Fleet behaviour problems

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Fleet behaviour problems - 6/26/2013 11:14:39 AM

Strat_84

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/8/2011
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Apparently fleets often refuel in a middle of a fight, while there's still at least 60% of fuel left in tanks.
I've noticed this with automated fleets defending a system (defensive stance, system range), version 1.9.0.7.

It seems also NON automated fleets act at least sometimes as if they were automated. I had for example a fleet being refueled waiting for another one to attack an objective. This fleet was refueling at its home base, with system range setting. Once refueled it always moved to defend another planet several sectors away instead of waiting in the system.

No need to say it's really annoying to have to fight constantly against stupid AI decisions, I don't even understand how this kind of problems can have emerged when it was working quite well in Legends.

Post #: 1

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 6/26/2013 3:39:23 PM

Flinkebeinchen

Posts: 109
Joined: 6/18/2013
From: Germany
Status: offline

In the Options -> Empire Settings -> Fleet Attack Settings -> "First refuel when this percentage of fleet needs fuel" you can adjust this behaviour.

(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 2

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 6/26/2013 5:51:33 PM

Strat_84

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/8/2011
Status: offline

I know, but the problem isn't related to this setting.
It is set to the default value (i.e 30%), and it is supposed to mean the fleet will refuel when 30% of the fleet needs fuel (what is not clear though is what means "needs fuel" ? below 50% ? 20% ? Completely depleted ?).

Anyway, this setting doesn't explain that a fleet constantly refuels when the tanks of all its ships are already nearly full.

(in reply to Flinkebeinchen)

Post #: 3

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 6/27/2013 8:04:06 AM

Strat_84

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/8/2011
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Something else (probably linked to the "gang up" change of version 1.9.0.6).

When 2 fleets from empires engage each others I've noticed they tend to concentrate everyone on a single ship of the opposed fleet. The ships ignore everything else than this single target, even when they are a bit too far away to engage that target in a reasonable delay and there are plenty of other ennemy ships in weapon range.

That doesn't look right at all, instead of a battle between 2 fleets I see a succession of executions that do not really hurt the target fleet itself but let no chance of survival to the single ship targeted (often the leading ship, with admirals inside ...)

(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 4

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 6/30/2013 10:42:06 AM

Strat_84

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/8/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Strat_84
Apparently fleets often refuel in a middle of a fight, while there's still at least 60% of fuel left in tanks.
I've noticed this with automated fleets defending a system (defensive stance, system range), version 1.9.0.7.

Playing further I've seen this affecting the AI empires as well.

A fleet came in my system, started attacking my mining stations, I sent one of my fleet to intercept. Just when my fleet reached theirs, their ships ran away to one of their systems. When I caught these ships, they were defenceless, refueling at a planet but with fuel amounts of at least 50% remaining in tanks (I had some trace sensors on my ships).

(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 5

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 7/3/2013 10:07:19 PM

dostillevi

Posts: 222
Joined: 8/31/2012
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I want to bump this issue. I've experienced it as well.. with ships having around 90% fuel deciding to refuel for no apparent reason.

I would also like to see the second note you mentioned get more attention. Fleets should "gang up" on a target, but each ship should determine whether its weapons are in range of a target independently of this. If the gang up target is in range, any weapon able to hit it should be firing at it. Other weapons that aren't in range should fire at the closest enemy ship (or continue firing at the last targeted ship if it is in range).

The huge problem with the current setting isn't the execution style combat, but rather that fleets can get fixated on ships they have trouble catching up to and then get slaughtered by the rest of the enemy fleet without firing a single shot in return.

(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 6

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 7/12/2013 1:03:44 AM

Dracus

Posts: 162
Joined: 11/29/2011
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combat has always been this way, the fleet acts like a single unit and they all attack one ship and it is a pian to get them to break off that target to attack another one. I want my ships to break off from a target once they have beaten it to the point where it cant fight, once they have crippled the entire enemy fleet then they could go back and mop up all the broken hulls. Sometimes you can manage to convince a few to attack another target.

