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Pirate Feedback - 6/2/2013 1:47:15 AM   
DeadlyShoe


Posts: 217
Joined: 6/2/2013
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Let me first say I'm very impressed by Shadows so far, and think it has done great things for the game. But after playing pirate factions several times now I have some (hopefully constructive!) criticisms. These are roughly presented in the order of how aggravating or important I find them.

* Blowing up your own pirate base

This is incredibly aggravating. 50% or more of the time when building a pirate base, MY OWN ships will raid the colony and start a battle where MY raiders + the colonial militia destroy MY under-construction pirate base. BLUGH. Please, please add a sanity check for this. I have no doubt the AI pirates suffer from the same problem.

* Excessive micro for raiding

It's too difficult to actually conduct raids manually, except against planets. You don't have any interface for selecting targets that are currently in the fog of war, even if you know there are stations there. You also need to assign raid targets individually and manually (since its a waste to attack 1 station with 4 ships, for example.) So typically I have to order a group of ships to fly to a system, ride herd on them until they get there, and then individually/slowly parcel out raid orders for stations.

I suggest either a raiding targets list/interface, OR a new order called Raid System where a fleet auto-selects targets in the system for raiding, OR an expansion of the Boarding/Capture Policy interface to add Raiding options.

Two other minor grievances for raiding: I have to go into the message archive to see what I received (if i miss the popup) because the message is solong, and it's not clear where stolen resources go. My spaceport? Not sure.

* Protection agreements

Theoretically this should be a core mechanic of piracy, but it is not in practice because empires rescind the agreement quickly and almost never reaccept it. I've tried leaving empires alone, I've tried minor periphery raids, and I've tried blowing them back to the stone age: Nothing will make empires re-accept protection agreements. Furthermore, the amount demanded seems arbitrary and sometimes seems very little.

* Mercenary missions

Defence missions don't seem to work very well, particularly for planets. The rewards offered are often meaningless (1000-2000 credits, for a 2 year commitment of ships?) and they are impossible to complete in practice unless enemies leave you entirely alone. A single ship landing raid shuttles causes the mission to fail even if you have say a pirate base on the planet and easily quash the raiding party.

There's also a weird thing where an empire issued 10 defence missions in the same system at the same time, which was great but suggest that a single Defend System mission would be better suited than numerous Defend Stations.

Suggestion: Rework defence missions. Perhaps you get X money per Y ships you are defending the target with per month, up to a max per ship, with a penalty for landed raiding shuttles and a bonus for destroyed attackers. Or you just suffer a penalty of whatever raiding losses the planet suffers.

Attack missions seem to work alright, except I *think* I failed one when my ship auto-captured a target base - even though I scrapped it after.

Additional suggestion: Add a Bounty mission, where an empire pays 1 credit per credit of ship value destroyed up to the max in the mission order.

* Smuggling issues: Not enough freighters

I find that if I build even a small number of mining stations any reasonable number of transports are wholly occupied with transporting their goods around. This makes smuggling sort of... luck based? Or requires you to not build stations, not even refueling points. Which is weird when you are playing a market monopoly faction. :)

I think it might be a good idea to explicitly seperate Smugglers from normal freighters. Smugglers only fulfill smuggling missions and idle otherwise.

* Resorts don't work?

I can't get pirate Resort Bases or Passenger Ships to work at all. :)
Post #: 1
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/2/2013 2:45:19 AM   
DeadlyShoe


Posts: 217
Joined: 6/2/2013
Status: offline 		Oh also an exploit.

If you sit on an imperial homeworld in the early game they'll keep building construction ships, you can capture them, then they retrofit to having hyperdrives at the planet you are camping. Ahurrrr.

Related: Resupply ships are seemingly too powerful for pirates to start with.... imo. They can obliterate early empires by themselves.

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
Post #: 2
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/2/2013 10:36:48 PM   
Zangi

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/23/2009
Status: offline 		Have you updated the game? The first issue should be fixed or at least I didn't see it become a problem unless it was some ship coming from 5 sectors away...

@Protection Agreements
I totally agree here. It may be a hold over from before shadows. After they hate you enough, despite the fact that you can and probably have blown em to hell... they still refuse 'protection'.

Also, I managed to protect a colony all the way to +1500m population and I had a Pirate Fortress there. A new empire formed on that colony.
They kept on breaking protection at first... then relations worsened enough that they stopped accepting protection. (Though, protection might be broken cause of random pirate raiders suddenly taking an interest and suicide bombing in droves, turning the defenders against me...)
I could have easily stuck around and blown up 90% of the pirate raiders before they landed, at least long enough for them to 'break out' of their starting system.

