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Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 8:27:55 AM

peddroelm

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1. Colony Population growth formula ? (as population is the nr.1 resource in this game) it would surely be nice to know how it works ..
(would greatly help knowing what to do with the tax rate setting -> each decrement of the tax rate always helps growth ? )
Lacking the formula - lower bits of info
2. Is colony population growth influenced by colony approval rate ? Reason I ask is because Galactopedia doesn't list approval as a factor for population growth ..
3. Is there any point to having approval above 15 + a bit of a safety measure? (not listed as factor in population growth, not listed as colony income factor)
4. Do recreational and medical facilities actually affect population growth (related to approval purpose/role) or are mostly useless (research and maintenance sinks ?) ?
5. Is the colony development variable/parameter/indicator displayed anywhere in the interface ?
6. Total Empire Research Potential (TERP) formula ?
7. Colony Culture Formula ? This one is displayed in the colony screen but what can we do to improve our homeworld's culture (TERP) early game ? Is this just another fancy name for big population or does it depend on something else too?
8. Does planet quality only influence MAX population ? Because if so how could it cause this ?! "However any planet or moon with a quality below 50% should be avoided. These planets will be a net drain on your empire�s economy if you colonize them. They will cost more to support than they produce in revenue. "
-colonies don't have maintenance costs listed anywhere ... Is this "higher than revenue cost" calculated from the "essential resources & luxuries" the colony consumes in order to grow ?

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 9:59:28 AM

Bingeling

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You ask about a lot of things that I don't know...

1: Tax vs population growth have been changed in Shadows. It is way too early to tell.

2: If you pay attention, it should be easy to figure out? If you have a population that is grumpy while at war (including war with own species), note their growth, and do the same once war is over. Or test with taxes.

3: Dunno.

4: Recreation and medical do at least provide happiness. And a bit bonus happiness from structures, means that you can tax them harder and still have the same happiness.

5: Colony development, as long as I understand what you ask about

The Qu is the quality. This is a feature of the planet/moon, and can only be influenced by random events (gain 1 quality), or be temporary lower from events (disasters, bombardment).

The C is culture or something. Any well supplied colony has 100 culture. Beta Kapola 1 is there. If they got an ultra rare, they got at +35 (135) development/culture. The capital could be there, but the +35 is probably from the wonder built there.

"Bonus development from ruins" are included. That is probably the reason for most of those over 100.
A lack of luxuries (less than 10) reduces culture, that is an issue with the bottom feeders. Sollost 5 has 101, which could be a mix of a bit negative for missing luxuries, and a bonus from a ruin. There are so many with small bonuses in this game, that I would have to check to see what causes it, that would be an awful lot of ruins. And I am too lazy to open that game.

6: Terp? If you dig on this forum, maybe. It is about population levels, probably? Maybe some race stuff.

7: See the answer in 5. Enough luxuries, a store of an ultra rare. A fancy wonder. Possibly a few more.

8: Planet quality:

I think quality influences population max, because if you colonize a 22% or thereabouts (that makes sense with certain ultra rares or empire wide ruins), the max population is extremely low. 30M or so.

Quality is a big factor in revenue generation, development should also be a factor (I think).

The same game as the above, much later.

Compare Freepid and Da Suukha 3. One is above the other in the list. Same population level, same culture, same tax level. And 144k vs 96k revenue. The difference is 99% or 84% quality.

Beta Kapola 1 is even lower than Freepid, have more population, same development, but even worse revenue.
There are a couple of large low qualities that don't make the list (they are sorted on revenue).

Towards the top there is Yaselur 2 vs Framisc Yagin 1. The latter is more valuable, as could be expected from higher population but notice that the AI has higher tax on Yaselur 2. That is probably due to bonus happiness from the local development bonus. All of these are spaceports, without them maybe all tax would be 1 lower.

I lose a ton of income that game, because the dimwits migrate people out of Kuristar 1...