(in reply to dostillevi)

Post #: 7

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 7/12/2013 11:33:45 AM

Strat_84

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Joined: 12/8/2011
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Hum no, I would swear it hasn't always been like that.

In Legend I wasn't stroke by this kind of behaviour, I remember fleet to fleet battles where several ships were engaged at the same time, attacked ships didn't get shot without shooting back, and battles against Shakturi fleets resulted in some success despite being backward.

Now it's nearly impossible to compete with them, I actually encountered exactly what dostillevi described: my entire fleet hunting one single ship that was out of reach, much faster, and not firering a single shot while being murdered by the rest of the Shakturi fleet (which was in firering range).
This ruined my game so much that I stopped playing.

And I'm convinced that the main problem is the way AI was changed for "ganging up". An entire fleet concentrating on a single ship is fine and useful against pirates in early game, but only if there's one single ship to engage. Since that command is blindly applied in situations where it is not relevant (i.e. mid/late game against large fleets) it does more harm than good.

< Message edited by Strat_84 -- 7/12/2013 11:35:53 AM >

(in reply to Dracus)

Post #: 8

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 7/29/2013 9:30:18 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Are you guys seeing this with 1.9.0.8 or earlier versions?

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 9

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 7/29/2013 11:36:00 PM

Strat_84

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/8/2011
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For the fleet concentrating too much problem, 1.9.0.7 and 1.9.0.8. I didn't play version 1.9.0.6, and I had very few fleet to fleet battles in previous versions, I don't remember them clearly enough.
BTW hyperdeny has some problems linked to that simple AI behaviour, it switches on when the fleet picks up its single target but it often briefly switches off when that target is killed and the fleet picks up another victim.

For the refuelling problem, 1.9.0.7 and 1.9.0.8, it is unsure if I spotted that before. But I remember an ennemy fleet running away just after I had engaged it with another fleet in version 1.9.0.5 or 1.9.0.4, that was the first time I encountered such behaviour. And thinking about it, it looks a similar situation to that one, except I didn't follow it so I don't know if it was refuelling:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Strat_84
Playing further I've seen this affecting the AI empires as well.

A fleet came in my system, started attacking my mining stations, I sent one of my fleet to intercept. Just when my fleet reached theirs, their ships ran away to one of their systems. When I caught these ships, they were defenceless, refueling at a planet but with fuel amounts of at least 50% remaining in tanks (I had some trace sensors on my ships).

I wonder if the problem doesn't come from fleets executing a "prepare and attack" command instead of a simple "attack".

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 10

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 7/30/2013 2:18:05 AM

btd64

Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline

Have not seen this behavior in 1.9.0.8, but i typically will tell my ships who to attack anyway. even though they start to attack them selves. now that i think of it, when i direct the attack, some ships need to be told to attack the nearest target.
Cheers

(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 11

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 8/1/2013 3:58:47 AM

elliotg

Posts: 3597
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline

Hi all

Thanks for your reports on these issues. Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to identify and fix any of these without savegames.

Can you please upload savegames that reliably demonstrate these problems?

Thanks
Elliot

(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 12

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 8/1/2013 12:18:52 PM

Strat_84

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/8/2011
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Being uploaded on your FTP:

1�)Strat_84-refuelling problem-August 1.zip. Contains 2 saves:
- Fleet refuelling in combat.dwg -> shows several ships of the Ancient fleet refuelling in the middle of a fight while tanks almost full
- Terran Empire 2158-06-07_refuel.dwg -> Can be used as a basis to "study" the issue. 3 fleets are automated, defend system stance (4th fleet, 5th fleet, Ancient fleet). You just need to let the game run long enough and you'll see all of them refuelling at a moment or another while their tanks are already almost full (and on the top of that it often happens when you would need them to spank a pirate in the system they're defending)

2�)Strat_84-non_automated_fleet_acting_on_its_own-August 1.dwg
The Guardian fleet in waiting in the system on screen (kharun). It is not automated, defend stance, engage system targets, with "nearby systems" range, and is based at Utopia.
Just let the game run (one year, maybe less, maybe more) and you'll see it moving to Utopia without being given any order, and its home base changing to Pismimbin 3 space port.
That's a blatant exemple of fleet in manual mode acting on its own.

