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Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/7/2013 5:52:21 PM   
Lonewolf


Posts: 61
Joined: 9/21/2002
Status: offline 		Playing Grand Campaign (or one of the variations) as Japanese against AI Allies. Have anyone try to start the war with alternate plans? Obviously you will have to uncheck historical first turn to re-order all preset stuff.

Alternate plans in my mind will be something along these lines:
- Skip the Malaya campaign. Either box in Singapore or send every invasion task force there on turn 1.
- Skip Philippines and possibly Malaya. Go straight to South Pacific, occupy Fiji etc and maybe take over Australia.
- Invade Hawaii on turn 1, right after the Pearl Harbor attack.
- Attack west coast of North America right from the start. Essentially send everything there ASAP. Occupy Alaska to use an intermediate base.


I just want to know before I invest days to play the first month of war to find out....


P.S. In War Plan Orange years ago playing as Japanese. I managed to invade Alaska and setup a base there. Then I went on to invade Canada but could not get too much further than Vancouver. I have invaded Australia and Nouméa before in the the old WiTP Solomons area campaign.
Post #: 1
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/7/2013 6:03:08 PM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline 		I'd be wary of any plan that doesn't involve some effort to seize the resources (especially oil) of the Dutch East Indies. Otherwise, if your go for the throat offensive falters, the Japanese economy could crash in the spring of '42.

(in reply to Lonewolf)
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RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/7/2013 6:16:31 PM   
Lonewolf


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Joined: 9/21/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

I'd be wary of any plan that doesn't involve some effort to seize the resources (especially oil) of the Dutch East Indies. Otherwise, if your go for the throat offensive falters, the Japanese economy could crash in the spring of '42.


That could be an issue. I suppose the oil from north east China can keep things moving a bit.

From what I can tell, there are not too much resources in Philippines and Malaya. The Allies' bases there can cause issues when you try to run convoys from Dutch East Indies. Cutting off supplies to Philippines can be done if you can put up a naval blockade. So technically one can sent the Malaya invasion force straight south to capture the oil fields and start shipping the oil/resource back to Japan. I guess pacifying Philippines must be done if you want to get stuff out of Dutch East Indies.

(in reply to Shellshock)
Post #: 3
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/7/2013 6:20:45 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It's not a "could" situation, it's a "will". You have 7 to 8 months to secure the oil from the DEI and then those convoys had better be sailin'.

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RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/7/2013 7:02:54 PM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lonewolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

I'd be wary of any plan that doesn't involve some effort to seize the resources (especially oil) of the Dutch East Indies. Otherwise, if your go for the throat offensive falters, the Japanese economy could crash in the spring of '42.


That could be an issue. I suppose the oil from north east China can keep things moving a bit.



You can ship surplus fuel from Port Arthur to Japan for a while, but if you overdo it, your heavy industry in Manchuria will shudder to a halt. The oil in Manchuria is about enough to keep Manchuria going and not much else.

(in reply to Lonewolf)
Post #: 5
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/7/2013 8:05:32 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		The biggest issue with an alternate plan is this: The AI is a script. It doesn't perform well against a strategy that's far outside the norm.

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(in reply to Shellshock)
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RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/7/2013 8:46:56 PM   
Lonewolf


Posts: 61
Joined: 9/21/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

The biggest issue with an alternate plan is this: The AI is a script. It doesn't perform well against a strategy that's far outside the norm.


I have not gone that far in WITP:AE yet but that was definitely the case in WITP scenarios like Solomons. After I capture Port Moresby and northern Australia, the Allies were trying to send ships to Port Moresby for my target practice. Same goes for capturing Nouméa, the Allies AI don't know what to do and proceed to sitting around in Australia.

For my current WITP:AE Grand Campaign - Quiet China playing Japanese, late January 1942: Allies AI keep sending these cross Pacific convoys to Philippines despite my naval blockage. All I need are Air Combat TFs taking turn patrolling the area. Even the Ryujo + 12 Kates will do. I have seen a destroyer or 2 but usually un-escorted freighters.

< Message edited by Lonewolf -- 6/7/2013 8:50:08 PM >

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 7
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/8/2013 12:47:10 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Against the AI, you can't do this type of "deep" movement and have an enjoyable game. The AI will fall apart.

Against a live opponent, a couple of early AAR's have tried to take PH in an early rush and failed. There are hundred's of CD guns, and the KB and all BB's have to return to Truk to rearm. Once the KB departs after having expended all stores, the allied player can sneak in a few replacement air groups and an LCU or two. At that point, you can't bring enough force to bear.

Finally, even if you get PH, you will probably NEVER get Palembang with this strategy. Not securing Palembang means you run out of fuel in late '44 in the best case as IJ, Palembang is almost 50% of your total historical oil income.

Termy, above, was being generous with the 7 - 8 months becuase that is predicated upon historical fuel consumption. This strategy will have far higher than historical fuel consumption and so your time horizon compresses dramatically.

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RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/8/2013 1:29:07 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		The other issue is that Japan, in this game anyway, cannot deviate too much from the historical path for the reasons noted above. The best you can do is take troops out of Manchuria and overrun China. This is what I did and had a 500 CV shortage against Russian activation for several months . While fun, I found that the game will end at the start of '43 with an AV due to this.

The major issue with avoiding the PI is that Allied subs will now have a very nice port to operate from. Even the AI can cause you massive issues with that. And heaven help you if the Allies ever get better AC in the Area. The PH has enough resources to run at least the LI there so supplies will be locally generate without needing any convoys. So all in all a really bad idea to leave the PI along, even against the AI.

You can invade Oz (I did that too ) Most of Northern Oz, including Cooktown are mine. Could not quite get Townsville . I wanted to get the Fiji's too, but between trying to take Darwin, keep Cooktown, and overrun China, I just did not have the LCUs to do it all. It took forever to get Darwin due to waiting for enough troops from other areas.