(in reply to peddroelm)

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 10:12:53 AM

joeyeti

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peddroelm

if you search for the TERP calculation, head here for a summary:

http://distant-worlds.wikispot.org/Research_and_Technology

Please note the WIKI is not yet in any way complete, but this particular info is already there.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 12:46:20 PM

peddroelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling
...

A few bits of inter from here .. Biggest revelation is that you say colony development is the same with colony culture ...

Colony development has a formula in galactopedia (up to 50% from 500 mil population; up to 100% from 10 different luxuries on stock + some extra bonuses (ruins/wonders/race specials/uber luxuries..) )

This makes scouting and mining new luxuries early even more important (extra income for empire and extra science)

///////////////////////

If tax's level way of influencing growth is trough approval then a lot of things start to make sense ... Means EACH AND EVERY bit of approval ( from tax level, medical centre, recreation facility, race bonuses, development level= culture (luxuries), governor, leader ,...etc ) will all impact colony growth ....
They sure dedicate a significant amount of screen real estate to approval in that screen ...APPROVAL MUST BE IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR POPULATION GROWTH ..
And population is the number 1 uber luxury in the game ..

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joeyeti
...

TERP in that link is a given - function of empire population and culture ...
Now that we begin to suspect that colony culture= colony development we have a way to influence TERP from the very early game (other than simply growing home-world as much as possible).. Up to 10 NEW Luxuries ...

< Message edited by peddroelm -- 5/28/2013 1:19:19 PM >

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 12:51:42 PM

joeyeti

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Seems like that.

I am not sure we will ever get any precise formula, so going with "expanding population and happiness as fast as possible in order to gain more research" is as close as we can get.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 12:53:54 PM

peddroelm

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"Money is created by population, where revenue = population * (planet quality - 50%) * (planet development level) * (1- corruption as a fraction) * (1 + bonuses as a fraction) / scale factor.

Scale factor is determined at game creation by the difficulty setting, with more difficulty generating less money for you and more for the AI players. Of course if you manage the AI empires through trading things you get their money regardless, so perhaps a setting of maximum difficulty would generate more galactic economy than on normal. I have not tried that out...

Population grows faster when luxuries are high and taxes are low."

Again Jeeves old guide
still he doesn't quite put the finger on approval for population growth rate although both Low Taxes and High Development give approval .. Connect the dots ..

See how revenue from planet gets negative if planet quality is bellow 50% ...

"Planet Quality is critically important, with a 90% being twice as good as a 70%, and a 70% being twice as good as a 60%. Watch out for disasters which lower planet quality. A nice improvement to game play is the terraforming facility to restore lost quality. If you see a low quality planet, consider colonizing it only if its resources are very valuable"

all that from here * (planet quality - 50%) *

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 1:24:12 PM

Bingeling

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I don't operate formulas for value, but my gut feeling is to:

- Get those high 90s fast. With pop they are money makers.
- Give priority to getting decent systems under zone of influence.
- Don't bother colonize sub 80 unless it is to gain zone of influence.
- Maybe colonize low 70s when bored and having excessive pop.
- Maybe colonize 60s when really bored.

I also ponder if some "crap" colonies between my good ones keep the enemy distracted. I rather lose those

In the game linked, Kuristar 1 population dropped from the 9000Ms. Putting to many fresh colonies can destroy you economy by your people migrating there...

The ones linked above are fed by Gizurean excessive population growth. Apart from that, notice Framisc Yagin 1 in the lower image. That one was colonize late, and by Gizureans. Lots of migration to that one, by nearby bugs.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 1:34:54 PM

peddroelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

...

What gives me chills on my back on that picture is the monstrous and growth crushingly high taxes ... Those tax levels eat into approval and approval eats into growth speed (late revelation)...

I would try to keep any planet not at max population yet at 0 tax or as close as possible .. .. When you do that you are obviously dumping most cash into the private economy (flood it with much more cash than it needs) ... From which you must dip in from time to time just to survive with negative military cashflow ... Doing this (and other approval boosting tricks) insures your colonies reach max population ASAP (cash overflow both for your state and civilian economies) ...