Now, they are in the stone age with 10m pop after beating their heads against my Pirate Fortress constantly. The Pirate Fortress+Base finally gets destroyed when a random pirate faction comes in with +10 ships... (I already gave up on it when its population dropped to around 200m and the place was in the stone age anyways.)

Request:
1. Planet Defenders/militia stop joining the pirate raiders side automatically when it gets attacked.
2. Lower collateral damage(population casualty rate) in ground battles, at least when lower pop and/or in pirate raids.
3. More sanity in protection agreements. Heck, even add in a pay a pirate to back off for X time deal if the AI doesn't want to go into a protection agreement... They should at least know that they are losing, badly and be willing to pay to survive.
4. Allow me to reinforce my pirate base/fortress/criminal network when it is under attack / mid-battle. (They currently join the attackers and I cannot see the matchup/numbers/how badly I'm losing.)

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
Post #: 3
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/2/2013 11:02:06 PM   
bvoid

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 5/16/2013
Status: offline 		How to dominate as a pirate:
Start game as pirate in age of shadows.
Make beeline for nearest known empire homeworld.
Capture their unshielded starport.

Now the fun begins... pirate controlled spaceport will take a cut of all the trading done at the planet (including any bonus smuggling cash). This means trade from your smugglers and EVERYONE elses. It will also boost your control of the planet and lock them down (instapop any new construction).

The amount of cash this generates is crazy, it's super easy to do, and the empire cannot defend against it whatsoever. Once the first spaceport is captured you can then move your fleet to capture the next one etc. So yeah I had to stop doing this as the game was not fun anymore. Depending on how many empires start nearby you can keep your boot firmly applied to the necks of several of them. There is a massive snowball effect here too, as the income this brings in = more fleets = more income. Could also do this to independents if they built spaceports...

Suggested balancing fix: Trade to a planet should not go through hostile starport. Alternatively make starport autodestruct if orbiting a hostile planet?

More comments about pirates:
Why can't they build research bases? They can put 20 labs on a normal spaceport, is that not the same?
Pirates can get scientists, but they can't use them? Yes I transferred the scientists to the pirate starport that had some labs. I don't see the scientists bonus showing up on the tech screen (as with normal empire).

Pirate research should be balanced via empire research potential, not by disallowing research bases and scientists.

Freighters:
Since pirates don't have a private sector to autobuild these the advisor should give recommendations. Maybe we need a second build screen for private ships?

Double-colony bug:
This seems to happen when pirate faction changes into an empire (ie when they get full control of 1st colony). You end up with 2 entries in the colony list, I assume one is the original "pirate controlled colony" and the second is from the "full control colony". Bug only happens when the first planet gets captured/colonised - whether via pirate fortress or via (found) colony ship. This seems to be just a cosmetic bug... It does persist after a reload and might skew empire power/other ai stuff.

Ground troops + raider = bugs:
Similarly to the above, once you start getting proper ground troops as a pirate strange things can happen. Once you get your first ground troops, you might like to go around invading planets (which you already likely have pirate bases on). Sometimes this works ok, sometimes you end up fighting your own garrison. Was still acting odd in the last patch, I will try to investigate and make proper bug reports on this one...

< Message edited by bvoid -- 6/2/2013 11:21:05 PM >

(in reply to Zangi)
Post #: 4
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/3/2013 12:12:36 AM   
DeadlyShoe


Posts: 217
Joined: 6/2/2013
Status: offline 		^^ I think casualties in ground battles are way too high overall. Any significant fight can easily kill billions of people, even if one side had no chance of actually winning. Small colonies get butchered down to 10m very quickly. Similarly, if you try to clear a pirate base as an empire, you're likely to kill off way more of your tax base than you gain in corruption reduction.

Perhaps troops should never join raiders in a fight, and/or raider fights should never involve militia/pop if there's a pirate base.

Also, I've been running in 1903, and the my pirates are still raiding my own colonies + other ground weirdness. It's not alleviated yet. I think some of it has even been caused by the pirate fortress defense change in 1902.

quote:


Why can't they build research bases? They can put 20 labs on a normal spaceport, is that not the same?
Pirates can get scientists, but they can't use them? Yes I transferred the scientists to the pirate starport that had some labs. I don't see the scientists bonus showing up on the tech screen (as with normal empire).

