RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/27/2013 11:12:56 PM

Michael T

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quote:

On the other hand, I'm surprised to see arguments like "Soviet units with CV of 20" being used by experienced Axis players as relevant to this discussion

Its relevant because 2 X CV 20 plus units are immune to a hasty. A deliberate is required, possibly by more than one stack. Previously the Soviet might manage a handfull of such stacks in any given operational area. But now we see stacks like this all over the place. And if the Axis manages to get thru he then faces a horde of CV 3 plus ID attacking and driving him back with unsustainable losses in AFV, Art etc.

If I had the time I would dearly love to take apart some of these guys with opinions that everything is sweet.

Ketza, Bobo, DV and others it would be benificial if you would offer your views. Otherwise we might end up with no fix and that will be bad for the game.

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Post #: 31

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 12:24:05 AM

Michael T

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I also think that lowering Soviet morale to an effective 45 would mean we would see players being more selective with reserves. As putting 45 morale units in reserve is frought with danger.

This would be a good thing and remove, at least in my case, the need for HR about reserves.

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Post #: 32

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 12:59:13 AM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

On the other hand, I'm surprised to see arguments like "Soviet units with CV of 20" being used by experienced Axis players as relevant to this discussion

Its relevant because 2 X CV 20 plus units are immune to a hasty. A deliberate is required, possibly by more than one stack.

"Immune" meaning low odds of success, indeed. And using deliberate attacks precludes from achieving those massive encirclements. I can understand that for German players, uncertainty like that (very much like Random weather) can become quite a problem in order to optimize operations and even the odds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Previously the Soviet might manage a handfull of such stacks in any given operational area. But now we see stacks like this all over the place.

And if the Axis manages to get thru he then faces a horde of CV 3 plus ID attacking and driving him back with unsustainable losses in AFV, Art etc.

Okay Michael, now this is an argument. CV 3 Soviet RD should be very rare, perhaps no more than 10% or 15% of the whole force. CV 4+ RD's should be precious as pigs of platinum.

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Post #: 33

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 2:09:37 AM

Michael T

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BG if you update your game, load the CG, on T1 set all the rear area Stavka ID to refit. Click thru to turn 4. Check em out. Most will be close to 50 morale and CV 3, some CV 4, nearly all at least CV 2.5. If these units are placed in woods/swamps with a fort of 1 or 2 stacked 2 or 3 high they are almost unmovable except via very big attacks. And entire Pz Corp can be dislodged when they counter attack in numbers.

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Post #: 34

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 5:51:10 AM

Gizuria

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I'd just like to say that there are people who play this game solely against an AI opponent and so a buff to the Soviet AI side is welcome. Just how many of us there are compared to the H2H players who dominate this group I have no idea. Obviously, you H2H guys are very vocal about what you'd like to see changed in the game to balance the game for your contests. While we solo players are generally a quiet bunch and so don't have much 'say'.

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 35

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 6:41:24 AM

mktours

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you are poor manner, as what you did in your game against MT. stay away from me, my comment wasn't going towards you, and you are no welcomed by me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

good point

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

Read above post newbie, lol

< Message edited by mktours -- 6/28/2013 6:45:05 AM >

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 36

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 6:43:22 AM

mktours

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repeated post

< Message edited by mktours -- 6/28/2013 6:44:39 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 8:05:57 AM

821Bobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fascist Dog

I'd just like to say that there are people who play this game solely against an AI opponent and so a buff to the Soviet AI side is welcome. Just how many of us there are compared to the H2H players who dominate this group I have no idea. Obviously, you H2H guys are very vocal about what you'd like to see changed in the game to balance the game for your contests. While we solo players are generally a quiet bunch and so don't have much 'say'.

Giving advantage to the opponent is not buff for the AI. AI is the same. When you have no problems in crushing AI, why you don't try multiplayer? It's much more fun. Or you can simply adjust the settings to whatever suits you. AI will never protest. However finding opponent who will agree with boosting Axis morale/logistic and lowering Soviet won't be that easy.

btw. its not our fault that "solo players are generally a quiet bunch"

(in reply to Gizuria)

Post #: 38

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 8:17:16 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

First of the SHC is never going to get the upper hand in 1941 unless your playing computer or less exp player.

2nd Germany has been nerfed to death over the yrs to balance the game. So your whining is not going to help make the game better.

Unlike yourself green horn most of the guys debating this issue have been around and want the game to be balanced. WE SUPPORT GHC AND SHC, not one side.

