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Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

 
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Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 12:09:02 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Joel, I understand you guys are working on WITW now but can we please have a fix for Soviet morale in 1941. The general consensus from most Axis players and even some Soviet players is that Soviet morale in 1941 is too high. This is making it very difficult for the Axis to make any headway against strong Soviet players. It also gives the Soviets an offensive potential in summer 1941 that is simply over the top.

The problem is that Soviet morale climbs to around 50 very fast and full strength Soviet ID end up with CV's of 20 plus when in favourable terrain and/or forts.

Soviet morale needs to be reduced by 5 pts in 1941.

I am hopeful this post will gain some support and you will act on this simple request. We are a long way off from WITE 2.0 so WITE players are stuck with this till then. There is a problem that seems to have surfaced since the missing morale rule was implemented. Since this implementation it seems Soviet units have suddenly increased their combat worthiness by 200% or indeed more.

I have read numerous posts of other Axis players encountering the same problems.

Players are being forced to tinker with morale settings to try and address the issue. This should not be an issue after so long since release. To my thinking the Soviet strength was about right in 1941, maybe a tad too strong but since this latest round of patches they have gone thru the roof.

Please do something.


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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 12:12:50 AM   
juret

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 10/17/2011
Status: offline 		i agree

i play a game againt an opponent mow. me as axis he as soviet. we are turn 3 in blizzard i think decemeber 41. And he got 2 inf divisions with 62 morale and several 61 and 62. that sounds very high for soviet play in 41 to me

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 2
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 1:08:09 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3141
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		While i understand the issue and not opposed to the suggestion as such, i fear such a change wont have the desired effect.

My experience since day 1 of this game and from what i understanding of the recent changes has only multiplied the issue. One have to understand that in reality if not in concept there is NM and then there is also a "50 moral limit".
While and this has swayed a bit forth and back during WiTEs life with different changes. Units are suppose to adhere to the NM limit aka getting over is hard. That might very well be true for combat related moral increases.
Example in early days getting axis minors higher than NM wasnt that hard and that was reined in.

Problem is that apart from the NM limit there seem to be another limit that is "the 50 moral limit". Not so incidentally the same number as u can get through via the refit +10 hexes away from enemy bonus.

While recent changes has made getting there easier its never been that hard to get to 50 moral via refit even if NM was lower.
For example both russain guard and non guard unit has always been able to get to the 50 limit via teh refit moral bonus while at the same time u could have a russian guard with the +10 moral giving it a NM in this example of lets say 55. U could get it to 50 easily, but getting it from 50 to 55 via refit was very very slow, while u could easily use the combat winning moral increase to get it to 55.

Now with the recent changes the non combat moral increas has as i understand it made getting to 50 all the more easy. This isnt a issue that is confined to the russian side. This is quote from Sigup from a few days ago.


The morale rise since 1.07 is really quick. I just discovered that with my Rumanien units. On turn 15 I railed a Rumanian division back to Rumania with morale 41 to refit. Two turns later it is already on morale 49. Another Rumanian infantry division was sent to Odessa as garrison. On turn 10 when the rails reached Odessa it was on morale 40. Turn 17 it was on morale 50, without refit.

Well the rumeanians is suppose to have a NM of 35(or it it 40 now my updated manual is a bit out of date) that doesnt stop them from attaining 50 fast as per above example depending on the curcumstances, aka refit bonus or not.

By far, tho not exclusively so, the most of russian sides moral increase in 41 comes from the non combat moral increase, and well NM moral seems to have very limited significance on the possible moral increase, but more seems guided by the "50 moral" limit. I "fear" that changes to russian NM will have a limited effect, as the above example of 35 NM rumenians shows. 35 NM doesnt stop them, so i dont think a russian 35 NM would "stop" them.