Pirate research should be balanced via empire research potential, not by disallowing research bases and scientists.

I sort of agree, except pirate potential is so low than you can hit it with space ports anyway. IMO, pirates should be encouraged to raid for tech advantages rather than getting passive bonuses like empires.

PS the starport thing is hilarious. I'm beginning to think empires should start with a really ****ty shield generator(like 30-40 points per generator) so that starting shadows ships are pathetic instead of shuttle-bait.

< Message edited by DeadlyShoe -- 6/3/2013 12:44:38 AM >

(in reply to bvoid)
Post #: 5
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/3/2013 4:11:12 PM   
Plant


Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
Status: offline 		Your own raiders attacking your own pirate bases is very odd. I have to check whether I have a pirate base before I raid.

Raiding is the only reason I have automated ships. From what I observed automated ships seem obsessed with raiding the same planet over and over again and returning for refuelling in a steady conveyor belt, with no concern for patrolling or raiding together in strength. It's very strange.

Protection prices and agreements make no sense. I had Empires cancelling protection agreements, then I go and completely negate their chances of ever bing a spacefaring civilisation by destroying every base and ship they ever have or will have. Prices range from 180-5k, and they care not for renewing agreements even if you have massive forces in their system. They never seem to get agreements once a few ships are destroyed, becuase theya re angry with you, which is most bizarre considering that you would expect the ability to destroy their ships and bases would be the most important factor for protection agreements. As it is right now, it is completely nonsensical.

Defence missions are completely not worth it. The amount paid is a pittance, even if you could defend the planet from raids. The maintainence cost of the ships protecting the colony often exceeds the pay of protecting a colony for 2 years, not to mention the opportunity cost of not having those ships elsewhere.

As for capturing constructing starports...hahaha.
I've once captured a defence platform though. That was funny.

As for not being able to build research stations is a bit odd, since you can put research labs on starports and build those instead. It really doesn't make sense.

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
Post #: 6
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/3/2013 5:44:54 PM   
Bloodly

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/14/2010
Status: offline 		There's currently an issue with captured ships auto-destructing with no reason given. Given capturing ships is the whole point, and you don't get many construction ships so some can potentially be waiting a long time for repairs, it kinda takes away from it both for Pirates and normal empires with boarding tech.

(in reply to Plant)
Post #: 7
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/3/2013 5:57:57 PM   
invaderzim

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadlyShoe
* Excessive micro for raiding

It's too difficult to actually conduct raids manually, except against planets. You don't have any interface for selecting targets that are currently in the fog of war, even if you know there are stations there. You also need to assign raid targets individually and manually (since its a waste to attack 1 station with 4 ships, for example.) So typically I have to order a group of ships to fly to a system, ride herd on them until they get there, and then individually/slowly parcel out raid orders for stations.

I suggest either a raiding targets list/interface, OR a new order called Raid System where a fleet auto-selects targets in the system for raiding, OR an expansion of the Boarding/Capture Policy interface to add Raiding options.

Two other minor grievances for raiding: I have to go into the message archive to see what I received (if i miss the popup) because the message is solong, and it's not clear where stolen resources go. My spaceport? Not sure.


I'm with you on this. An option to continue raiding a planet until you fully control and build bases along the way would help too. It takes a long time to fully gain control over an empire's home planet, so I'd like to be able to order a fleet to go there and keep raiding until the job is done.

Right now, you need to wait for the assault pods to regenerate, and then wait for the "recently raided" cooldown to disappear and then repeat this again and again until you have 100% control. To make the best use of your fleet, it would be helpful if you could order a fleet to raid one planet, wait for assault pods to regenerate or optionally raid another system and and return to the original planet and raid it again.

< Message edited by invaderzim -- 6/3/2013 5:58:15 PM >

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
Post #: 8
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/3/2013 9:25:27 PM   
Bloodly

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/14/2010
Status: offline 		Raiding can be odd though. The pods can regen before an attack is done, allowing double or triple-dipping. On the other hand, it's saving you money and against a more built up planet early on you'll want that ability.

(in reply to invaderzim)
Post #: 9
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/3/2013 9:52:37 PM   
DeadlyShoe


Posts: 217
Joined: 6/2/2013
Status: offline
quote:

There's currently an issue with captured ships auto-destructing with no reason given. Given capturing ships is the whole point, and you don't get many construction ships so some can potentially be waiting a long time for repairs, it kinda takes away from it both for Pirates and normal empires with boarding tech.