MT is undefeated as SHC and GHC 3+ yrs running so if he posts about something being unbalanced then it probably is sonny boy.

Read some threads and learn something from the guys that have been here for a long time or you will always be a non-factor.[/

Here's a couple of suggestions. First, anyone who plays the game has a valid opinion (even if you personally disagree with them) and you setting yourself as some sort of umpire deciding who can and cannot comment helps very little. Second, if you want people to listen to you, perchance keep your responses polite?

For what its worth, what is an ideal set of dynamics for 1941 - assuming players of relatively balanced skill.

June-July should be utter chaos for the Red Army, any front line will evaporate if it is the focus of a sustained German attack. August-September, the Soviets should be able to conduct limited counterstrokes but the reality is it should be overmatched by the tempo at which the Germans can conduct the war. By October-November, slowly, apart from where the Germans have concentrated (or where the front long fell apart) the Soviet defense should have some robustness, even if counterstrokes are still more characterised by optimism rather than reality.

So what some German players want for the whole of 1941 up to blizzard in reality only occured in June-July.

Now given we have a turn 1 that allows the Germans to do too much and a model of Soviet decision making that removes the reason for the secondary disasters that allowed their offensive to regain speed (in some sectors) in late summer, any such balance is exceptionally hard to achieve.

But the simple reality is that as 1941 went on, the German offensive increasingly narrowed so they could concentrate to achieve the sort of power needed to pierce the slowly deepening Soviet defense.

Now how best to construct that lot in the context of this game I'm not sure. It may well be that a solution that works is lower Soviet NM etc but I'd also suggest looking at some of the existing options in terms of default settings - as suggested earlier in this thread.

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Post #: 39

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 9:51:35 AM

821Bobo

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As has been stated by Pelton and others, the problem is this part of rules

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

--> If a units morale is below 50, and is in refit mode and more than 10 hexes from an enemy unit

Actually I would not remove this completly, just make some adjustment. Like they should be really in the rear. Not only 10 hexes, but 50.
As I see it, getting NM over national limit can be considered as some sort of training. It should be possible, but far away from the front and with gain 1-2 points per week at best.
Sitting in 2nd defensive line/huge carpet or whatever few hexes behind the front in reserve status can not be considered as training at all.
And yes they doesn't have to be in refit mode. Me and others have observed that Rumanians are getting to 50 without being in refit mode. So the refit part of the rule is not working anyway.

Regarding lowering Soviet NM in 1941 to 45 I am not sure. Rifle division with 45 morale and close to 100 TOE will still have 2-3 CV. This is enough for the standard Soviet en masse counterattacks and decent defence values. Probably good enough when "equal" players play.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 40

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 10:08:35 AM

BletchleyGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
BG if you update your game, load the CG, on T1 set all the rear area Stavka ID to refit. Click thru to turn 4. Check em out. Most will be close to 50 morale and CV 3, some CV 4, nearly all at least CV 2.5.

Just like that? That's very bad

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Post #: 41

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 11:08:17 AM

smokindave34

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BG - I understand your point on the defensive CV however my point is that the higher morale Soviet units so early in the game really disrupt the operational tempo of the axis. The hasty attacks that are used by the axis to setup breakthroughs are rare even as early as turn 3. Two 50 morale Soviet units in light woods are going to be very difficult for the axis to defeat in a hasty attack.

< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 6/28/2013 11:11:33 AM >

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Post #: 42

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 12:13:03 PM

carlkay58

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Historically the Battle of Smolensk starts on game turn 3 and the Axis were stopped in place for 5 turns starting on game turn 5. AGN had no real problems until it got closer to Leningrad and then had some real problems. Although the new map area and supply rules in WitE 2.0 will change that in favor of the Soviets more than the morale change. And AGS was only freed up around game turn 12 to 14 with the Kiev pocket and aid from AGC. When mud hit the line went from Leningrad to Smolensk to the Dnepr Bend. All of the other gains (and they were massive in AGC and AGS) came after the mud. Our current games usually see the Axis sitting pretty much still after the mud with only limited snow offensives. (Yes there are some notable exceptions.)

Bobo is right in concentrating us back to the "If morale is < 50 and > 10 hexes from enemy" rule. This should change regardless of what the NM level is.

Smokindave34 - I guess I am a pretty bad Axis player because I set up my breakthroughs with Deliberate Attacks across a front of about three or four hexes. I then have further infantry advance and hit the secondary line (if possible) with some more DAs and THEN I send through the panzers. But then most of my Axis experience has come post 1.05 against humans and I have needed to do that in order to breakthrough.