I dont think unless NM is more stricly enforced, and/or as long as we have a "50 moral limit" any decreases in NM wont have the effect u looking for, warranted or not. Also such a change so that NM was adherit too more strictly at leased in the less than 50 NM cases, then i think a lowering might not be needed as such a change would in it self decrease the currently seen moral on average/generaly. At leased instigating such a change with keeping NM at current levels for testing before possibly lowering NM.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 6/26/2013 1:46:02 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 1:09:13 AM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 394
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline 		Do you think that the new ratings are ahistorical? I am not so sure they are. It is not impossible to imagine a sov div which could stand its ground, for a while, in properly prepared positions for a week against an assault by 2-3 german divisions. I guess I am interested if you see that there is some historical basis or only game play basis for your complaint. If it is just gameplay, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed, but it does seem that you can't really say it is 'broken'. I am sometimes surprised that in the development of this game, historicity has definitely second place among the vocal critics. I don't mean that as negatively as it sounds, it is important to have good gameplay as well.... but you didn't seem to care if it modeled soviet capabilites for that point of the war as much as it got in the way of your marauding panzers....

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 1:49:22 AM   
smokindave34


Posts: 877
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for starting this thread Michael. Just look at my current AAR versus Sapper to see the results. By turn 3 (turn 3!) I'm running into Soviet CV's in the 20's and even some 30's. The blitzkrieg for me was over after turn 2. Granted I'm not the best axis player and Sapper is a very good player but that seems a bit over the top. Additionally the higher morale will result in fewer routs which are the key to any breakthrough's on the axis part.

Another byproduct of the higher morale for the Soviets is that hasty attacks by the axis are now few and far between and as a result less MP to use to exploit any openings - again slowing down the tempo of the axis '41 campaign.

< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 6/26/2013 1:51:35 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 1:49:46 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I think most Axis players would like to think they can get somewhere close to the historical lines attained with competent play in 1941. But against competent Soviet play this is just not possible. They are lucky to reach Smolensk and Stalino. Then get smashed in the blizzard unless they run for the hills.

The game as it stands right now, with no HR is an absolute lay down misere for Soviet players who know their business. Thats just not right.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 4:16:42 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I'm going to reluctantly support this, even though I think the 41 campaign has many problems and this is just one of them.

For a very long time the game was balanced around gradual Soviet morale increases. As a practical matter the Red Army averaged around 45 morale during 1941. Some units less, some units more. Now the Red Army is capable of rapidly reaching 50 morale very early on. This has a disproportionate effect on the game that was never properly tested. First of all, in raw terms, it's a straight up 10% CV increase across the board. That by itself is problematic.

But more importantly, 50 morale is an important benchmark in combat effectiveness for a defender, far more than the raw CV would indicate. At this level it becomes very difficult to rout units, and the Red Army goes from being brittle to stout. Everything past 50 is to some extent gravy: better CVs, better mobility. But from the defender's standpoint, that 50 morale figure is the most important benchmark in the game. When and if you can reach it, it becomes a lot harder to hustle a defender out of any given position because so long as they have a clear retreat path, they can fall back in good order and fight again rather than rout to a random location.

At 40 or less routs become practically automatic results on any retreat. So we are working within a very narrow morale range, 40-50. The old mechanics accidentally struck the sweet spot for the Red Army, where it might sometimes rout, but sometimes retreat in good order. We arrived at this pragmatically and despite the longstanding morale bug. In correcting that bug we have undone the pragmatic solution and changed the combat dynamic at the tactical level in a way that tends to unbalance the game early on.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/26/2013 4:20:19 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 9:59:38 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T


Soviet morale needs to be reduced by 5 pts in 1941.





Its not broken its by design.

MT 2by3 could reduse SHC NM by 50 to 0

BUT as I have stated 100 times for the last 18 months SHC NM HAS ALWAYS BEEN 50 AND ALWAYS WILL BE 50!!!!!!

Walloc has it right.

People can support lowering it by 5 or 50, SHC NM is 50. Its as Walloc says there is and always has been a 50 moral limit rule.

If you want something fixed know how the game mechanics work.

Just because I say something doen't mean I am wrong.

2by3 CAN'T HELP REDUCE SHC MORAL UNDER 50 IF THEY WANTED TO.

IF someone would have believed me 18 months ago this issue would have been fixed and wite would be finnish.

