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How do you play this over the long haul i.e. poor repair rates

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> How do you play this over the long haul i.e. poor repair rates Page: [1]
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How do you play this over the long haul i.e. poor repai... - 1/10/2003 11:29:30 AM   
lupi

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 8/20/2001
Status: offline 		Just completed 2 months of the campaign as US. I haven't lost a single surface combatant over PC size. Yet the problem is I have virtually no navy to use. Every single bomb hit gives me 15-25 system damage which reduces its capabilities such that off to Pearl it goes.

Even tried sending some with mid-teen damage levels to brisbane with the better rated port, still no luck as repair is still at a slugs pace.
Initial 2 carriers received sent back and 2 replacement carriers sent back, a single new replacement due in a couple of days.

Been able to win the war in pilot/airplane attrition but without naval vessels to push the issue it is of little consequence.:(
Post #: 1
Re: How do you play this over the long haul i.e. poor r... - 1/10/2003 11:40:46 AM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by lupi
[B]Just completed 2 months of the campaign as US. I haven't lost a single surface combatant over PC size. Yet the problem is I have virtually no navy to use. Every single bomb hit gives me 15-25 system damage which reduces its capabilities such that off to Pearl it goes.

Even tried sending some with mid-teen damage levels to brisbane with the better rated port, still no luck as repair is still at a slugs pace.
Initial 2 carriers received sent back and 2 replacement carriers sent back, a single new replacement due in a couple of days.

Been able to win the war in pilot/airplane attrition but without naval vessels to push the issue it is of little consequence.:( [/B][/QUOTE]

Well if youre just in the first 2 months as the US, then you have a loooooong way to go.

Patients is the key to getting the tools you need to do the job as the US. Right now your only job is to minimize losses while delicately balancing the loss of bases with giving the japanese the occasional bloody nose...

Reiryc

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Post #: 2
- 1/10/2003 11:45:29 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		My advice is to send back all the crap CINCPAC sends you. That increases your chance of getting better stuff. I especially get rid of those CVEs with no air groups (like the Long Island), AVs (saving one or two for duty providing air support points for a forward seaplane base), SCs (except for a dozen or so to keep busy training up to become effective at ASW), and larger ships with a high victory point value that I can't put to use (old BBs early in the campaign, for example). I try to stay pretty austere except in transport types, carriers, cruisers, and destroyers. You will, of course, want to send a lot of these back eventually, too, for AA upgrades, which are vitally important. While they are in refit, their VP value helps "encourage" release of additional ships to you. Of course, you wind up with a lot of garbage you have to send back right away, but that's the way it is in UV...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 3
- 1/10/2003 9:50:51 PM   
Black Cat

 

Posts: 615
Joined: 7/4/2002
Status: offline 		All of the above, but the system repair rates at major ports is still, as folks have been saying from the beginning, far to slow to non-existenant.

Combined with the still too fast system damage while out of Port and you need to measure your Operational tempo.

These are on my ( unofficial ) the " most often requested to fix" posts list IMO, but I think the major changes to UV are over.

Hopefully they, with several other issues, will be rethought in WITP.

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 4
Proof? - 1/11/2003 1:10:35 AM   
WW2'er

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 4/20/2000
From: East Dundee, IL, USA
Status: offline 		Has anyone showed proof, like harbor manifests or repair logs, that show that the UV repair rate is indeed too slow? Maybe they have and I have missed the posts, but everywhere else, folks quote websites, veterans, or books that back up their position.

Personally, I don't know if the repair rate is realistic or not, but it seems like it is to me. I also think it has a great effect on the game. It makes the battles that much more tension-filled and nervewracking because those ships DO mean so much to your future campaign plans! You do everything you can to protect them so they don't get those one or two bomb hits and sit in port or go back to Pearl. UV tries to simulate the real world battles, not a shoot'em up war game. Why would I care if a few destroyers, cruisers or CV got damaged if I knew they would be back better than ever in two to three months? That's why the game rewards patience and excellent planning and preparation. (Especially from the Allied side)

_____________________________

WW2'er

"That [state] which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." — Thucydides, 'The Peloponnesian Wars'

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 5
- 1/11/2003 1:57:08 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		I don't know, but if a size 9 port is not going to repair the bigger ships of at least a point a day, it raises the question of why bothering to increase any ports past size 3 to deal with the simple floatation and fire damage.