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Post #: 43

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 12:48:20 PM

Gabriel B.

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If your idea of balance is to make the soviets units weaker than the axis alies go ahead , but it would not be a game i would longer want to play .

The hungarian units end up with morale around 60 and CV=4 by the summer of 1942 without any fighting whatsoever.
19th and 20th romanian infanterie as well.

Imho (AS A GREEN HORN) it is better to push german morale higher than to dumb the soviets down to the point that are more britle the axis minors.

BTW since you started with sonny boy mind if I call you granpa ?

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 44

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 12:55:35 PM

mmarquo

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Per Pelton: "First of the SHC is never going to get the upper hand in 1941 unless your playing computer or less exp player"

An experienced Axis player can "feel" when the Soviets are getting the upper hand in 1941, and you know it. And they often do. Even if the map looks like a fantastic mess, an experienced Axis player knows that the weltuntergang starts in 41....

Marquo

(in reply to Gabriel B.)

Post #: 45

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 1:19:43 PM

SigUp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

If your idea of balance is to make the soviets units weaker than the axis alies go ahead , but it would not be a game i would longer want to play .

The hungarian units end up with morale around 60 and CV=4 by the summer of 1942 without any fighting whatsoever.
19th and 20th romanian infanterie as well.

Imho (AS A GREEN HORN) it is better to push german morale higher than to dumb the soviets down to the point that are more britle the axis minors.

BTW since you started with sonny boy mind if I call you granpa ?

This actually supports the case of a change to tying the morale raises to national morale instead of 50. Rumanian NM is 35 and Hungarian 40.

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Post #: 46

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 2:55:36 PM

swkuh

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The code seems to have unfortunate knots as discussed, but would adjusting the appropriate game factor for morale be useful?

Do it vs. AI all the time.

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Post #: 47

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 6:43:52 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

you are poor manner, as what you did in your game against MT. stay away from me, my comment wasn't going towards you, and you are no welcomed by me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

good point

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Even at 50 morale a soviet unit in 1941 is at best equal to a romanian unit .

It must be said that the soviet player is allways going to get the upper hand in 1941.

-He is not constain by political interference (he can give ground if he wants to).
- The manpower, time and weather is on his side .

Imho there are two options :

If you are loking for realism play the AI .
If you are loking for a challenge , stop complaining that the other guy does not do the mistakes the soviets historicly did.

Read above post newbie, lol

Careful, or he'll pull out a source that contradicts his claims......

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Post #: 48

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 10:25:32 PM

STEF78

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I'm not as experienced as much of the players here. I have played 5 GC H versus H. 4 as GC, 1 as SHC.

I "feel" that month after month, update after update, the game has been rebalanced in favor of the soviet side in 1941. With equal level player it's now impossible to take Moscow or even approach from the city in 1941. But a good GHC will easily win against a low experienced SHC.

Following the advices of Pelton, I'm convinced that morale is the key of this game. So we should be very careful while modifying it. Adjusting the SHC NM from 7 points (from 50 to 43 seems too much).

We should also keep in mind that the new morale rule gives a big bonus to the GHC in 1942.

And above all, I love this game!

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 49

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 11:12:08 PM

rmonical

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Can the problem be validated in the Road to Smolensk scenario?

Can Soviet 1941 Morale easily be made a scenario parameter?

I am concerned about changes in favor of the Axis in 41 because of: 1) Lvov opening and 2) HQBU. This is balanced by my complete loathing for the first winter rules and all of the post '41 nerfs the Axis suffer.

I am getting much better using HQBU and would offer to validate the problem with MT, but I am in the middle of job and location change.

(in reply to STEF78)

Post #: 50

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 11:23:24 PM

smokindave34

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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Smokindave34 - I guess I am a pretty bad Axis player because I set up my breakthroughs with Deliberate Attacks across a front of about three or four hexes. I then have further infantry advance and hit the secondary line (if possible) with some more DAs and THEN I send through the panzers. But then most of my Axis experience has come post 1.05 against humans and I have needed to do that in order to breakthrough.

Carklay58 - I'm not saying anyone is a good or bad axis player although I may be proving in my game versus Sapper that I'm not a very good one! Of course all axis players use infantry and deliberate attacks to setup breakthroughs - what I was trying to say was that on turns 3 and 4 I'm used to being able to push most Soviet divisions back with hasty attacks but now need to use deliberate attacks at that early stage of the game and this really slows down the tempo of the axis advance.

