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Remove small and medium freighters from design, redundant

 
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Remove small and medium freighters from design, redundant - 6/10/2013 12:34:59 PM   
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paShadoWn
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Posts: 70
Joined: 6/10/2013
Status: offline 		Why will i ever design a freighter less than max size? It will be slow, low capacity and eating more maintenance due to extra reactors and whatnot per throughput.
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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 12:40:33 PM   
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Bloodly
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Status: offline 		The AI hates large freighters over small and medium, for some reason. Besides which, you may wish to fill the freighters with other things in the name of their survival. Tractor beams and assault pods are allowed in infinite quantities. The Large Freighter design, even by default, has very little space for defences as it's all taken up by cargo. The medium and small have space for more things.

< Message edited by Bloodly -- 6/10/2013 12:41:24 PM >

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 12:48:51 PM   
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paShadoWn
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Posts: 70
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Status: offline 		Survival of freighters? lol. By the current game mechanics, you get PAID for your destroyed freighters. Besides, fast charge hyperdrive is the only defence freighter ever needs.

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 1:36:15 PM   
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DeadlyShoe
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Joined: 6/2/2013
Status: offline 		well,

designs don't 'scale up' much, so there's a role for the small freighter in providing freighter designs for empires with very small construction sizes like in the age of shadows. Though you could work around that by giving +civilian ship size to every race.

but tbh the smallness of civilian designs probably adds to the game overhead so i'm all in favor of fewer larger ships and bases.

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 5:01:37 PM   
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turtlefang
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Posts: 334
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline 		This one is an old discussion.

As a note, you can only put one weapon on a freighter. And loading them with shields & armor is expensive.

Large freighters only (I have tried it). Fewer frieghters, and less efficient use. They get back to spaceports slower and tend to make more rounds to different stations until they fill up. And if you have to have a resource run to a mining station, it consumes a large freighter with little or no payload. Last, having a resource shortfall at a station or spaceport takes more time for a freighter to arrive - is usally trys to run close to full.

Medium freighter. Haven't tried a medium freighter only game, but these seem to be the most overall efficient design just by observation. I usually add one or sometimes two additional cargo bays to mine.

Small frieghters. Early in the game, this is what gets your economy going. They're cheap to build and can handle most early mission more effectively than any other frieghter. And early in the game, you need cheap on the private side so that you can build those mining bases. As you move into the early mid-game, they are much less useful just based on some quick observations. I usually add an extra cargo bay to this class, and it seems to increase efficiency by about 50% vs a 30% increase in cargo size.

And I do agree that the kalisto(?) warp drive needs to go on all freighters as soon as you get it. It is not as effiecient for crusing and you use more fuel, but it increases survival rate by allowing them to git gone quickly if in trouble.

As a note, I usually don't arm my freighters, put one armor on them, and three shields and hope they can get away if attacked.

Hope this helps.

If someone has done some definitive studies on freighters, would like to see it. These are quick observations and not centered on the most recent expansion.

(in reply to DeadlyShoe)
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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 7:00:32 PM   
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Plant
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bloodly

The AI hates large freighters over small and medium, for some reason. Besides which, you may wish to fill the freighters with other things in the name of their survival. Tractor beams and assault pods are allowed in infinite quantities. The Large Freighter design, even by default, has very little space for defences as it's all taken up by cargo. The medium and small have space for more things.

What? my mind exploded by the suggestion of infinite quantities of tractor beams and assualt pods in this post.
Other than that, I want to point out that neither medium or small have space for more things, as that suggests you are designing the ships yourself, so it is self evident that you can design them for any space.

As for your comments turtlefang, if you are designing your freighters, please stop insisting that larger ships are slower. They are only slower because you designed them to have less engines per cost/size.

I do note that you don't always need large freighters, as sometimes only small quantities are demanded to be delivered.
In Shadows as opposed to legends, the Private Sector will try to spend its money to a smaller net cashflow, so you do have a reason to be cost (maintainence) efficient in your Private Sector designs.
This change to Private Sector, is probably the most interesting change in Shadows.

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 8:04:01 PM   
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turtlefang
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Status: offline 		Plant -

I think you misunderstood the intent of the comments or I did not explain them well.

Subwarp speed, or even the type of warp speed drive, is secondary in determining the overall trip speed. The number of resource pick up stops is the primary driver in determining overall trip speed.

Freighters have to fill up to a certain amount of cargo space utilization before returning to a spaceport to unload.

This isn't the case ALL the time, but most of the time.

Based on observation, most large freighters (computer designed) make 2.7 stops per run between spaceports picking up cargo. I increased the space by two cargo pods and this allows them to more efficiently clear out a three run mining station that has had a pickup in the middle of the economic cycle. I then tested this increase and it had no impact on the number of pick up runs.