This sounds like they're being auto-scrapped as per your empire policy re: captures

quote:

Raiding can be odd though. The pods can regen before an attack is done, allowing double or triple-dipping. On the other hand, it's saving you money and against a more built up planet early on you'll want that ability.

It's really odd, since fights against homeworlds will last longer than that...

Perhaps raids should be hard limited to 2 minutes

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 10
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/3/2013 9:58:57 PM   
invaderzim

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline
quote:

There's currently an issue with captured ships auto-destructing with no reason given. Given capturing ships is the whole point, and you don't get many construction ships so some can potentially be waiting a long time for repairs, it kinda takes away from it both for Pirates and normal empires with boarding tech.


If your ships are too powerful or if there are too many slow projectiles flying around you will often destroy a boarded ship before it's captured. Also you can't modify the engagement rules for your star fighters and bombers. This means that they will continue to shoot at boarded ships while you are trying to capture them. To prevent this, you CAN spam the command that tells them to dock while running the game slowly, but this is extremely tedious and usually not worth it.

< Message edited by invaderzim -- 6/3/2013 10:00:16 PM >

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
Post #: 11
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/4/2013 4:32:55 AM   
Zangi

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/23/2009
Status: offline 		A very very blargh moment.

I am currently playing Empire-Shadow mode. I let pirates build bases on my newly colonized planets. We bros, plus I'm being laissez faire with diplomacy. As long as they do not attack me.
Here is the problem though... my AI keeps throwing troops at the hidden bases, regardless of protection status and being overwhelmed. (Apparently it does not break the protection agreement.) My first reaction is to be pretty peeved about that, cause that means massive depopulation for no good reason and this really should be fixed.

(in reply to invaderzim)
Post #: 12
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/4/2013 10:59:12 AM   
Bloodly

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/14/2010
Status: offline 		This sounds like they're being auto-scrapped as per your empire policy re: captures

No. My policy is 'assimilate all', besides which, if they were being destroyed as per policy, it would tell you that.

If your ships are too powerful or if there are too many slow projectiles flying around you will often destroy a boarded ship before it's captured.

Not the case. They have been captured perfectly-no slow fire, no torpedoes. They are captured(You receive notification), float around a bit, you receive notification that a construction ship should be sent....then they blow up.

(in reply to Zangi)
Post #: 13
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/4/2013 11:39:15 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
No. My policy is 'assimilate all', besides which, if they were being destroyed as per policy, it would tell you that.

I suspect you're thinking of your population migration settings. Where captured ships are concerned, you need to access your "Empire Policy and Automation" screen (see below).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
Not the case. They have been captured perfectly-no slow fire, no torpedoes. They are captured(You receive notification), float around a bit, you receive notification that a construction ship should be sent....then they blow up.

Check your empire settings (Set Empire Policy and Automation). Go to the "Boarding & Capture" section. Make sure both civilian and military ships are set to "enlist" and "always disassemble at port for tech" - that should stop them from going pop immediately. Captured ships are on automated control and will try to disassemble if there's any tech to be gained, but at least you can grab it manually and stop that. You may be blowing the ships up due to one or both being set to "scrap for money". Do not have either "scrap for money" option set. Check them BOTH. I say BOTH, because it seems that constructor ships are considered "civilian".

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 6/4/2013 11:41:01 AM >

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 14
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/4/2013 1:09:37 PM   
Bloodly

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 4/14/2010
Status: offline 		Both are set to Always Enlist. Disassembly is set for 'If High-Tech'. This sounds like the Disassembly is taking priority over 'Always Enlist' AND the 'Upgrade ships to latest design'. I also note there is no 'Never Disassemble'. And I note that I've seen footage that when a ship is auto-disassembled, you get a message noting it. This does not occur.

...

That is STUPID. The whole reason I'm bothering to capture is I want the damm ship. If I wanted it blown up, I'd have blown it up. And it also means there's no 'stealing freighters to make a smuggler fleet' which is how Pirates should be, since killing ships or capture/kill is worth a pittance and you can't 'stop' an automated ship like a freighter.

I must also note that captured Starports have never blown up. And it seems to be variable if they blow up or not.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a bug or stupidity.

< Message edited by Bloodly -- 6/4/2013 1:15:26 PM >

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 15
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/4/2013 2:28:37 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
Both are set to Always Enlist. Disassembly is set for 'If High-Tech'.