Out of curiosity if you still have the save check growth rate on one of those 50% tax planets .. Then drop tax to 0 and let it play a few seconds .. Check your growth rate again ...

< Message edited by peddroelm -- 5/28/2013 1:35:09 PM >

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 1:41:46 PM

Bingeling

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The 50% are that because they are full of Space Hippies that are just so happy (Securans). The tax-growth links are different in Shadows, but I prefer to keep AI taxes (less work, and it evens the playing field). 0 tax is nerfed, but I am not sure how much.

I did a beta test with 0 tax which had hilarious results. I don't think the same would happen at release, though. Hint: People are attracted to 0 tax, and if everyone goes there, who will feed the coffers?

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 1:47:42 PM

peddroelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

The 50% are that because they are full of Space Hippies that are just so happy (Securans). The tax-growth links are different in Shadows, but I prefer to keep AI taxes (less work, and it evens the playing field). 0 tax is nerfed, but I am not sure how much.

I did a beta test with 0 tax which had hilarious results. I don't think the same would happen at release, though. Hint: People are attracted to 0 tax, and if everyone goes there, who will feed the coffers?

Obsolete the passenger ship models :P You wanna run off to 0 tax planet to avoid IRS ? Learn to swim in space ...

Population coming in from the other empires I would welcome with open hands ...
Even if from my high pop planets .. Getting a new planet out from the exponential hole trough migration is worth it ...

< Message edited by peddroelm -- 5/28/2013 1:53:20 PM >

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 1:57:55 PM

Bingeling

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High pop (full planets) have population to spare. I am annoyed they don't take people off my capital in that game, when the capital is full. But I know I made that capital protection happen, as I showed a game where the capital was the lowest pop colony (at 900M). They all left

. The capital protection is a bit too good in the current version, though, no need to protect the last 1000M below the cap.

If you remove all passenger ships, they could just enlist foreigners. Maybe you have to declare war on everyone else too ;-)

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 5:04:22 PM

Spacecadet

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#3 - Yes.
The higher the happiness the higher the Population growth rate - it's not instantaneous, but it will kick in after an improvement.

#8 - Yes.
For planets of the same type/size/etc., the one with higher Quality will be able to support more population.
Financially, a 50% Quality planet is essentially a break even planet - you won't gain any income, but it won't cost you any either (self supporting).
Below 50% Quality planets cost maintenance even fully populated.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 5:35:09 PM

peddroelm

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got to test a bit in game : ~~pretty sure the musical sign (culture) IS NOT colony development ...~~

< Message edited by peddroelm -- 5/29/2013 4:33:06 AM >

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/28/2013 5:53:27 PM

Bingeling

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It should be 100 for a well supplied, not tiny, colony. For more, look at bonuses (including development bonus from ruin). For below, look for missing luxuries or tiny population.

I can load up the game and check a bit.

Keep in mind, 100 is the norm. 130 is the norm with an ultra rare in store.

Ikurro 1 is 135: 30 from Bakuras Highspeed Shipyards. +5 for lead at colon (Ikurro).
Spetoo is 110: 10% increase for iridium at colony (some race, gizurean? Securan?)
Kuristar 1 is 105: 5% lead (ikurro).
Beta Kapola 1 is 110: 10% increase for iridium (probably gizurean).

Lots of 110, lots of bugs...

Yaselur 2 is 130. 10% iridum (gives 110). +20% development bonus from Exalted Pillar.
Hookror is 133. 10% iridum. 23% from the silent chamber of the Ugnaris.

Look at the colony list. Population bounses (like lead and iridum) is listed in the population view. Further things may be from facilities, ruins, or an ultra rare in store.

