RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" issue?

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RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 1:29:58 AM

DeadlyShoe

Posts: 217
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Wonders really are still too powerful. Especially Trader's Bazaar. My arch rival in a current game has a much smaller empire but nearly equal income just because of Trader's Bazaar. If the player gets it it's basically an auto-win.

And unfortunately because of how they're unlocked Wonders are a bit of a slippery slope mechanic. The best get better and the worst get further behind.

Shakturi kinda screw with it too if you are on anything slower than default tech rate. because they arrive then build every high end wonder. So they have infinite money on top of everything else.

The wonder upkeep costs don't really do anything.

One thing Civ 5 had was per-civilization wonders. I think a lot of the wonders could stand to be per-civ rather than per-galaxy. After some toning down.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 31

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 10:48:53 AM

Kruos

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From: France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe

Wonders really are still too powerful. Especially Trader's Bazaar. My arch rival in a current game has a much smaller empire but nearly equal income just because of Trader's Bazaar. If the player gets it it's basically an auto-win.

And unfortunately because of how they're unlocked Wonders are a bit of a slippery slope mechanic. The best get better and the worst get further behind.

Shakturi kinda screw with it too if you are on anything slower than default tech rate. because they arrive then build every high end wonder. So they have infinite money on top of everything else.

The wonder upkeep costs don't really do anything.

One thing Civ 5 had was per-civilization wonders. I think a lot of the wonders could stand to be per-civ rather than per-galaxy. After some toning down.

I tend to agree.

I am finishing a big game with the Zenox (1400-10x10-hard-defaultcorruption) and I am litteraly swimming in money. I have to say that the early-mid game eco was very well balanced and pleasant, until I built a wonder on my home world which gave me a +30% dev bonus. Then money began to flow widely, with something like +100k cashflow, whereas I had only 3-4 colonies with lot of defensives bases and a small fleet...

I will start another big game with heavy corruption to see if the eco is better balanced with that setting. But I have the feeling that even with that, wonder will still be a 'I win button' for the economy balance. TBC.

< Message edited by Kruos -- 6/4/2013 10:51:17 AM >

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)

Post #: 32

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 11:00:30 AM

Kruos

Posts: 129
Joined: 5/5/2010
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quote:

I like how wonders allow you to focus on a smaller more vertical empire instead trying to sprawl everywhere, but they might be too powerful in Shadows. At least the way the High-Tech tree is right now, it seems like it's too easy to snowball. I had weird map settings though: 250 stars, 6x6, varied clusters on Normal with 8 empires. It might be harder to turtle on a denser map with more stars and more enemies nearby.

Same feeling here.

The development bonuses they give is perhaps a little bit too much. Moreover, I think that some constraint could be added to unlock them. I think they are maybe too easy to build. Why not include something like "have [facilityX] in every colonies" to allow the build? Or another mechanism wich could reinforce the 'vertical empire' concept?.

(in reply to invaderzim)

Post #: 33

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 4:06:41 PM

t1it

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/23/2011
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I agree fully to the 'wonders OP' sentiment. I've just build all of them now in my Quameno game and I think I'm quitting that game now...too much money X:
These wonders obviously needs a huge nerf.

(in reply to Kruos)

Post #: 34

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 5:49:14 PM

TrooperCooper

Posts: 80
Joined: 1/29/2013
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Yes, I agree on a needed wonders nerf.

I had a game just now without pirates. I wanted the good old empire wars. And I actually got into that pretty soon at the beginning. It was a fierce conflict with ongoing battles in numerous systems, invasions on both sides of the fence. Slowly but steadily I gained the upper hand. I felt like making real progress. Then I finnished a wonder on my homeworld, which (aside from +100% HT research) gave me another 300k income... which basically allowed me to double my standing forces right away. Now I am pretty much untouchable and begin to snowball.

Thing with wonders is that they make you to powerfull... but you are shooting yourself if you intentionally dont go for them...

(in reply to t1it)

Post #: 35

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 6:31:46 PM

Buio

Posts: 247
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Hope we get a wonders fix in a patch soon. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with the new economy. I'm not a min/max player though.

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Post #: 36

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 8:03:21 PM

Bloodly

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/14/2010
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Money? Not so much. But then, money is never the restraint(Possibly 'is not meant to be'), resources and resource transport are. And these days, resources are or can be a problem.

Then again, I'm biased. I play with the Securans and with 999k Tech costs, so things can take a very long time, which means build up isn't that much of a problem.

< Message edited by Bloodly -- 6/4/2013 8:04:49 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/4/2013 10:52:06 PM

Litcube

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Joined: 7/19/2011
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To answer OPS question: no, the game still costs twice as much as a triple A title.

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Post #: 38

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/5/2013 4:17:15 AM

turtlefang

Posts: 334
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I haven't had a "runaway" money game yet like I did on a regular basis before the expansion. Typically, money will get a lot looser in the late game than early or middle game but I would expect that in most games as long as you don't overbuild.

The starting conditions make a huge difference - on excellence, money fairly easy; on normal, it is tight; on harsh, your going to be counting pennies for a long time. And part of it also depends on the pirate level. Interesting, normal, so far, ends up with a much more difficult problem than many - the normal Pirates are fewer but much much stronger and harder to deal with - and help put a check on your economy. The many ends up with a lot more but weaker.

(in reply to Litcube)

Post #: 39

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/5/2013 6:22:12 AM

DaveDash

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I tend to play as Democracy/Republic and I find I'm mostly in the red income wise.

However, yeah, Wonders make a huge difference.