I understand the logic of forcing your hand at being extremely careful with your naval assets, but having parked my CV's with no battle damage at all (just 3% and 5% SYS wear and tear) while waiting for my F4F-4's to show up in high enough numbers to upgrade the squadrons, day after day after day they sit there, waiting for that single part to be shipped in to fix that 1% :(

The smaller ships seem to repair quite nicely, but the capital ships rust quicker then they repair it seems :eek:

It would be nice if the ports would at least deal with < 10% damage at a decent rate, because currently, the SYS damage one gets from a shakedown cruise is more then a size 9 port seems to be able to repair, which is a tad tough to deal with ;)

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 6
- 1/11/2003 2:11:23 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag

The smaller ships seem to repair quite nicely, but the capital ships rust quicker then they repair it seems :eek:

It would be nice if the ports would at least deal with < 10% damage at a decent rate, because currently, the SYS damage one gets from a shakedown cruise is more then a size 9 port seems to be able to repair, which is a tad tough to deal with ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with this!
Systems damage below 20% should be repaired at a somehow fixed rate at a large port.
This represents rather minor damage and wouldn't have resulted in a dispatch back to Pearl!

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 7
- 1/11/2003 2:49:32 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Can't say that my campaign has been going on that long (PBEM w/ Knavey, Scen19, 2 day turns, currently end of June '42).

90% of my ships are usually on some type of mission(yes, really 90%, if you're just sitting in port with no mission, I don't need you, so you get sent back) Usually it's a convoy, or escorting a convoy. But I probably have no more than 15 ships in port at any one time (excluding the ones actually doing something useful in port, like (un)loading men or supplies). Keeping your ships at sea, does indeed rack up sys damage, but it seems manageble for me thus far.

1. I don't bat an eye at system damage under 10. These are what I consider my "battle ready" TFs. Sys Dmg happens fast enough that if I grounded everybody with Sys Dmg < 4, I'd have no fleet :^). But seriously, Sys Dmg from 4 - 10, is pretty much the same thing. You lose what? one, maybe 2 kts off your top speed? Maybe (just theorizing here), a MINOR degradation to fire-control? (*shrug*). Might not even affect firecontrol, or anything but your speed. With 1 Sys Dmg, you WILL lose 1 knot of max speed. So what's the big deal with losing the 2nd knot? If you're being chased by 4 CAs, then you worry about those 2 kts, but otherwise, if you just have the mindset that the max speed of your AKs is 10kts instead of 12kts, it's alot less stressful. The job of these "battle ready" TFs is to shield the convoys and/or perform whatever aggressive type mission they may be assigned.

2. From 10 - 15 Sys Damage. Time to rotate the ship into secondary duties like convoy escort. They don't go into one of the battle ready TFs, because they'll probably slow it down too much, and aren't up to getting a bloody nose in an engagment anyways. A destroyer with all his DCs intact, but with 14 Sys Dmg, is STILL gonna gonna make 25 kts, which is still alot faster than the convoy he is a part of (at 10 - 12 kts). But he's still contributing his DCs and AAA for it's defense. If I'm satisfied with how many ships I've got, I don't mind forming up a couple of thse guys into "the cripple TF" and sending them back to Pearl.

3. From 15 - 25 Sys Damage. These guys are pulled back, and are "extreme auxillaries" (depending on the circumstances). These guys are probably waiting on the next "cripple TF" to head to Pearl. I -can- call upon these guys as a stop gap if I have to, (like a CV, who wants to send those home?). But a CV with 25 Sys Dam call still launch strikes (or CAP for convoy escort) after all. But do I want a CV with 20 Sys Dam engaged in a full fight, away from the safety of land-based CAP and close proximtiy of port? No. But I'll keep her around until I see there's another CV or "something good" that I can "trade" her for. I don't want to send back a CV when all Pearl is gonna send me in trade is a bunch of DDs and few CLs.

So frankly, just keep your ships longer. They don't really lose THAT much effectiveness with Sys Dmg < 10. And even after 10, they're still usable in secondary duties until you've something in Pearl worth while to send your ships back for.

Regards,
-F-

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 8
- 1/11/2003 2:57:52 AM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		I don't know crap and I have been playing single player only (and will continue to do so for quite some time...)