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Post #: 51

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/28/2013 11:56:25 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

If your idea of balance is to make the soviets units weaker than the axis alies go ahead , but it would not be a game i would longer want to play .

The hungarian units end up with morale around 60 and CV=4 by the summer of 1942 without any fighting whatsoever.
19th and 20th romanian infanterie as well.

Imho (AS A GREEN HORN) it is better to push german morale higher than to dumb the soviets down to the point that are more britle the axis minors.

BTW since you started with sonny boy mind if I call you granpa ?

I be 50 in July, but not a grampa yet.

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Post #: 52

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 12:00:18 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Can the problem be validated in the Road to Smolensk scenario?

Can Soviet 1941 Morale easily be made a scenario parameter?

I am concerned about changes in favor of the Axis in 41 because of: 1) Lvov opening and 2) HQBU. This is balanced by my complete loathing for the first winter rules and all of the post '41 nerfs the Axis suffer.

I am getting much better using HQBU and would offer to validate the problem with MT, but I am in the middle of job and location change.

As one can see in the results of Bomazz and Sappers loses under the new rules its very very hard to win or draw as Germany now.

Even MT can't take Moscow now vs a good SHC player. The logistics now really does have a leash.

Game is very balanced over all. -5 to the hard coded morale would hurt both sides not just one.

GHC players will still be unable to take Moscow because of the logistics leash

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Post #: 53

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 12:17:48 AM

rmonical

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quote:

Even MT can't take Moscow now vs a good SHC player.

I'm not convinced this is a bad thing. My question is can the German achieve historical results against a good Soviet player?

< Message edited by rmonical -- 6/29/2013 12:18:35 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 12:24:39 AM

rmonical

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I do agree that reserve activation in '41 is over the top. This is because I believe the Soviet leader ratings should be nerfed in the summer/autumn of '41 because of the purges. This would reflect the immaturity of the senior staff corps.

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Post #: 55

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 8:09:02 AM

Don77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don77

G'day

I'd agree with Michael T - I am playing another CG and have found that the Sov units are now sufficiently strong that the Ge offensive requires more concentration at the main effort, and more economy of force elsewhere. In our game, it is T13 I have ground to a halt 4 hexes short of Leningrad, I am stalled in front of Smolensk, and and struggling to get to Voronezh or Rostov. The corollary is that Sov units routinely now make successful counter attacks. I have been threatened many times with counter-pockets and in fact I may be faced with a war winning/losing action shortly.

All up, the operational level feels right, ie the Ge are slowing down at this operational depth, but I fear the tactics give too much power to the Sovs to make key tactical victories?

Appreciate anyone else's thoughts?

Don.

An example of this issue is my recent game as Ge - hex 85,27, light woods, Sep 41 - attachments are the two battle reports. I conducted TWO deliberate attacks, two Pzr Korps, totalling SIX panzer/motorised divisions, plus corps support units. Against 3 soviet rifle divs, unfortified. Both attacks failed. The modified Sov Strength per division - in many cases it is higher than the Ge Pzr Divs. the Sov's are achieving successful divisional level attacks and are actually able to conduct operational counter attacks. And in our game, the Sovs in Sep 41 have some 12 plus Guards divisions. This is a symptom of the boost to Soviet morale, which means Sep 1941 Sov Rifle Divs are as powerful as Ge ones.

Don

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Don77 -- 6/29/2013 8:27:21 AM >

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Post #: 56

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 8:16:01 AM

Don77

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And the second attack

Again, the operational level seems sorta OK, but the tactics (relative combat results) seems to let the game down? Appreciate anyone else's thoughts?

Don

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Don77 -- 6/29/2013 8:34:36 AM >

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Post #: 57

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 9:45:16 AM

janh

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Don77, not sure your example is a good one to take into consideration for this discussion. I see at least level 1 forts, and your units have been quite fatigued for the first assault, and severely fatigued on the 2nd. I'd guess the Soviets had been sitting there, fresh and rested? Then you assault primarily with Panzers through a heavily wooded terrain, against infantry. Not so good. The 41 Panzer ToE lack infantry, and in this terrain the latter is the key. The Motorized Infantry Division is better suited, but I'd have tried to pick more infantry here.