The game is currently unplayable as GHC.

GHC moral will have to be given atleast a +10

or http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3355520&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/26/2013 10:22:25 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 10:25:54 AM   
Peltonx


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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I'm going to reluctantly support this, even though I think the 41 campaign has many problems and this is just one of them.

For a very long time the game was balanced around gradual Soviet morale increases. As a practical matter the Red Army averaged around 45 morale during 1941. Some units less, some units more. Now the Red Army is capable of rapidly reaching 50 morale very early on. This has a disproportionate effect on the game that was never properly tested. First of all, in raw terms, it's a straight up 10% CV increase across the board. That by itself is problematic.

But more importantly, 50 morale is an important benchmark in combat effectiveness for a defender, far more than the raw CV would indicate. At this level it becomes very difficult to rout units, and the Red Army goes from being brittle to stout. Everything past 50 is to some extent gravy: better CVs, better mobility. But from the defender's standpoint, that 50 morale figure is the most important benchmark in the game. When and if you can reach it, it becomes a lot harder to hustle a defender out of any given position because so long as they have a clear retreat path, they can fall back in good order and fight again rather than rout to a random location.

At 40 or less routs become practically automatic results on any retreat. So we are working within a very narrow morale range, 40-50. The old mechanics accidentally struck the sweet spot for the Red Army, where it might sometimes rout, but sometimes retreat in good order. We arrived at this pragmatically and despite the longstanding morale bug. In correcting that bug we have undone the pragmatic solution and changed the combat dynamic at the tactical level in a way that tends to unbalance the game early on.


All very good stuff, but the hard coded NM(50) needs to be lowered to 45. Not GHC or SHC NM levels, but the hard coded 50 lvl to 45.

Is that even possible?



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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 10:37:08 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		The fix

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I would be happy with basing all the morale recovery rules to NM, so that:

The unit's morale is below NM, and it is in refit mode [and more than 10 hexes away from a supplied enemy unit].
The unit's morale is below NM, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.
The unit's morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale.
The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than NM+5. If Die (NM+5) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.


In other words dump this part of rule 9.1.1

If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode

If a units morale is below 50, and it is 10 or more hexes away from the nearest enemy unit

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3355520&mpage=1&key=�

Will my crusade to fix NM finally be over after close to 2 yrs?

Thanks morvael for the fix.

Guys start e-mailing 2by3 and anyone else on the team.

The more people that bitch the quicker this will get addressed.

I have emailed peeps and posted on Dev forums, but need your help.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/26/2013 11:07:47 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 3:58:52 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I am about to go offline for 4 days. Just wanted to ask where your German game stands in the context of these discussions. Are you just too good, so your experience must be thrown out and your techniques cannot be learned from, or have even you been slowed down with latest versions? I suppose you think that if you played both sides your Russian player would easily win?

Our schedule is terrible until the end of July with critical WitW work and everyone taking vacations (at 2by3 and Matrix) and Historicon coming up, so I would not expect any changes for at least a month. But first some consensus of what is needed must be determined.

If I follow the rule changes correctly, the following morale gain rule has been changed as noted:

If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode --> If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode and more than 10 hexes from an enemy unit

So both items Pelton suggests to elminate are if over 10 hexes from enemy. Yes, they were by design in order to allow units in the rear to quickly improve to a minimum morale level (50). I don't think we'd ever want to eliminate these rules entirely, but perhaps they could be changed to a different minimum morale level (45, or NM not to exceed 45 if you want to keep the Axis Allies down).