BUT I have been doing basically what Feinder outlined above.

I also wonder how realistic/historical/believable it is for you as commander to simply ship stuff back you don't like (not damaged) like CVEs because you KNOW Pearl will give you something else? Sounds kinda odd that you are given a ship. You send back a CVE the day it arrives and several weeks later another CV arrives to replace it...

FWIW I have been keeping my USN CVE and using them as aircraft transports. :rolleyes:

_____________________________

The Grumbling Grognard

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 9
- 1/11/2003 3:14:51 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think the repair rates are too low, I think the sys damage accumulation is much too high. Nagumo had his carriers almost constantly engaged for 6 months before Midway and it wasn't the sys damage that did them in. :p U.S. warships also had long patrols, particularly the carriers which might spend 2 days in dock if they had recieved some bomb hits! Also, one wonders how you could maintain the Tokyo Express in the game considering the amount of sys damage accumulated.

There have been some proposals about this on the WitP board. One thing that I haven't seen though is the idea that it is not always a case of gradual wear and tear. Ships can be tooling around for a while with no noticeble damage at all, and then all the sudden a main bearing will break or something else will be badly busted (an unexpected magazine explosion for instance) and then the ship needs to be sent back for major work. Regular maintanence schedules are meant to prevent these kinds of things, not simply fix broken stuff. A regular maintenance period may be better to have than a gradual accumulation of sys damage, with ships that skip maintenance being more likely to go BOING!

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 10
- 1/11/2003 3:16:41 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumbling Grogn
[B]I don't know crap and I have been playing single player only (and will continue to do so for quite some time...)

BUT I have been doing basically what Feinder outlined above.

I also wonder how realistic/historical/believable it is for you as commander to simply ship stuff back you don't like (not damaged) like CVEs because you KNOW Pearl will give you something else? Sounds kinda odd that you are given a ship. You send back a CVE the day it arrives and several weeks later another CV arrives to replace it...

FWIW I have been keeping my USN CVE and using them as aircraft transports. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

Works just like the real thing if you ask me :)
Here's a note on how the WASP ended up in the Solomons:

'When Yorktown was lost in June 1942, Wasp was transfered to the Pacific. She joined the fleet at Pearl Harbor, then went south with it for Operation Watchtower, the invasion of Tulagi and Guadalcanal.'

High Command delegates ships and listen to your demands as far as it's possible.

Would also suggest that you played a short scenario pbem together with your AI games. Experience really sky rockets when you got a live opponent to discuss and try out things with!

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 11
- 1/11/2003 3:19:19 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		FWIW folks, it appears that you're not only competing with "yourself" to try to affect the release of reinforcements, but your opponent is affecting that number as well. The Low/Moderate/High release is very much a tool to not only funnel you reinforcements, but to keep the game competitive. From my OBSERVATION, what is going on, is the computer is comparting the total VP of your fleet to that of the enemy fleet. Then adjusting the number according to the commitment level, and the date in-game (example, the USN may be adjusted up the farther you go into 1943). The net difference between those two numbers affects your release percentage.

So for example, if you're getting the snot beat out of you, your opponent probably has a pretty high margin of VPs of active ships (not the VPs scored, the VPs of HIS ships that are in theater). He's likely going to have low priority of release because his command says he doen't need the ships, whereas you should have a high release probability because your command doesn't want the theater to collapse.

If your situation is such that you don't have much of a Navy, and your release probability is "surprisingly" low, your opponent is probably pretty shot up too. You also might take an inventory of what ships are sitting around. Do you really need those 20 APs if you've got your bases supplied and you're not planning any invasions in the next month? 20 APs X 12 pts each = 240 pts. That's starting to smell like a carrier to me if you send them back...

It's probably gaming the game a little bit, but I prefer to think of it as the politics that go on at the command, but

TIME YOUR RETURNS SO THAT WHEN YOU SEND THOSE SHIPS BACK (AND JUMP YOUR RELEASE PROBABILITY), THERE'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING USEFUL IN PEARL FOR THEM TO SEND YOU.

-F-

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 12
- 1/11/2003 3:35:15 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		Feinder, I think that this is exactly right. There is an "overlay" of evaluation going on that acts as a governor on your ship release probability.