Oh, this info is from a slightly different point in time, but culture does not change much, since sources are quite static.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 3:52:08 PM

peddroelm

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Hi peddroelm

Answers inline below:

1. Colony Population growth formula ? (as population is the nr.1 resource in this game) it would surely be nice to know how it works ..
(would greatly help knowing what to do with the tax rate setting -> each decrement of the tax rate always helps growth ? )
Lacking the formula - lower bits of info

The Galactopedia article "Colony Growth" gives an overview of this. Without detailing the specific formula, the following factors affect population growth:
- more luxury resources are better
- lower tax is better
- higher happiness is better
- higher planet quality is better
- having all required strategic resources is good
- colony governors and leaders can provide bonuses
- some races reproduce faster than others
- some wonders can help
- migration from other colonies can help a lot

2. Is colony population growth influenced by colony approval rate ? Reason I ask is because Galactopedia doesn't list approval as a factor for population growth ..
Yes

3. Is there any point to having approval above 15 + a bit of a safety measure? (not listed as factor in population growth, not listed as colony income factor)
Maybe, e.g. if there's a chance of revolt (through general unrest, war weariness, newly conquered enemy colony, foreign intelligence missions to cause revolt). However the colony tax AI will try and accommodate these factors and auto-adjust tax rates in an effort to keep approval at a targeted level.

4. Do recreational and medical facilities actually affect population growth (related to approval purpose/role) or are mostly useless (research and maintenance sinks ?) ?
Yes, because they improve overall happiness at the colony (see the population attitude summary for the colony in the Population tab of the Colonies screen)

5. Is the colony development variable/parameter/indicator displayed anywhere in the interface ?
Development is the percentage value after the red musical note symbol in the Selection Panel when a colony is selected (near the middle of the panel)

6. Total Empire Research Potential (TERP) formula ?
For normal planetary empires this is directly related to population. The more people in your empire (at your colonies), the higher your empire's research potential. Note though that the increase in research potential is not linear - the rate of increase tapers off as your empire grows, thus an empire with 50 billion people does NOT have 5 times the research output of an empire with 10 billion people.

7. Colony Culture Formula ? This one is displayed in the colony screen but what can we do to improve our homeworld's culture (TERP) early game ? Is this just another fancy name for big population or does it depend on something else too?
Culture (otherwise known as Development) is increased by having plenty of luxury resources at the colony. This means open trade lanes to import most of these (i.e. freighters transporting them to your colony). This all happens outside of your control - you just keep trade flowing by keeping things secure, and ideally make trade agreements with other empires.
Wonders can also increase Culture/Development.

8. Does planet quality only influence MAX population ? Because if so how could it cause this ?! "However any planet or moon with a quality below 50% should be avoided. These planets will be a net drain on your empire�s economy if you colonize them. They will cost more to support than they produce in revenue. "
-colonies don't have maintenance costs listed anywhere ... Is this "higher than revenue cost" calculated from the "essential resources & luxuries" the colony consumes in order to grow ?
All colonies have a basic annual upkeep cost of 1K. For colonies under 100 million population this cost is higher (2-3K). Typically colonies on planets or moons with quality of less than 50% cannot earn enough money to even cover this cost, thus they are a net drain on your economy and are usually not worth colonizing. There may be other factors that make them worth colonizing though, like special resources, special ruins, or strategic location.

///////////////
answer to PM by elliotg

(in reply to Bingeling)

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 4:37:12 PM

Bingeling

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Nice update :) Nothing really surprising in it, though

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 6:18:42 PM

peddroelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Nice update :) Nothing really surprising in it, though

"Colony development level is comprised of two parts (as explained further below): 50% from population + 50% from luxury resources

At population of 500 million, population development reaches full 50%. Smaller populations have proportionally less population development. "

That is from galactopedia .. And is false ... the 50% culture/development cap from population happens much latter ~4-5000M population ... Galactopedia is lying to us - I don't find it very surprising only a bit disappointing ...

Based on that line on galactopedia I was so sure the musical sign culture cannot be colony development .. My test colony started at 1000M with only ~ 66% culture .. Then as my population keep increasing towards 4-5000M the culture went towards 100% .. Percent by percent .. Without getting any new luxuries (was turtling on homeplanet) ...

