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Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 6:21:26 PM

Chris21wen

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I'm playing classic under normal difficulty and I'm really struggling with Pirates in shadow. Almost from the outset I've been continually attacked by them and have tried three times to either take the base or destroy it and each time I've been annihilated. In my last attempt I had 25 ships, 5 troop 2 CR the rest DD and tried to capture it. In the process the pirates seem to have hundreds of ships that just kept turning up. An impossible situation. I now notice that you have brought out a new patch THAT strengthen the pirates, last thing I would have said needs to be done, at least in classic.

If anyone got any sensible suggestions I'm willing to hear them.

Post #: 1

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 7:04:22 PM

bvoid

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Just pay them off until you can build up enough to hold your own.

(in reply to Chris21wen)

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 7:19:55 PM

Mad Igor

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don't pay them !or they will get 2 stronk fast.
what u need is research Star fighters,then stuff your bases with them = problem solved.

(in reply to bvoid)

Post #: 3

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 7:36:01 PM

BigWolfChris

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Yea, paying them lets them build more and more ships
Unless you're in a position to outpace their construction you're making it worse since they will often be ahead of you in technology as well

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 7:50:02 PM

Bingeling

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Their tech advantage should become a disadvantage over time. I prefer not to pay them.

If the game is too hard, make it easier, then learn from it. You can turn pirates pretty much off (if not off entirely).

(in reply to BigWolfChris)

Post #: 5

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 8:11:17 PM

DasTactic

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I'm making a 'Let's Play' series at the moment that covers how to survive and thrive in a pirate-strong universe. The really basic considerations are:

1. Pay pirates off until you can reliably defend your home planet (large spaceport and defence bases)
2. Research like crazy (build one of each research base at your home-world).
3. Don't create too many targets (mining bases etc) where pirates can siphon off your resources and funds via raids unless you can protect them from pirates.
4. Only colonise or conquer planets if you can protect them until you can build defences.
5. Then build-up strong enough forces to wipe the pirates out (about 10 game years after starting). Some pirates will be strong - others will be weak.
6. Look at designing ships with longer ranged weapons to attack the bases so the pirates can't use their tractor beams.

(in reply to Bingeling)

Post #: 6

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 9:08:37 PM

CyclopsSlayer

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If the Pirates weren't telepathic or something not pay will work, but...

Just had a game with Pirates set normal distance and one sent in 2 Frigate that trashed the MSP and small fleet like it wasn't even there. Then constant Raids and 4 more destroyed Space Ports, ALL, just as they were getting close to working. For almost 50 years I had ZERO ships, zero troops. Finally managed to buy them long enough to get a MSP up and by then it had shields and armor and fought off the pirate waves. Tried buying them off earlier, but just as I was getting close to the base they would break the protection treaty.

So 50 years later start...

(in reply to DasTactic)

Post #: 7

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 9:23:36 PM

Chris21wen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Igor

don't pay them !or they will get 2 stronk fast.
what u need is research Star fighters,then stuff your bases with them = problem solved.

That does not solve the problem of removing tham from the game.

(in reply to Mad Igor)

Post #: 8

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 9:30:15 PM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

If the Pirates weren't telepathic or something not pay will work, but...

Just had a game with Pirates set normal distance and one sent in 2 Frigate that trashed the MSP and small fleet like it wasn't even there. Then constant Raids and 4 more destroyed Space Ports, ALL, just as they were getting close to working. For almost 50 years I had ZERO ships, zero troops. Finally managed to buy them long enough to get a MSP up and by then it had shields and armor and fought off the pirate waves. Tried buying them off earlier, but just as I was getting close to the base they would break the protection treaty.

So 50 years later start...

That's more or less what has happen to me.

(in reply to CyclopsSlayer)

Post #: 9

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 10:06:12 PM

Bingeling

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Igor

don't pay them !or they will get 2 stronk fast.
what u need is research Star fighters,then stuff your bases with them = problem solved.

That does not solve the problem of removing tham from the game.

When starting a new game, first galaxy choice screen.

Lower right - Pirates -> None.

Problem solved.

Only do this for the classical age, though :)

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 10

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/28/2013 10:17:35 PM

Buio

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I gave up on a game when a pirate faction started attacking me with a Capital Ship they probably had found. My fleet vanished in seconds against it (it was parked there when it attacked).

(in reply to Bingeling)

Post #: 11

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 1:12:53 AM

Avarice0107

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I'll trade you, thought something was fishy when a pirate faction I met had more firepower than the Guardians. I just met the reason:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Buio)

Post #: 12

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 1:39:53 AM

Shark7

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Now that pirate group has the legitimate firepower to enforce their protection racket...

You need to capture that thing.

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Post #: 13

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 3:58:28 AM

MartialDoctor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Their tech advantage should become a disadvantage over time. I prefer not to pay them.

If the game is too hard, make it easier, then learn from it. You can turn pirates pretty much off (if not off entirely).

What Bing says. If they are too hard, you can make them easier.

Pirates are good the way they are, I feel. No need to make them weaker as you are implying.