Michael, your idea for a change has a different impact in it does reduce the impact of some NM gains, but still allows a Soviet player that keeps units in the rear refitting to get units to 50. I'm not saying one is better, just that they are two different changes.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I'll try to take a look at this thread when I return next week and before I leave for my 25th marriage anniversary vacation.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 4:46:34 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I think all the rules should be tied to NM or NM+x, because the hardcoded 50 and 75 in the current rules except one, make it possible to exceed NM quite easily and it helps only the side with lower NM. So the Soviet NM doesn't matter that much until it exceeds 50, because all their units can achieve this value without problems. When the 10% NM rule was not working the gain was slower and it was enough for decent '41 for the Axis. I like that units can quickly return to NM at the rear, but they shouldn't be able to exceed it thanks to these rules.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 4:52:28 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I am about to go offline for 4 days. Just wanted to ask where your German game stands in the context of these discussions. Are you just too good, so your experience must be thrown out and your techniques cannot be learned from, or have even you been slowed down with latest versions? I suppose you think that if you played both sides your Russian player would easily win?

Our schedule is terrible until the end of July with critical WitW work and everyone taking vacations (at 2by3 and Matrix) and Historicon coming up, so I would not expect any changes for at least a month. But first some consensus of what is needed must be determined.

If I follow the rule changes correctly, the following morale gain rule has been changed as noted:

If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode --> If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode and more than 10 hexes from an enemy unit

So both items Pelton suggests to elminate are if over 10 hexes from enemy. Yes, they were by design in order to allow units in the rear to quickly improve to a minimum morale level (50). I don't think we'd ever want to eliminate these rules entirely, but perhaps they could be changed to a different minimum morale level (45, or NM not to exceed 45 if you want to keep the Axis Allies down).

Michael, your idea for a change has a different impact in it does reduce the impact of some NM gains, but still allows a Soviet player that keeps units in the rear refitting to get units to 50. I'm not saying one is better, just that they are two different changes.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I'll try to take a look at this thread when I return next week and before I leave for my 25th marriage anniversary vacation.


Grats on your 25th and have a great vacation.

Thanks for quick reply.

The issue is with basicly the hole SHC army being at morale 50 by turn 3. As we know all smart SHC players simply run.

As I have stated for close to 2 yrs SHC NM is 50+. SHC can be 40 in the ruleset but because of the under 50 code it is 50. and always has been. Once the morale bug was fixed this really has impacted the game in a very negative way.

Sure Mt still looks like a god, but mostly because of major screw-up on SHC side. Everyone seems to fail to read any of the dozen or so AAR's on Mt's games hehehehe

Anyways I believe your idea of lowering the hard coded # is the best way to solve the issue.

I think it should be 40-45, 43 being the # I would like to see.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 5:10:15 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		MT looks like a God because he has optimized his logistics to an incredible degree and is making it do things it ought not be able to do. The solution to this has long been obvious: force him to play with random weather. (The longer term solution, of course, is to reign in the incredibly loose logistical model, but I'm pretty sure that is indeed going to happen.) He will not do it. He keeps finding suckers willing to play the game according to his preferred rules, which astonishes me. (He has some other rather silly house rules.)

I myself would never play MT without random weather. Yet others keep walking into the lion's den with predictable results. You don't give Tiger Woods a handicap, people, he is supposed to be spotting you some. Negotiate for one, or flatly refuse to play him.

Happily, nobody else knows how to abuse the logistics quite as well. So he's a freak of nature, so to speak.

There's another alternative here besides tweaking the morale rules, btw. You could also change the retreat and routing formulas so as to allow greater variability. Widen the range in which routs occur. So that reaching the relatively low bar of 50 morale doesn't clinch things.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/26/2013 5:47:48 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 5:17:54 PM   
javats


Posts: 55
Joined: 1/21/2012
From: Flatland
Status: offline 		for my 2 cents, I think that morale has gotten confused with experience,
EXPERIENCE = how well do the troops perform: ( experience, training, leadership, communication, information;(terrain, enemy & friends) ) i.e. CV
which all takes time to learn.
MORALE = Will the troops perform i.e. pass checks to enter hex (MP)

An good example of the russian problem: in the movie "Enemy at the Gates"
The Hero and his comrades are thrown into a frontal assault against a prepared defense .
There is no surprise, no tactics, (fire support, no moving and no information) yet they pass the morale check (they did not yet know of the soviet MGs ) and initally charge.