Medium freighters, on average, make 1.25 stops. I increased the cargo holds to increase the effectiveness of that second stop. Same deal, a adding an additional hole increased the pick up stops to 1.35, which I didn't want to do.

Small frieghters usually make 1 stop. And usually leave cargo behind. So I increased the cargo size by 1 hold to make them more efficient. They still make one run and increasing the number of cargo holds to 5 increased the number of pick up runs to slightly over 1. Which I didn't want to do.

So large freighters deliver more cargo to its stopping point, but take longer to get there than medium or small freighers due to the number of pick up stops.

Medium freighters also take more time than small freighters but less time than large freighters, But they also deliever less cargo at the end stop.

Small freighters are by far the fastest due to making only one stop (at least about 95% of the time). But they deliever the smallest amout of resources.

Ideally, the game should put large freighers on long, high volume routes, medium freighter on shorter, high volume routes, and small frieghters on small volume routes. And standard routes should develop over time. Reality is, the game doesn't do this. Freighters go, usually, toward the nearest resources to be picked up. If that doesn't fill the cargo space, then they go to the next place. And so on.

There is some intelligence in the routing. If a mining station has a freighter assigned to pick up cargo (regardless of size OR the distance from the mining station), then the next freighter goes to the next mining station. And each freighter picks up cargo, this resets the priority and the game looks for the next place to send the freighter to top of the cargo. And, in general, routes get picked based on location to the freighter at the time it needs another pick up point. But if that happens to be on the other side of your empire.......

So the issue with large freighters is that they usually have to make multiple stops before going to a spaceport to unload. That is what causing them to take longer, not thier subwarp speed or thier hyperdrive.

And as long as you have a different cargo ratio between the freighter classes, then you will have different speeds due to different number of pick up stops.

So, again, subwarp speed, or even the type of warp speed drive, is secondary in determining the overall trip speed. The number of resource pick up stops is the primary driver in determining overall trip speed.


(in reply to Plant)
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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 8:36:22 PM   
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invaderzim
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quote:

Survival of freighters? lol. By the current game mechanics, you get PAID for your destroyed freighters. Besides, fast charge hyperdrive is the only defence freighter ever needs.


How does this work? Does the private sector immediately buy replacement freighters from you if one is destroyed?

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/10/2013 9:44:01 PM   
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paShadoWn
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Posts: 70
Joined: 6/10/2013
Status: offline 		Not always immediately, but it does. And pays you. So the more expensive freighters you design, the better. And by maxing freighter size i dont mean putting ****ton of cargoes. Cheap freighters to save private money? Dont make me lol. Private always floats in billions of savings.

< Message edited by paShadoWn -- 6/10/2013 9:45:34 PM >

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/11/2013 4:07:05 AM   
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invaderzim
Matrix Trooper


 

Posts: 211
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline 		How much money do you make by selling a freighter? Do you get 5000 credits for a 5000 credit freighter or do you only get a percentage?

Also, could you give away your freighters to your enemies to make the private sector buy more? Seems perverse, but that could be one way to pay for a war.

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/11/2013 8:42:08 AM   
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paShadoWn
Matrix Trooper


 

Posts: 70
Joined: 6/10/2013
Status: offline 		You can simply self-d them from list but that would be exploit. As for pay, i think its full cost though i am not shure.

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/12/2013 5:29:58 PM   
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Plant
Matrix Veteran



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Joined: 4/23/2013
Status: offline 		Turtlefang-

Reread my post

quote:


I do note that you don't always need large freighters, as sometimes only small quantities are demanded to be delivered.


Edit: Turtlefang, if the above makes no sense to you, you must find that an awful lot don't make sense to you.

< Message edited by Plant -- 6/14/2013 5:19:56 PM >

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RE: Remove small and medium freighters from design, red... - 6/12/2013 8:49:51 PM   
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turtlefang
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Posts: 334
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Status: offline 		Plant -

My post address this comment of yours:

As for your comments turtlefang, if you are designing your freighters, please stop insisting that larger ships are slower. They are only slower because you designed them to have less engines per cost/size.

I made no comments on larger ships relative size to engines. This is something that you literally made up due to your bias regarding large vs small ships. My statement stands and was clear - they make more rounds to fill up. How you got to this statement is literally beyond me. I merely tried to clarify that in the following post.


I have no idea what your point your trying to make here as I the only thing I discussed was the difference in speed due to the number of stops between freighters. I made no comment on the need of different size freighters. Your going to have to clarify what your responding to here based on my last post as it currently makes no sense:

I do note that you don't always need large freighters, as sometimes only small quantities are demanded to be delivered.







(in reply to Plant)
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