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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing

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Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 7/29/2013 11:43:28 AM

Oberst_Klink

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The AARs of Onkel Larry made me finalising, with a touch of finesse, my Kharkov '43 scenario, a modified version of Joao's original. So, volunteers for beta-testing, please?

Klink, Oberst

Edit: New version attached. Bug-fixed

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 8/29/2013 10:08:51 AM >

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 7/29/2013 12:40:36 PM

Foggy

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Count me in

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 7/29/2013 1:12:40 PM

Oberst_Klink

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There's no documentation, but here's an overview about the 'design philosophy', e.g. the modified .EQP file and some house-rules:

OK Gentleman, attached the latest version with specific equipment, mostly Rifle Squads and some other localized equipment.

I made some tweaks with in the range of existing combat values, so don't expect some 'Wunderwaffen' on either side.

I based the tweaks on the following facts and Norm's design and intention:

The AP (Anti-Personal) values are, as per Norm:

A 10 men Rfl Sqd has a AP of 19. This is represented in the game as Light Rifle Squad - 1 x Sqd Ldr + 9 x Rfl Men. Each soldier contributes an AP value of 2, except the Sqd Ldr who's foremost task is to lead. He is represented with half
the AP value. So 1(1) + 9(2) = 19

One LMG has an AP value of 6, as we know a regular Rifle Squad in the game got a value of 25. This is represented in my .EQP as e.g. Rfl Sqd + le.MG34/42 for the Germans. Other Rifle Squads with non-specific LMGs
are simply represented with adding a (+). Hence, a Hungarian Rifle Squad WITH an LMG is called: Rifle Squad FEG 35M(+).

Now, a Heavy Rifle Squad, and I refer to Bob Cross' analysis, is NOT equipped with one HMG BUT 2 x LMG. It's reflected and shown in the AP value. Remember, Norm's HRS has an AP value of 31

19 + 6 + 6 = 31!

Talking about the HMG. Norm's AP values reflect a 12.7mm or .50 calibre weapon such as the US M2 HMG or the Soviet DShK-38 12.7mm HMG. Those calibres naturally got some AT value, in this case 2.
NOW, how did I come up with the German MG42 s.MG (HMG) value of 24? Easy. I am aware it has not the punch of the M2 HMG, but the accuracy and the rate of fire while mounted on a tripod.
I simply used the standard value for the 2 x MMG (AP=12) and voil� - here's the 24. For one MG34/42 (a mix of them) is used the value 18. 1 x LMG (6) + 1 x MMG (12) = 18.

Some weapons or teams are represented with the amount of the specific weapons in parentheses. Most notably the MG34/42(1) m.MG team :)

I used the same philosophy for the German Motorized Rifle and Panzergrenadier, as well as Pioneer Squads, especially the AT and HEAT/Kinetic values.

An early Panzerfaust or PIAT got an AT value of 5
Late war PzF and the US Bazooka an AT value of 8
The Panzerschreck and post-WW2 Bazookas an AT value of 15.

We can assume that an AT team with an AP value of 16 got a mix of SMG and Rfl men, probably 4-6. But that's nicely represented as well.

Attrition Divider (AD) = 14 (seehttp://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3045873&mpage=1&key=Attrition%2CDivider�)
Maximum Rounds Per Battle (MRPB) = 3
AAA Lethality Level = 100 (no change so far, even with the AAA-bug fix, the Lw/VVS didn't play a major role, interdiction works as designed anyway)
Engineering Building Rate = 100 (Construction engineers still have a chance to assist units to dig in; however I also created 'pure' combat engineers who just fight, not dig e.g. Sapper, Utaz, Pinoneer, etc.)
Hex Conversion Rate = 75 (Adjusted because of the poxy weather, lack of reece, etc.)
Entrenchment Rate = 33 (It was bloody cold, frozen ground and no side had the time or much gusto to start digging in; remember, 1 day turns...)
Combat Density Penalty = 125 (try to avoid 'over-stacking' at all costs, unless you want to lose your men!)
Supply Movement Cost = 100
Readiness Movement Cost = 100

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 7/29/2013 4:20:16 PM

governato

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Oberst, have you done some tests on how a greater AP value for the rifle squads affects their losses? Ideally that should increase tank losses too...