3�)Strat_84-fleet_to_fleet_battle-August 1.dwg
A Shakturi fleet is on attack vector on the 4th fleet, battle imminent. You should normaly see the most caricatural problems in fleet to fleet battles (almost the entire fleet concentrating on one single ship, not shooting anything else than this target, and also ships pursuing that target when out of reach and not shooting back while the rest of the enemy fleet pick them up one by one)

(in reply to elliotg)

Post #: 13

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 8/2/2013 11:32:44 AM

elliotg

Posts: 3597
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline

Thanks for those savegames, they were very helpful in tracking down these issues

quote:

ORIGINAL: Strat_84
1�)Strat_84-refuelling problem-August 1.zip. Contains 2 saves:
- Fleet refuelling in combat.dwg -> shows several ships of the Ancient fleet refuelling in the middle of a fight while tanks almost full
- Terran Empire 2158-06-07_refuel.dwg -> Can be used as a basis to "study" the issue. 3 fleets are automated, defend system stance (4th fleet, 5th fleet, Ancient fleet). You just need to let the game run long enough and you'll see all of them refuelling at a moment or another while their tanks are already almost full (and on the top of that it often happens when you would need them to spank a pirate in the system they're defending)

Idle auto-controlled fleets in the same system as a refuelling point are by design more aggressive at keeping their fuel levels high. The reason for this is to help them to be ready to respond to a distant contingency. However I have backed this off a bit, so that they are not quite so aggressive at keeping themselves topped up.

quote:

2�)Strat_84-non_automated_fleet_acting_on_its_own-August 1.dwg
The Guardian fleet in waiting in the system on screen (kharun). It is not automated, defend stance, engage system targets, with "nearby systems" range, and is based at Utopia.
Just let the game run (one year, maybe less, maybe more) and you'll see it moving to Utopia without being given any order, and its home base changing to Pismimbin 3 space port.
That's a blatant exemple of fleet in manual mode acting on its own.

This savegame helped me to track down a couple of rare cases where manually controlled fleets were auto-responding to intercept incoming enemy fleets and planet destroyers. I have changed this behavior so that now only auto-controlled fleets will respond in this manner.

quote:

3�)Strat_84-fleet_to_fleet_battle-August 1.dwg
A Shakturi fleet is on attack vector on the 4th fleet, battle imminent. You should normaly see the most caricatural problems in fleet to fleet battles (almost the entire fleet concentrating on one single ship, not shooting anything else than this target, and also ships pursuing that target when out of reach and not shooting back while the rest of the enemy fleet pick them up one by one)

Using these savegames I was able to add some new functionality for military ships:
- groups of military ships (e.g. fleets) now much better at balancing targetting of enemy threats so that they do not all attack a single enemy. However they will still engage enemies en masse when no other targets nearby (i.e. will still gang up on a target when no other targets nearby)
- military ships are now much better at firing at nearby enemies even when pursuing other targets

These two new changes should resolve the issues you were encountering here. In my retesting of this savegame with these changes in place, your fleet was now much better at defending against the Shakturi fleet.

All of the above changes are in the next update, which will be available soon.

Thanks
Elliot

(in reply to Strat_84)

Post #: 14

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 8/2/2013 11:42:32 AM

hewwo

Posts: 276
Joined: 4/22/2010
Status: offline

Yes, these issues were not very common but if they occurred they were very frustrating! If I run into any reproducible fleet issues after the next patch I will definitely put up a save game. Thanks Elliot!

(in reply to elliotg)

Post #: 15

RE: Fleet behaviour problems - 8/2/2013 1:38:09 PM

Strat_84

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/8/2011
Status: offline

Thanks, I'm eager to play again with this !

(in reply to elliotg)

Post #: 16