No no no - look under where you have "always enlist" selected. What does that say? There should be three option to the right of the rather poorly worded and capitalized text, "How Disassemble captured [Military/Civilian] ships"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
That is STUPID. The whole reason I'm bothering to capture is I want the damm ship. If I wanted it blown up, I'd have blown it up. And it also means there's no 'stealing freighters to make a smuggler fleet' which is how Pirates should be, since killing ships or capture/kill is worth a pittance and you can't 'stop' an automated ship like a freighter.

I agree it's confusing and annoying. I'm not defending the design - just trying to help you suss out why the ships are going pop.

Personally, I think the default settings are wrong. Default settings should be to keep what you capture and disassemble for tech at a port (if there's something to be gained). That's how I imagine most players would expect it to behave. But default capture settings seem to be set for playing a pirate that prioritizes boosting income over amassing warships. I have no idea how the default settings were determined. Ostensibly they listened to the beta testers for what would be most intuitive for a new player - so you should ask one of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
I must also note that captured Starports have never blown up. And it seems to be variable if they blow up or not.

I don't understand. If they're not blowing up, then what's the variable you're referring to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly
As far as I'm concerned, it's a bug or stupidity.

Feel free to add it as a bug report in the tech support forum. You won't be lonely. There's plenty of activity there.


< Message edited by Kayoz -- 6/4/2013 2:31:20 PM >

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Bloodly)
Post #: 16
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/4/2013 4:59:11 PM   
Plant


Posts: 418
Joined: 4/23/2013
Status: offline 		Surely dissassembly is for when you give the command to retire at spaceports? His policy is assimilate all anyhow. I noticed a few blown up ships in my games, but I assumed they happened a long time after they were captured, so I always presumed it was the game deleting private ships that were stranded after some time.

As for being able to keep adding replenishing raiders into a planets, I've done that many times. Most homeworlds take months just to win the raid, even if you outnumber them 5 to 1. I think it's really odd, that raids have to kill every last troop on a planet just to raid, especially when you have overwhelming numbers and the raid has been going on for a year.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 17
RE: Pirate Feedback - 6/5/2013 6:11:01 PM   
invaderzim

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline 		Has smuggling been improved in 1.9.0.4? I was barely able earn 1000 credits smuggling in the last patch. In my new game, I earned 17K last year smuggling lead. :)

Edit: It seems random based on where you start. Early on you can make a nice profit smuggling, but your profits drop when they don't need you as much.

Also the default freighters are bad. They don't have enough reactors to keep their warp drives at full speed. So smuggling takes longer than it should.

< Message edited by invaderzim -- 6/5/2013 8:02:57 PM >

(in reply to Plant)
Post #: 18
Another feature request - 6/8/2013 8:57:45 PM   
invaderzim

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline 		In order of pirate to pirate diplomacy to work, pirates need a way of staking a claim to territory and at least telling other pirates to go away. Presently the AI pirates raid any independent colonies within their range and they get mad at you for being there even if your ships were there first and you've taken 100% control of the colony.

Before a fight breaks out there should be an opportunity to negotiate some kind of deal. Otherwise it's just easier to wipe out any pirates near your territory.

(in reply to invaderzim)
Post #: 19
RE: Another feature request - 6/8/2013 10:38:42 PM   
Lev13

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 5/28/2013
Status: offline 		It is also really annoying that scout ships spread influence like military ships do. Whenever I make truce with other pirate faction, there is some stupid scout ship that decides to refuel at one of their planets and then they break truce because of the competing for same colonies.

Playing pirates is a lot of fun, but at the moment it is also very frustrating.

(in reply to invaderzim)
Post #: 20
RE: Another feature request - 6/8/2013 10:49:06 PM   
invaderzim

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline 		Yeah I agree. Pirate influence spread should be linked to the amount of firepower their nearby ships have.

(in reply to Lev13)
Post #: 21
RE: Another feature request - 6/11/2013 8:44:54 AM   
paShadoWn

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 6/10/2013
Status: offline 		Thats why you dont make truce. You eradicate them.

(in reply to Lev13)
Post #: 22
RE: Another feature request - 6/11/2013 3:13:37 PM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 279
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

Pirate influence spread should be linked to the amount of firepower their nearby ships have.


I totally agree. As it stands now its nearly impossible to keep a stable positive relationship with another pirate faction. Very frustrating.

(in reply to invaderzim)
Post #: 23
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