The Soviet 41 army has no leadership, has very little training, (which is lost by 42 along with the equipment ) and bad experience (Finish Winter War) .
But every russian knows The Russian Winter and germans did not (experience and training again)

So what is National Morale, "unit morale" and "unit experience" in game terms ( the designer intend)
Questions, does a unit start with a NM and by time passing gain experience thereby increasing "unit morale" ?
Which is the problem, is russian NM starting too high or gaining too fast ?

Personal comments, just because there is time (10+ hexes back) does not mean there is training (good or bad).
One of the things that made the german army better was they were always training, and the Soviets idea of training was OJT (in combat)
It took the Soviet some time to get a minimal level of training. Processing masses is not training.
There should be no gain for soviet "unit morale" accept by contact with enemy units.
(loses equal survivors gain experience ).
also Yelling i am right does not help solve the problem.

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Post #: 15
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 9:10:18 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Joel, I think that the cap for the Soviet morale in 1941 should be 45. How that is achieved I do not know. But reducing the 'refit limit' for them to 45 in 1941 seems like the best angle. I would still allow them to attain there NM levels for victories in combat. The rate of refit morale gain might also need to be tweaked down a notch.

This has nothing to do with me. But as it has been raised I will address it. My current opponent did nothing but run from T3. So my massive territorial gains have simply been made by a very few fuelled up units. I just took what was given. I know that as a Russian player I can squeeze the life from a German v quickly. Just like some others are doing right now.

As for my HR, well mine are pretty simple and few. My opponents often have their own rules they like, which somehow get attributed to me. But I agree to them as any reasonable person would.

But back to the main issue. Its not just me complaining. There are a number of experienced players now who feel the same as me. I hope they make some comments here to add some weight.

I am pleased Joel you are still listening and hopeful a solution can be found.

Congrats on the 25 years

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 9:29:38 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		The running may have had something to do with the brand new Romanian cheese, MT. In 2 turns all 4 border fronts surrounded. (As if the Lvov opening wasn't bad enough.) But of course Soviet morale isn't the only problem in the game right now. Just the one you are lobbying to address immediately.





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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/26/2013 11:49:19 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Flavius if you have issues with Rumania start another thread. Lets try and leave this one to the problem of Soviet morale in 1941. I am happy to discuss Rumanian treachery elsewhere. However things like Rumania can be fixed with a simple HR. But the morale issue is more problematic.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 12:27:33 AM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The issue is with basicly the hole SHC army being at morale 50 by turn 3. As we know all smart SHC players simply run.


Mehring vs. M60A3TTS T3

All Soviet cav, motor, tank, infantry division morale levels

60+ 1
55+ 9
50+ 34

Total divisions: 225

Total % 50+ 19.55%

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 6/27/2013 12:28:17 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 12:33:11 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I have issues with the entire surprise turn, which are well known, and unfortunately aren't going to be fixed prior to WITE2.

But mostly I'm just trying to keep you honest here, MT and putting some context here. You were pretty disingenuous to Joel up there about the particulars of your current game.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 12:35:39 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		45 NM feels about right to me for both 1941 and 1942.The difference between a 40 and a 50 morale unit is massive.At 40 you're dealing with ants that are quite likely to rout if attacked, at 50 you're looking at a solid 3 CV unit that's unlikely to rout.45 units are kind of useful and semi-reliable, but you're not going to build the Maginot line with them.
I also think training should be limited to national morale and only one point gained per turn.
By the way, non-routing sec regiments are still a problem in this game.

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Post #: 21
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 1:42:10 AM   
smokindave34


Posts: 877
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		The cap at a morale of 45 seems about right - I think this would essentially put the Soviets back to where they were pre patch.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 3:21:59 AM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
Joined: 7/25/2010
Status: offline 		The following is the relevant section on Soviet National Morale and its evolution through the various builds:

quote:

