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Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 3:20:10 PM

Constantine XI

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Joined: 5/16/2013
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Having gotten back into the game with Shadows, I realize that I have a bit of a basic lack of understanding about Mines and Mining Ships. When does it make sense to build mines? Since cargo transports are the ones that pick up resources from mines, once you build a mine, the actual mining ships don't have a job at that location.

My basic understanding is that mining ships are private sector, and thus don't cost the state maintenance, same with transports. However, mines do cost maintenance and have other considerations such as a need for static defense. Thus, it is probably cheaper to rely on mining ships. However, I have some trouble with the economics and logistics of this. I don't see civilian mining ships being built at a larger rate when I don't have mines, even when I am short resources and have nearby locations that could be mined. Logically, I would think the private sector would fill this gap. Instead, I find myself building mines myself to try to overcome resource gaps.

What am I missing here? When should I be building mines? Is there a way to stimulate the civilians sector to build more mining ships to go after the resources that I am lacking? What is the overall strategy / gameplay design here?

Thanks!

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 3:35:38 PM

Shark7

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It doesn't make sense to build a mining station at every rock you can mine in game. Mining station make more sense at places that have multiple resources, especially at high percentages.

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 3:51:34 PM

Constantine XI

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Joined: 5/16/2013
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Right, that makes sense, but what about mining that valuable world with a mining station, or leaving it to the private sector mining ships? Does it always make sense to put a mine on a world that you want resources from? Since there is no way to direct the private sector, that seems to be the only way to ensure you are getting the things you need.

In my current game, the civilian sector seems to be building plenty of ships, and has plenty of money (as does the state). However, I still am having shortages of things like silicon, even though there are nearby deposits. Not sure why the private sector isn't plugging that gap with mining ships. I am just going to have to build mines on those worlds it seems.

(in reply to Shark7)

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 3:52:51 PM

Mansen

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So purely mechanics wise how does it work? If a mining ship is mining an object, is it occupied, or can several ships huddle on top of it?

So mining stations should be reserved for multiple source (and high demand) resources like fuel gasses and construction materials? Lower demand resources like luxury items and secondary gasses and metals can be handled by ships just fine?

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 4:20:45 PM

Bingeling

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Joined: 8/12/2010
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Many mining ships can be on one object, but they are random, not to be trusted, and you can't influence their numbers unless you are pirate.

They also need to stop mining to return their wares.

Mines are more efficient, and don't move off to unload, but are more easily killed. Use these for the bulk of your mining needs, and have the mining ships fill out smaller gaps. The original is wrong about the maintenance of these, that is payed by the civilian sector. The state have to pay for building the mines, though.

Also consider what happens if a pirate is around mining ships. They run off. Mines to mine along until actually hit. In a defended system, that can be a huge benefit when it comes to getting mining done.

(in reply to Mansen)

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 5:03:58 PM

Modest

Posts: 172
Joined: 11/26/2011
From: Warsaw, Poland
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Aha! Somebody with questions, and an interesting one! :)

quote:

Logically, I would think the private sector would fill this gap.
Is there a way to stimulate the civilians sector to build more mining ships...

You may easily influence private sector to build more ships (including mining ships). But not in a way You are hoping to do. Private sector is building certian amount of ships per colony. That means that in order to have more mining ships You must colonise more planets - which leads to bigger demand on resources to mine and so. There was a post once, made by a user who calculated exact quantity of each private ships builds per colony. So unfortunatly logicas system of demands and supply when it come to resources harvesting does not work in a way one would expect at first glance.

quote:

My basic understanding is that mining ships are private sector, and thus don't cost the state maintenance, same with transports. However, mines do cost maintenance and have other considerations such as a need for static defense.

This is a bit wrong understanding... Yes, mining ships are private sector and state do not have to pay maintendance, but so das mining stations. Even when You are building mining stations You are not paying from state pocket, but from a private (I am rellying on what I read in Tech Support forum). So in this matter there is no such diffrences betwen mining stations and mining ships. Where is a diffrence, is that mining station requires construction ship to go in a place and start to build it, while mining ships are being build in space ports (relativly safe place) and than fly to it's target to mine - not much of a diffrence for me actually. However let's go deeper into it. Mining stations once build may not change it's locations - there is no way to do this. Only scraping and rebuilding is an option - mining ships are free to mine whatever planet is in their range. That is a clear advantage on mining ship side. But there are two problems - one is, just as You pointed out - mining ships are not mining resources that are needed on paticular colony. As a matter of fact I do not know how they are deciding what planet to target for mining. So You can decide what source will mine station, but not mining ship - and that is clear advantage on stations' side. And now the best - mining done by ships is much slower than mining done by stations (up to Legends at least, providing that what I read once is correct). If all what I said is correct than stations are FAAAAR more better to obtain resources than mining ships. And because they are FAAAAR more better I do believe it is all correct.

quote:

So purely mechanics wise how does it work? If a mining ship is mining an object, is it occupied, or can several ships huddle on top of it?

Mining ships and stations are not rivals in mining - if a mining base is build over a planet, than ship may still come and mine that planet. So das other mining ships - they may use the same planet at once, but tend to not.

So why to give mining ships at all? I think that they were given as a little support for Your mining operations, and so that You will never end up without obtaining resources from Your solar system, even if some foe will come into it and destroy all of Your mining stations and constructions ships. Private sector will still allow You to obtain necesery resources to start building mining stations on Your own. That is what I suspect.

My personal policy and opinion about mining ships?
I do not relly on them at all! I play game as if there would be none of them. If I find myself without acces to certian strategic resource - I build there a mine at once. Mining ships will not handle even lowest demand resources on their own. But to say that I ignore them completly, or I do not fell that they help in resources collection - that would be a lie also. For one - I always add them two more extractors (not luxury, but gas of ore) and increase their storage 4 times (normaly they have 500 cargo space at begining of game, and I expand it to 2000).

The easiest way to describe theirs role in my opinion is to call them an addition to mines.

I hope that I was helpfull.

(in reply to Mansen)

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 5:34:17 PM

ASHBERY76

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Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
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Upkeep cost.I let the mobile mining ships do the work for most resources.

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/30/2013 6:25:35 PM

Bingeling

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And what is the difference in upkeep between a mining base and a mining ship? The civilians usually have enough money on their hands to pay both.

In a very bad situation where you miss a resource, I think mining ships can go into the territory of other empires to save the day. I don't trust the AI in doing that though, they will probably rather mine some more steel of a closer rock, but I have not verified this.

Apart from fuel, it is not like you need a ton of mines, anyways. The ships may have a big part in this, but it is hard to keep track of where stuff comes from. Trade is also rather invisible, and knowing that the empire purchases something of which it has a good store, could be useful to know.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)

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RE: Mines vs. Mining Ships - 5/31/2013 2:40:44 PM

Constantine XI

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Joined: 5/16/2013
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Wow lots of interesting information. Very helpful.

It does seem like some balance is needed if the private sector isn't going after high demand (ie: resource shortage) resources. High demand would equal high price, so if my empire is short on, say, caslon, and there is caslon available in a safe, nearby location...the mining ships should prioritize it. Maybe this needs some tweaking.

Very interesting on the design standpoint. I guess I also need to look at some mining ship and mine designs. I have generally been keeping everything fairly minimal to keep maintenance costs low. Has anyone ever looked at the cost / benefit of a mining ship versus a mine and the transports needed to move resources? Seems like the mining ship might actually be a better value since you only need one ship, while the mine needs a mine and transports. Lots of interesting considerations there.

(in reply to Bingeling)

Post #: 9