Worse of all, you really got a very poor command modifier here, while the Soviets managed to get everything under a single commanding HQ. What did you do with XXXXI Panzerkorps? That modifier is likely the key here. Other than that I see three infantry divisions past the initial chaos of July and August, which in good defensive terrain and with slight preparations, manage to stop two poorly coordinated attacks, which due to lack of infantry and fatigue, get stuck. It is late September, and if you ask me, this is probably about how it could look if Panzergruppe IV grinds to a halt in the poor terrain and reorganizing resistance in front of Leningrad. Unless this is a common phenomenon all across the map, that happens with the vast majority of Soviet infantry and in clear terrain, I think this one battle is quite ok.

(in reply to Don77)

Post #: 58

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 10:24:19 AM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78
We should also keep in mind that the new morale rule gives a big bonus to the GHC in 1942.

It does, I updated during a mid 42 game and noticed how much more I can now expect from the Axis minors. The morale issue is beneficial mainly for Axis past 42, so the largest time of a GC it balances the game in favor of the German side I'd expect.

Yet in 41 I can see how it can reduce op-tempo and how it can make the game a greater challenge for the German player. In my next game I assume I can no longer almost blindly rely on Hasty Attacks and stick my Panzer-heads out too far without serious counter-stroke, so I hope against AI at least, but advance slower and more carefully with greater caution (and so without needing to disbalance the morale difficulty setting as much anymore). The focus shifts from hex-counting and fuel logistics optimization more towards fighting with this patch.

If you are used to the latter way of gaining vast areas and making huge pockets easily for a quick win in 41 or 42, I can see how you dislike this reducing in speed and increased demand for caution. If you are all for the long run, I think you'll fare better with the fixed rule.

Though I was initially inclined to agree with the request to link the morale gaining instead of a fixed 50 threshold to NM, following this discussion for a while, as well as the MichaelT vs Kamil and SmokingDave's AAR, I ain't quite sure anymore. If there were plans to increase Soviet reinforcements to historical levels, it sure would be necessary.
But there ain't, and there are very few games and experience with the new rule so far. SmokingDave's game looks actually (turn 10) quite ok for Axis, though I do not understand why he stopped brute forcing his way to Leningrad. Michael, in contrast, appears to be still rocking with concentrated infantry power through level 2 and 3 forts (in turns around 14-16) and is bullying his way through the best fortifications and units Kamil has concentrated as if the 50 moral fix never occurred.

So at least from those two games, I'd say one has benefited in its suspense of disbelief with this fix, the other is still showing what amazing progress the logistics engine allows if squeezed by a player focusing and optimizing every detail like Michael. Of course both is only my personal opinion where the "average"/"normal" should be, just as others may think Axis should be able to go faster and easier, or even with heavier, closer to historical 41 losses. So I am more with posts 39 (Loki100) or 43 (Carlkay).

Both sides may need to adapt their game to the new fix. I'd hope that this now induces the Soviet to fight more forward in 41 despite hindsight, and violating basic military logic (poor defensive terrain etc). And I'd hope this will lead to less transfers of forces from the south to LG and Moscow as the units there should be able to hold up a little better on their own, i.e. consequently to more or, at all, some fighting south.

As primarily Axis player 2/3 of the time, my gripe remains with other things, so many, confusing and interacting things that hopefully will change by WitE2, like resilience of pocketed units, routing vs combat losses, reserve activation, reaction moves, mixing AP for C&C changes and unit building, the lose logistic chain...

However, the one thing that surprises me most that Axis players still do not focus on the most evident rule with the perhaps biggest negative impact that can and does give hugely unhistorical results: The blizzard rules. Apparently either they are happy because with sufficiently successful Barbarossa the Soviets are too trashed to encircle many German divisions as back in BigAnoraks time, or the retreating strategy for Axis during December and January to surrender comparably worthless and poorly defensible terrain are now fully accepted unlike the Soviet summer move for the same reasons. With the new morale 50 fix, the Axis will have a slower op-tempo as long asked for, and Soviet losses may, or probably will be at least some lower. Now why not largely defuse these harsh blizzard penalties?

< Message edited by janh -- 6/29/2013 10:59:54 AM >

(in reply to janh)

Post #: 59

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 6/29/2013 10:32:03 AM

Don77

Posts: 94
Joined: 5/29/2011
Status: offline

Good points Janh,

Good analysis and logic. I can only say that perhaps my example was poor, but I would still contend that Sov strength (driven by morale?) is too high for 41. At this rate, the Sov's won't need Red Army 2.0 (to quote Flav et al) to beat the Ge back and well in advance of 1945.

Don

(in reply to janh)

Post #: 60