9.1.3. Basic Levels of National Morale
The below table summarises the basic national morale level for each nation. Note that national morale can also be modified by the difficulty level Morale Level Modifier in the game option screen. (3.3.3). For Germany and the Soviet Union, the national morale level will change over time.
Country/Year Soviet Union
1941 40
1942 50
1943 50
1944 50
1945 50

v1.03 Beta 3 - February 7, 2011
Each turn there is a chance that a unit’s morale will be lowered by 1 or 2 points if its morale exceeds its national morale by 30 points or more.

v1.05.18 - September 6, 2011
Soviet National Morale has been changed to 50 in June 1941. One point is subtracted each month after this in 1941 (so it is 44 in Dec 41). In 1942 it is set to 40, with one point being added each month starting in September 1942 (so 44 in Dec 42). This continues in 1943 and 1944 until the Soviet National Morale reaches its maximum of 60 in April 1944.

v1.05.59 - January 31, 2012
National Morale of Soviets in 1942 is now 45. Starting with January 1943, the Soviet National Morale increases by 1 each month, until it reaches 60 in March 1944.
All Soviet units of size Brigade or smaller have a minimum national morale of 50.


The current version has the National Morale of 50 in June, 41 and drops one each month to 44 in Dec 41. Then it is 45 for all of 42 until it starts its one point increase to a max of 60. The bug fix that causes all of this allows the WAD which depends on a morale level of 50 - totally disregarding the National Morale level. So if the NM is less than 50, the EFFECTIVE NM is really 50 regardless of nationality because of the formula. So the formula should be changed to be limited by the National Morale level rather than 50 or change to the lesser of the two. If it is not the lesser of the two, then nations with NM > 50 will enjoy the increased recovery effects for longer and recover faster. This deserves some thought by the designer because it may fix other problems in the later parts of the game and would definitely have a large impact on WitW and other campaigns.

But we are currently debating that the Soviet NM of 50 degrading to 44 in 41 is too tough. Note that the Soviet NM in 41 was at 40 until version 1.05.18 when it became the current 50. This change occurred within the first year of release. Recalling why it was raised may be important at this time - although the morale recovery bug may have had an effect on the original decision to increase the Soviet NM. The Combat Result 1-1 increase to 2-1 was based on the Soviet NM of 40 - increasing the NM then threw that mechanism against the wall and broke it badly. The current situation has definitely shown that the Soviets do not need that boost any more to be able to counter attack successfully in 41.

But what we are doing here is trying to come up with a 'quick and dirty' fix. We will only get a single shot at this so we should examine it completely and remember how and why we got to where we currently are so we end up closer to where we wish to be. It sounds like we have the month of July to solidify what we truly want so we should spend the time wisely and not just pick another number of the air but rather give it some thought.


< Message edited by carlkay58 -- 6/27/2013 3:22:21 AM >

(in reply to smokindave34)
Post #: 23
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 5:42:44 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		This is the item that was not working for years but fixed with the last official version:

The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit).

This particular item is limited to NM, not 50. So if Soviet NM was limited to 45, AFAIK, this method of gaining morale would not take a unit over 45. On the other hand, the morale gains from being over 10 hexes from the enemy would lead to units going up to 50. Also, Soviet brigades always have NM of 50, and mountain, cavalry and airborne units get a +5 to NM.

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(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 24
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 6:15:20 AM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		I've been for a long time off this game but... Pelton, after a fashion, has been correct over all these years with respect to National Morale mechanics being broken and biasing the game towards the Soviet Union (since Germany can't really get any benefits from their designed higher level of NM).

On the other hand, I'm surprised to see arguments like "Soviet units with CV of 20" being used by experienced Axis players as relevant to this discussion.

Anybody who has played this game knows that the CV one needs to look at is the offensive (base) CV of the stack. Defensive CV is a mirage: almost always higher than it actually ends up being due to a number of factors. Engineers reducing forts before combat, bad leadership rolls of the defender leader, and of course, losses suffered by the defender during combat. In the three instances, Germany has an advantage in 1941: substantial numbers of Eng SU's that can be attached to specific units, bad or average infantry values for the vast majority of Soviet commanders, higher experience in units ground elements, entailing higher ROFs and therefore, more firepower.