(in reply to Bingeling)

Post #: 14

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 5:06:52 AM

Buio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor
That Bing says. If they are too hard, you can make them easier.

No, you can't turn off derelict/abandoned ships as far as I know. When they come at you with a capital ship and you have destroyers you don't stand a chance. Of course it is random and not really pirate related, but they have control over a lot more space in the beginning so they have a much lower odds of getting one.

(in reply to MartialDoctor)

Post #: 15

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 5:42:29 AM

Antiscamp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Avarice0107

I'll trade you, thought something was fishy when a pirate faction I met had more firepower than the Guardians. I just met the reason:

OK. You sir, win the offical fearsome pirates award of the year. I'm glad someone is having even more trouble with pirates than I am, because that just made the pirates in my game seem like annoying little flies in comparison.

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Post #: 16

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 5:51:22 AM

Dotdotdot

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Just keep playing. In my current game, most of the pirate factions in the surrounding sectors had a capital ship by the time I was Warp Capable. When I finally began pushing them out of my territory it felt really good.

Can't comment on the world destroyer though...

(in reply to Antiscamp)

Post #: 17

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 7:27:52 AM

MartialDoctor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buio

quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor
That Bing says. If they are too hard, you can make them easier.

No, you can't turn off derelict/abandoned ships as far as I know. When they come at you with a capital ship and you have destroyers you don't stand a chance. Of course it is random and not really pirate related, but they have control over a lot more space in the beginning so they have a much lower odds of getting one.

Well, you can tone down how many pirates there are; thus making them easier. As you pointed out, you're talking about a random event that gives them an extremely powerful capital ship. That doesn't happen often from what I've seen.

Also, your pointed out scenario simply means that the random ships found just need to be toned down (in terms of how powerful they are), not that there's a problem with pirates.

(in reply to Buio)

Post #: 18

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 12:24:24 PM

Jim D Burns

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

Well, you can tone down how many pirates there are; thus making them easier.

Actually I find the more pirates there are the easier they are to deal with. They fight each other for every scrap out there and thus do not build up to huge sized factions. The fewer of them there are the stronger they will be when you try and venture out of your home system as they'll have made many strongholds and fortresses by then.

So if you want things to be easier crank up their numbers to max and make sure they respawn. They'll fight each other to a standstill and allow you to eventually outgrow them.

Jim

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 12:53:36 PM

BigWolfChris

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Can say I've started to notice the fewer the pirates the harder they actually are as well

Afterall, I think they start with Hyperdrives (sidenote: worth them starting with warp bubbles at first for prewarp games?), meaning they have sectors and sectors of space to expand into straight away and the only way to prevent them is for them to have competition. Something empires won't be able to provide for a while, meaning you need to give them pirate factions to fight

For example, a recent game set with very few pirates...
Appears that either a) only one faction spawned b) the one faction wiped out the others before the empires reached the warp-age (I didn't have respawning pirates on either)
Needless to say this faction had so much room to expand and had most of the AI empires paying them
This lead to them being so rich and strong that, when I waged an all out war against them it was a very frustrating experience (I never paid them, they seemed to leave me alone due to how many military ships I had built)

I took their only colony, at the time, early and captured 2 shipyards, a medium that had 60-ish ships in the build queue and a large that easily had a 100 or more

I then used my spy network harass them non-stop, either by sabotaging construction or destroying bases with with my fleets now on the rampage of simply killing/capturing anything pirate they saw
Despite the wins, despite outnumbering them, despite my vast(ish) wealth and resources, they seemed to simply be rebuilding their loses faster than I could rebuild mine, eventually tipping the balance into their favour, they are now stronger than they were before I started the campaign and my economy has hit breaking point trying to keep up with their numbers
Really wished I'd managed to find their other constructor ships (only managed to kill one)

Ofc, trying all this with very hard difficulty and 999k research probably didn't help my cause either lol

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 2:44:21 PM

Maruun

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Just a thought but less pirates means few but strong pirates. Because they have less competition get more money faster ect.

Pirates are fighting each other, more pirates more fighting between them and you have a ****load of "weak" pirates.

(in reply to BigWolfChris)

Post #: 21

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 2:45:43 PM

Constantine XI

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In both games I have played so far, using default pirate settings, I haven't had a huge problem with pirates. I have refused to pay them, and they have attacked. In both games, I built some extra troops at the start and fended off their invasions (although one raid did steal some resources). They have also blown up my SSP a couple times before it could finish. However, in both games they mostly left me alone after the initial attacks. In my current game, I managed to throw up an extra small Defense Base and then my SSP, both with just missiles for defense. In my first game, the numerous pirates in surrounding systems never bothered me after those initial early raids, and the game ended after 20 years. Not sure if they will stay quiet in my current game.

I think there is a high degree of variance here. I have yet to encounter a mega pirate faction with hundreds of ships, or even a pirate faction that maintained aggression to the point where I couldn't get my own empire up and running. Maybe I have just gotten lucky.