I concur that you want to pick your times for returning ships that you don't want in hope of getting something you DO want, but there's usually better stuff back there in the rear areas all the time. Send that crap back, sez I, send it unmercifully, har har, matey.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 13
- 1/11/2003 6:09:31 AM   
jcjordan

 

Posts: 1900
Joined: 6/27/2001
Status: offline 		I think it would be nice if the game had a system with so many repair points each turn based on size of port that you could spend to fix ships. As the system is now, Midway would probably have been lost because Yorktown would have been in port for several months instead of a few days. In my experiences in the current system it does seem that the fewer damaged ships you have in port, the more likely that damage is repaired. I've had Nouema stocked full with damaged ships & waited over a week for a CV to repair 1 or 2pts, but when I've had only a few ships it's repaired several pts in the same timeframe but it may just be luck of the draw. The killer in the current system is that sometimes the damage is just from cruising, it arrives from Pearl with no damage but it can go to & from Nouema-Rabaul & come back with 10-12pts without even being attacked. Either they should tone down cruising damage or make it easier to repair in port or docked.

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 14
How To Reduce Operational Damage... - 1/11/2003 7:28:48 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		According to the game manual, TF's moving at maximum speed suffer much greater operational damage than ships moving at cruising speed. So it seems simple enough to help reduce operational damage by being a bit more reserved about when you move your TF's at maximum speed. For instance you might just be transfering a surface combat ASW group between bases.. If you have them set to Patrol/Do Not Retire they will cruise the whole way... If you have Retirement Allowed, they will move at maximum speed once within 25 hexes of the destination and burn up more fuel and take more operational damage. The same is true for Bombardment, Mine Warefare, and Fast Transport missions...

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 15
- 1/11/2003 8:28:00 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Jcjordon,

Not trying to refute you particulary, but I figured the Yorktown's repairs pre-Midway would come up on this thread. There is obviously no way that we can truely assign a "Sys Dam" value of the damage to York after Midway. But the intimation is that York was a 0 or minimal Sys Dam for Miday (in game terms).

The fact is, I've been sailing around a CV with 25 Sys Dam for almost a month in my PBEM game. She's perfectly capable of launching aircraft and recovering them. She may only be launching 80%, but 80% of 90 planes is enough that she might as well be "fully operational" (besides the fact that her max speed is 25 kts instead 32.

Most on these boards are aware that one of the "side victories" of the Coral Sea, what that Shok and Zui were crippled and off the line for 6 months following. Had they taken part in the Battle of Midway (as the could be expected they would), it's likely that the battle would have had vastly different results.

But my point is that, in game terms, it is likely that York would not have started Midway with 0 or even less than 10 Sys Dam (I feel like such a nerd trying to apply numbers to a real-life episode, but I suppose that's the point of this game). She might very well have been cruising into Midway with 15 - 20 Sys Dam, and (for the most part), able to fully operate her airgroups.

I'm not sure that the repair facilites need tweaking. I think it's unrealistic that if you got pasted by 4 bombs, you're gonna spend about 3 months in dry-dock if you want everything just like it was when she was christened. If you're not as pickey, and don't mind setting out with 15 Sys Dam, you can make some use of your vessel. But if you really want a dedicated repair team, you're gonna have to send her back to Pearl.

I'll agree it's frustrating tho. I just guess I just have a higher pain threshold as to what consititutes what is seaworthy or not.

-F-

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 16
Re: How To Reduce Operational Damage... - 1/11/2003 9:07:25 AM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]According to the game manual, TF's moving at maximum speed suffer much greater operational damage than ships moving at cruising speed. So it seems simple enough to help reduce operational damage by being a bit more reserved about when you move your TF's at maximum speed. For instance you might just be transfering a surface combat ASW group between bases.. If you have them set to Patrol/Do Not Retire they will cruise the whole way... If you have Retirement Allowed, they will move at maximum speed once within 25 hexes of the destination and burn up more fuel and take more operational damage. The same is true for Bombardment, Mine Warefare, and Fast Transport missions... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, this is a very good point.

But it raises another issue. Why do I have to alter my retirement option for my TF just to get it to adjust its speed? You mean I can not have a TF cruise from here to there and have orders to retire upon completion of the journey?

_____________________________

The Grumbling Grognard

(in reply to lupi)
Post #: 17
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