So, really, what carlkay said

quote:


But what we are doing here is trying to come up with a 'quick and dirty' fix. We will only get a single shot at this so we should examine it completely and remember how and why we got to where we currently are so we end up closer to where we wish to be. It sounds like we have the month of July to solidify what we truly want so we should spend the time wisely and not just pick another number of the air but rather give it some thought.


which actually is what morvael said in the Tech Support forum

quote:


I would be happy with basing all the morale recovery rules to NM, so that:

The unit's morale is below NM, and it is in refit mode [and more than 10 hexes away from a supplied enemy unit].
The unit's morale is below NM, and it is more than 10 hexes away from the nearest enemy unit.
The unit's morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale.
The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than NM+5. If Die (NM+5) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible.


An elegant solution to WitE woes doesn't necessarily imply a massive programmer time effort, maybe it will suffice some informed discussion and a minor programmer time investment, rather than appealing to demagogic arguments.

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(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 25
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 9:54:21 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline 		Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 26
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 12:54:35 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		I don't support the often change of codes. usually people play a pbem for several months, if the codes change so often, then we have to adjust to them and change strategy in an ongoing game, that would be disturbing to most players. The question discussed here could be fixed by those players themselves, simply by setting the number at 110 or 120 for one side and then the two people are happy.

I am now doing a pbem game and fighting foward, but i didn't see the russian are so powerful at all as there is nothing they can do to combat the germans on the open ground, so defence is the only option. and the Germans have all the initiative. if they can't make the best of it, that is only themselves to be blamed. To be honest, no a general in the panzer era is willing to sit back and surrender the initiative unless he has to.

Of course, granted the two people having the same skill, then the game is very liking ending in russia victory. But if it is going to resemble a history scene, why shouldn't Russia win? Historically Russia have so many overwhelming advantages in that war.

i would vote for keeping the game resembling the history, if anybody would like a even battle, he can choose his own setting or using house rules. the game can't be even, as this was not a even war in history.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I am about to go offline for 4 days. Just wanted to ask where your German game stands in the context of these discussions. Are you just too good, so your experience must be thrown out and your techniques cannot be learned from, or have even you been slowed down with latest versions? I suppose you think that if you played both sides your Russian player would easily win?

Our schedule is terrible until the end of July with critical WitW work and everyone taking vacations (at 2by3 and Matrix) and Historicon coming up, so I would not expect any changes for at least a month. But first some consensus of what is needed must be determined.

If I follow the rule changes correctly, the following morale gain rule has been changed as noted:

If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode --> If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode and more than 10 hexes from an enemy unit

So both items Pelton suggests to elminate are if over 10 hexes from enemy. Yes, they were by design in order to allow units in the rear to quickly improve to a minimum morale level (50). I don't think we'd ever want to eliminate these rules entirely, but perhaps they could be changed to a different minimum morale level (45, or NM not to exceed 45 if you want to keep the Axis Allies down).

Michael, your idea for a change has a different impact in it does reduce the impact of some NM gains, but still allows a Soviet player that keeps units in the rear refitting to get units to 50. I'm not saying one is better, just that they are two different changes.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I'll try to take a look at this thread when I return next week and before I leave for my 25th marriage anniversary vacation.


< Message edited by mktours -- 6/27/2013 12:56:43 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 27
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 1:09:47 PM   
mktours

 

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
Status: offline 		good point
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.



(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 28
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 10:16:33 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.



First of the SHC is never going to get the upper hand in 1941 unless your playing computer or less exp player.

2nd Germany has been nerfed to death over the yrs to balance the game. So your whining is not going to help make the game better.

Unlike yourself green horn most of the guys debating this issue have been around and want the game to be balanced. WE SUPPORT GHC AND SHC, not one side.

MT is undefeated as SHC and GHC 3+ yrs running so if he posts about something being unbalanced then it probably is sonny boy.

Read some threads and learn something from the guys that have been here for a long time or you will always be a non-factor.[/b]




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Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 29
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 10:17:22 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

good point
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.





Read above post newbie, lol


_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to mktours)
Post #: 30
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