While I did take Norema, it is a bitch to operate in that area for Japan. Not only due to the fuel you will suck up just sailing to and from (I am having major issues keeping enough fuel in Rabal and Truk) not to mention running out of flight ops and having to sail back to Rabal to refuel/rearm. While the Allies can just go to Fiji and do the same thing. Even if you got Fiji, to get enough Nav support, supplies, etc. to actual use it will take months. The earliest you could get to Fiji with enough to take it would be March/April at the earliest since there are more important bases that need to be captured first. While they could be bypassed, even the AI will reinforce them and cause you issues while you romp and play in SoPac.

If you really want to do something different, you could go invade Cylon once the DEI was secured. You could also continue around the Western part of Oz and get Perth. Or you could make a major effort to get Cold Harbor. That's about it.

It just depends on the type of game you want against the AI. You can easily get an AV if that is what you want. If you really want a game that will last into '45 though, then play semi-historical and limit yourself to the following

* Advance in China so a land route is open between China and Indochina, plus capture Sian and then stop
* Take Northern Oz (maybe Perth/Cooktown/Townsville) and stop
* go no further than Normia and stop
* Get to Cold Harbor and stop
* get all of Burma and do not go into India

The above gives the AI scripts a decent framework that it can handle better than invading Pearl, overruning OZ, etc. If you REALLY want to try those things, then you need a PBEM game as that is the only way those actions can be effectively countered. Of course, very few people try these things in a PBEM game simply because they know what could occur . The AI is the same since it was developed to counter realitive historical actions by both sides. So if you would not want to try something against a human opponent then do not try it against the AI if you want a decent game.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 9
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/8/2013 2:15:51 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I haven't had trouble with pushing deep against the AI, so long as I was doing it in a progressive fashion. I have all of Australia that I'm "allowed" to take except for the SW corner, and it was a tough fight for the NE corner. Once I finally won up there, it was easier to go down the coast for sure...

The AI also reacted very strongly to me taking Noumea and Luganville - I actually lost Luganville, but was able to hold onto Noumea (though there's still 1K Allied AV starving there vs. 750 of mine). I expected the AI to coming knocking there again, or to try to reinforce Australia, perhaps with a counterinvasion in the north. On one of the turns I had to do head to head (it sent its remaining CVEs within 8 hexes of Tokyo, with 4 escorts) I noticed that it was prepping units in CONUS for NE Australia, with low prep values and after I had taken it. So it clearly reacts in some fashion.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 10
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/8/2013 4:50:00 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I haven't had trouble with pushing deep against the AI, so long as I was doing it in a progressive fashion.

+1

My experience as well. It is the deep moves that will unhinge the AI very quickly. Landing at Perth as your first place in OZ for example. Almost guaranteed to end your AI game. So you win, but was that fun?

However, keep a steady front with probing or encircling attacks (not too deep though) and the AI can fight quite well. Particularly in any of the Ironman scenarios. I've had several games go 18 - 28 months before I ended it. Then I've played the later scenarios as well several times to finish, again with fun results against the AI.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 11
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/8/2013 8:35:46 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lonewolf

Playing Grand Campaign (or one of the variations) as Japanese against AI Allies. Have anyone try to start the war with alternate plans? Obviously you will have to uncheck historical first turn to re-order all preset stuff.

Alternate plans in my mind will be something along these lines:
- Skip the Malaya campaign. Either box in Singapore or send every invasion task force there on turn 1.
- Skip Philippines and possibly Malaya. Go straight to South Pacific, occupy Fiji etc and maybe take over Australia.
- Invade Hawaii on turn 1, right after the Pearl Harbor attack.
- Attack west coast of North America right from the start. Essentially send everything there ASAP. Occupy Alaska to use an intermediate base.


I just want to know before I invest days to play the first month of war to find out....

First turn "magical move" only gives you 20 days of movements, so it is not like you can land anywhere you want. Probably you can land in Java, or around Singapore, but not much further. So the only important alternative target in first turn would be Russia, and I do not think you should attack it, before cutting land route to China, because they will send supply there in case of war.

Taking PH is probably possible, but first you have to take some bases nearby to rearm. I do not see much benefits of such move though.
Your best bet would be OZ, and NZ, as they are isolated "islands", but again, there is no hurry for such move. Manila have lots of fuel, so it is better to catch it quickly, rather than allowing Allied subs to use it against you.

(in reply to Lonewolf)
Post #: 12
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/8/2013 11:50:03 PM   
Lonewolf


Posts: 61
Joined: 9/21/2002
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice about Palembang oilfield. I decided to land few SNLF on it to grab it while the battle for Singapore and Philippines are still raging. Bataan will take time since its defense is strong. I think that 40000 troops will be worn down in a matter of weeks with no re-supply. Jahore Bahru may take a while longer with some troops marching down the Malaysian peninsular to reinforce it. I think I can scrounge up some troops from Philippines to take some oil and resources from DEI.

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 13
RE: Alternate plan playing as Japan against AI Allies - 6/11/2013 4:27:38 AM   
pcellsworth

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 4/28/2013
Status: offline 		One of the reasons the AI get confused as the active script is trying to defend a series of bases that have been bypassed. The script that needs to be active is still waiting to be activated even though you have troops on some distant base. It would take a huge number of script to cover every possibility and there just isn't the space. The limit is 400 scripts if I remember correctly. I'm not an expert on the internals but I've done a few scripts and I am starting to get an idea of how it works. So I would recommend not get to far from the historical.

Also, if you get to far from Japan you have a huge cost to support the troops, especially in fuel.

(in reply to Lonewolf)
Post #: 14
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