(in reply to turtlefang)

Post #: 40

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/5/2013 5:53:22 PM

Plant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly

Money? Not so much. But then, money is never the restraint(Possibly 'is not meant to be'), resources and resource transport are. And these days, resources are or can be a problem.

Then again, I'm biased. I play with the Securans and with 999k Tech costs, so things can take a very long time, which means build up isn't that much of a problem.

Securans are always rich, because of Utopian government and their natural birthrate, by the 10th year when you might have a proper hyperdrive to start colonising, they already have twice the income as most of the other races. Then they have an explosive growth rate when they start colonising.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LitcubeTo answer OPS question: no, the game still costs twice as much as a triple A title.

Hahaha

Other than the one game with mysterious money lost of 10-15k a year, I haven't had much too much money problems, I just simply build more military ships and construct more starports to build them, whenever I can.

As for wonders, they are poorly implemented, in that they aren't evenly distributed, and it makes no sense for a space faring game to have wonders that can only be built once, and without particularily interesting effects. This has always existed though in Legends, though I guess having one planets for 10 years accentuates the issue. I don't bother rushing for wonders, but I agree that per-civ instead of per galaxy makes a lot more sense.

(in reply to Bloodly)

Post #: 41

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/7/2013 7:23:00 PM

sPOONz

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Joined: 12/21/2011
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I like the wonders as they are. I think keeping them as one offs adds added strategy. Making the wonders available for all races diminishes their purpose. I have not played enough late-games to comment on their balance but I'm definitely in the 'one wonder only' camp. Too me they are interesting game changers much like when an a.i race gets their hands on an abandoned capital ship and gets an sudden advantage. Keeps you on your toes.

(in reply to Plant)

Post #: 42

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/7/2013 7:36:55 PM

invaderzim

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
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I wouldn't mind a checkbox or slider that limits the amount of wonders you can build for an extra challenge. I find getting Open Trade Network + Unlimited Commerce and the three research doublers by midgame is a bit too powerful. There's not much in the high-tech tree that you really need to research instead of stealing except maybe Long Range Scanners (I try to simply invade independent colonies and steal Colonization tech later if I can get away with it).

(in reply to sPOONz)

Post #: 43

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/7/2013 7:49:09 PM

sPOONz

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Perhaps it depends on how you play? I never find myself dominating the wonders, I don't rush for them tho. I guess I play a more 'roleplaying' style than 'play to win'. Can spies destroy them? That would add in some dynamics if they can.

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Post #: 44

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/8/2013 4:08:57 AM

HJFudge

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Joined: 6/8/2013
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After I get a wonder or two, it certainly helps. But this last game, Ive been 300k in the red and only been able to keep afloat through selling off my tech. The economy in Shadows seems much more tight. Even after getting a wonder in this game, Im still 200k in the red. Hahaha I need to keep my warmachine active and conquering new worlds so I can keep myself from going entirely bankrupt!

(in reply to sPOONz)

Post #: 45

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/8/2013 10:58:36 AM

Oberst_Klink

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My experience so far playing pre-warp empires is, that the ships and bases are dead cheap, but that's perhaps because they're pre-warp technology? So far I have had quite a good balance sheet. I guess I have to play a bit longer to see how it goes; but so far it's very fascinating, even for the Oberst :)
Once Luftwaffe, now the Sternenwaffe :)

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(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 46

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/8/2013 4:06:33 PM

solops

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I'd like an option to disable all Wonders in the game setup.

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Post #: 47

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 6/8/2013 4:08:47 PM

solops

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I'd like an option to disable all Wonders in the game setup.

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Post #: 48

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 7/9/2013 6:03:43 PM

ASHBERY76

Posts: 2136
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From: England
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When you get 8+ colonies pumping the game becomes a build everything with little consequence again.Yes you can spend money on the usual crash research but the economy stil bloats beyond the game mechanics.I also think the huge amount of ships late game add lots of player management and performance issues.

Why is money so high in general? In Civ,EU,TW you never reach past 2000 gold even with rich empires.

Love the game but its never really been balanced properly.The economy and the reputation mechanics has not really mattered since vanilla and diplomacy needs enforced cool down periods after every treaty.

I hope the economy is opened up with the modding expansion.At least that's something.

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Post #: 49

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 7/10/2013 1:08:23 AM

endoric_MatrixForum

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Joined: 6/14/2012
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I find the early economy super simple in the new expansion, but i have not played a full long game yet.

What i do is I right away set my one colony to zero tax, let the colony hit max population and then I raise the tax rate to 45 to 50%. I usually have enough cash to make it to max population before i start building my fleet and discover hyperspace tech.

after that my one colony is the only one with tax at all.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 50

RE: Has Shadows fixed the "too much money" is... - 7/10/2013 9:51:30 AM

feelotraveller

Posts: 1040
Joined: 9/12/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: endoric

I find the early economy super simple in the new expansion, but i have not played a full long game yet.

What i do is I right away set my one colony to zero tax, let the colony hit max population and then I raise the tax rate to 45 to 50%. I usually have enough cash to make it to max population before i start building my fleet and discover hyperspace tech.

after that my one colony is the only one with tax at all.

I do the same. For me it continues through the game as the large tax inflow from your max pop capital allows zero tax on all other colonies until they max out population.

The early economy is far less challenging than Legends. Getting paid for all those early mining stations while steel prices are maxed out makes it so simple. No need to tax at all. (Worth ordering your constructors before prices skyrocket as you will get them at less than half what you will pay if you wait.)

(in reply to endoric_MatrixForum)

Post #: 51