(in reply to BigWolfChris)

Post #: 22

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 3:38:26 PM

Jim D Burns

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Another thing to keep in mind about the pirates, sign the protection agreements as soon as you can. If you play as a pirate faction you'll note a protection agreement for a few hundred is only enough to field 2 or 3 additional ships, then the added upkeep runs your income dry.

So sign agreements with them ASAP when playing as an empire as its very cheap in the early part of the pirate factions life and you don't really help them grow much in power. The cost of a single raid or the loss of a space port is far too expensive not to spend a few thousand total on protection agreements with all known pirates in your area. I wouldn't spend 500 or more on a single faction, but less than that isn't going to help them grow in size much, and it certainly won't help them to buy 30k hidden bases.

Where pirates make their real money is in raids and in selling tech and other stuff via negotiations. So don't buy anything expensive from them early on, save those purchases for later when you are strong enough to slam them before they can put all that money you give them to use. Early on use spies to steal what you can but be careful to spread out their efforts so you don't piss of a single faction too much and cause them to attack.

Jim

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 3:55:29 PM

BigWolfChris

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Jim, the example I gave, had me not paying them once in that game, yet they grew to immense strengths due to being the only pirate faction and the AI (I presume) paying them lots of money
Remember, pirates are taking out the AI empires also, so normally you're only paying a fraction of what they're earning (unless you've really pissed them off, in which case they'll want more from you I'm guessing)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Constantine XI
I think there is a high degree of variance here. I have yet to encounter a mega pirate faction with hundreds of ships, or even a pirate faction that maintained aggression to the point where I couldn't get my own empire up and running. Maybe I have just gotten lucky.

Run very few pirates in a pre-warp game on hard or very hard difficulty, more often than not, a super-pirate faction will indeed merge

It kinda of funny in a weird way, that it would be logical that less pirates = easier time, but the game actually has it the other way round, part of me thinks it brilliant, another part of me thinks it might need altering lol

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(in reply to Constantine XI)

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 4:09:08 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

Well, you can tone down how many pirates there are; thus making them easier.

Actually I find the more pirates there are the easier they are to deal with. They fight each other for every scrap out there and thus do not build up to huge sized factions. The fewer of them there are the stronger they will be when you try and venture out of your home system as they'll have made many strongholds and fortresses by then.

So if you want things to be easier crank up their numbers to max and make sure they respawn. They'll fight each other to a standstill and allow you to eventually outgrow them.

Jim

This is true. The only time one will get the upper hand is if they find one of the old derelicts and put it in service. And even then, they'll keep on fighting each other and constantly weakening themselves.

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Post #: 25

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 4:12:30 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigWolf

Jim, the example I gave, had me not paying them once in that game, yet they grew to immense strengths due to being the only pirate faction and the AI (I presume) paying them lots of money
Remember, pirates are taking out the AI empires also, so normally you're only paying a fraction of what they're earning (unless you've really pissed them off, in which case they'll want more from you I'm guessing)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Constantine XI
I think there is a high degree of variance here. I have yet to encounter a mega pirate faction with hundreds of ships, or even a pirate faction that maintained aggression to the point where I couldn't get my own empire up and running. Maybe I have just gotten lucky.

Run very few pirates in a pre-warp game on hard or very hard difficulty, more often than not, a super-pirate faction will indeed merge

It kinda of funny in a weird way, that it would be logical that less pirates = easier time, but the game actually has it the other way round, part of me thinks it brilliant, another part of me thinks it might need altering lol

I've played with pirates set to very many, nearby and on extreme difficulty...they are a major PITA in that set up, but you can do it. Also keep in mind that every time you offer a contract to smuggle, defend, or attack you are financing their war machine. So you have to weigh every action you take.

One key thing guys is to make sure you have adequate troops on your colonies. I keep a minimum of 5 on each planet, which really reduces the pirates chances of successfully raiding your planets and stealing money or resources.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to BigWolfChris)

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 4:26:25 PM

Bingeling

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I guess less pirates making the game more difficult is the same as some old wisdom in this game. Like that increasing aggression makes the game easier.

By the same logic, adding more empires, makes the game easier too. But it makes the likelihood of a "quiet start" lower.

(in reply to Shark7)

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RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 4:34:56 PM

BigWolfChris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Also keep in mind that every time you offer a contract to smuggle, defend, or attack you are financing their war machine. So you have to weigh every action you take.

I don't even do these
The point I'm getting at, is for those saying pay them off or don't pay them off, it doesn't actually matter on the higher difficulties and few pirates, the AI empires alone will finance them
Ofc, I dare say that by paying them off (and running smuggling/merc operations also) you only make it worse for yourself long term

If people find pirates are to strong for their tastes, either switch them off, or have more of them in the game

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Post #: 28

RE: Pirates are far to strong - 5/29/2013 4:36:38 PM

BigWolfChris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
By the same logic, adding more empires, makes the game easier too. But it makes the likelihood of a "quiet start" lower.

Yes and no, it will stop distant AIs from becoming really strong, but also runs the chance of you not being able to expand that far (depending on the game settings ofc)

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Post #: 29

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Pirates are far to strong