< Message edited by peddroelm -- 5/29/2013 7:50:27 PM >

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 7:11:31 PM

Bingeling

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Are you sure they had no luxuries? They can be persistent in in getting hold of them. Try getting a new spaceport up, and notice all the incoming resource transports (a lot of them can be outgoing, though), and scarce occurrence of incoming strategics. Btw, I find spaceport build speed quite good in Shadows.

Apart from it being quite obvious that culture is development if you look at the game, Elliot even wrote so in his reply to you. This was very easy to see in life before resource bonuses. For mature colonies, culture/development was 100/130 plus ruins, depending on access to rares or not. The new +5 or +10 from resources makes things a bit more chaotic.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 7:20:17 PM

peddroelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Are you sure they had no luxuries? They can be persistent in in getting hold of them. Try getting a new spaceport up, and notice all the incoming resource transports (a lot of them can be outgoing, though), and scarce occurrence of incoming strategics. Btw, I find spaceport build speed quite good in Shadows.

Apart from it being quite obvious that culture is development if you look at the game, Elliot even wrote so in his reply to you. This was very easy to see in life before resource bonuses. For mature colonies, culture/development was 100/130 plus ruins, depending on access to rares or not. The new +5 or +10 from resources makes things a bit more chaotic.

HAD tons of luxuries - homeworlds start with a bunch of them (space magic)..Did not get any NEW luxuries (no ships no spaceport) so no reason for development to keep rising (pop > 500M more than 10 luxuries).. But it kept raising (from 66% to 100%) with my population even if my population was well above 500M - the point where according to the galactopedia (DW gospel) development bonus from population supposedly tops off ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

...it being quite obvious that culture is development if you look at the game, Elliot even wrote so in his reply to you...

I'm not contesting Elliot on game-mechanics (yet :P) .. But trusting Elliot means the Galactopedia article on Colony Development is strait out lying (probably outdated ..) ...

Galactopedia is rather thin at this point ... But even if those little bits are not to be trusted ...

< Message edited by peddroelm -- 5/29/2013 7:25:18 PM >

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 7:40:40 PM

Bingeling

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Did you watch that planet? If they request luxuries, pirates could bring them. I have seen pirates solve AI caslon issues early on, with no smuggling mission in play...

If you had no ships, how did you get hold of it?

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 7:48:36 PM

peddroelm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Did you watch that planet? If they request luxuries, pirates could bring them. I have seen pirates solve AI caslon issues early on, with no smuggling mission in play...

If you had no ships, how did you get hold of it?

Twas me homeworld ... Doubt pirates deliver without spaceport ...

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/29/2013 8:17:48 PM

Bingeling

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What has the spaceport to do with anything? Colonies book and need stuff, not spaceports. Although spaceports are delivery points if they exist. Which is easily seen with who freighter work for with the new "red vector" change.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/30/2013 3:09:57 PM

Plant

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You are able to deliver without spaceports.
A bit strange when you think about it, since frieghters have to be built in space, yet are able to land on planets.

As for colony culture, I don't really know the mechanics for how exactly it works, and nor does Galactopedia seem to know exactly either. It just seems to go up naturally through trade, without any population limits.

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RE: Few game mechanics questions - 5/30/2013 3:40:49 PM

Bingeling

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Colony culture was explained by Elliot in the quote. It is the same as development and they need some size and 10 luxuries, and a few bonuses exist.

The question is if a colony with no luxuries can have 100% development (culture) (and additional bonuses for racial, ruins, wonders, ultra-rares). The claim above was yes, I am skeptical, but don't know.

Freighters does of course not dock at colonies, they stay in orbit. Smaller craft has to fetch the goods, which makes it less efficient than a spaceport. This fits with the current implementation, where colony docks are less efficient than spaceport docks. That is how I imagine it, anyways.

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