germans French Polynesia, the commonwealth gets NZ and its protectorate. Each side will get most of it's supplies from their northern bases. Most Allied supply will come in San Francisco and most axis will come in Tokyo. A relatively small amount of supply will also trickle into NZ for the Allies and Tahiti for Axis.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 172
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/27/2013 10:29:06 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		Conceivably this would make a nice 4 player map with one player for each nationality, the Commonwealth Player would also get a small contingent of Free French in New Caledonia.

Basically this would be like WITP chess. I'd design it so that the sides are fairly even, and then have them fight over the bases to win via scoring the most points.




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Post #: 173
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/28/2013 9:10:17 AM   
traskott


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Status: offline 		LOL, PanzerGrenadien at Noumea !!!??

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Post #: 174
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/28/2013 11:15:34 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		Noumea is on the other side of the map from the Germans. But yes, there could ultimately be Germans in Noumea.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 5/28/2013 11:20:37 AM >

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Post #: 175
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/28/2013 11:53:28 AM   
traskott


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Noumea is on the other side of the map from the Germans. But yes, there could ultimately be Germans in Noumea.


THAT'S the point .

Tigers on the beach... hummmmm...

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Post #: 176
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/28/2013 12:16:12 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Noumea is on the other side of the map from the Germans. But yes, there could ultimately be Germans in Noumea.


THAT'S the point .

Tigers on the beach... hummmmm...


There could be Tigers in Pago Pago too.

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Post #: 177
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/28/2013 12:20:54 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		So should I ditch the Germans and just stick with the Japanese? Or is this scenario just hopeless from the outset?

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Post #: 178
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/28/2013 12:55:34 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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Status: offline 		Well, the "Germans" will be Japanese either way.

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Post #: 179
RE: Alternative Cruiser Design Theory - 5/28/2013 3:44:32 PM   
rjopel

 

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Status: offline 		And Belushi would be right about the Germans attacking Pearl Harbor.

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Post #: 180
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