Also:

Engineering Building Rate = 100 (Construction engineers still have a chance to assist units to dig in; however I also created 'pure' combat engineers who just fight, not dig e.g. Sapper, Utaz, Pioneer, etc.)

Very useful. Although I have realized through tests that squads with engineering capabilities only help their parent unit, not their stack...

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 7/29/2013 5:01:46 PM

Oberst_Klink

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quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

Oberst, have you done some tests on how a greater AP value for the rifle squads affects their losses? Ideally that should increase tank losses too...

Also:

Engineering Building Rate = 100 (Construction engineers still have a chance to assist units to dig in; however I also created 'pure' combat engineers who just fight, not dig e.g. Sapper, Utaz, Pioneer, etc.)

Very useful. Although I have realized through tests that squads with engineering capabilities only help their parent unit, not their stack...

The trick is to play a bit with the HEAT/Kinetic values :) I gave the Pioneers, Sappers, etc. an AT of 3, to reflect the use of AT-mines and satchel charges :D In all my 10+ Elemer vs. Elmer re-runs the tank losses seem to be OK. I realized that replacements can be further scaled down; the system places damaged units into the pool anyway and both sides didn't have the time, logistics, rest period to refresh their units anyway. Have to adjust some of the equipment replacements, too, e.g. tanks, guns... far too many IMHO. But the 1st tests and feedbacks will show.

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 7/29/2013 8:59:32 PM

Oberst_Klink

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Don't underestimate Elmer... I thought 3rd TC is having a nice drive to Pavlograd... now, here's the unit at turn 15...

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 7/30/2013 3:42:49 PM

Oberst_Klink

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A classic example how observed RR and occupied or cut RR can disturb the enemy's supply lines. Note the supply level at the intact RR and off the railhead that was cut by a leftover of 3TC. This is the key for both forces in the actual scenario. Bold thrusts and cut the enemy off its bullets, food and munitions.

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/28/2013 6:38:54 PM

Oberst_Klink

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Nobody interested at ALL to have a go at Kharkov '43? I am nearly done but I NEED beta-testers!

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/28/2013 7:07:27 PM

josant

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hello
Oberst, i just download it now, I will test and if I find any problems, I'll tell you.
I start to play as German vs computer

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/28/2013 9:29:32 PM

Oberst_Klink

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quote:

ORIGINAL: josant

hello
Oberst, i just download it now, I will test and if I find any problems, I'll tell you.
I start to play as German vs computer

Thanks! Elmer in general is doing a good job. Just no bridge destruction - house rule :) Documentation will follow at some stage after the beta testing.

Klaus

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/29/2013 11:55:58 AM

josant

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Hi, these are the scenarios that I like, is of an average size and Handy, I have no patience to play monster scenarios, and the size of this scenario and number of units is perfect.

Well, after 14 turns, the situation is as follows

In A, near Kharkov after a mass attack of the soviet finally i got back the enemy and i have taken the initiative.
In B after hard combats the situation is stabilized and again i take the initiative.
In C the situation is bad for me, the enemy is giving me hard, so i send some units (E) to reinforce my troops.
In D also the situation is bad for me, also is not as bad as in C.
In F I eliminate the enemy forces and move those units to D.

My plans are destroy enemy forces in A and B and then move those forces to reinforce in C and D, long as the Soviets did not receive massive reinforcements in the next turn and i must change my strategy.

Also I must say that i am using the AA patch by kmitahj (Is working very well)

So far I have not found any bug

The situation map is:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by josant -- 8/29/2013 12:03:57 PM >

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/29/2013 6:02:01 PM

josant

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One thing.
In turn 25 the computer retires a big part of his army, why?, is this a bug?. I check the news report and does not appear any news explaining it. See this image of turn 24 and turn 25

Attachment (1)

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/29/2013 7:46:59 PM

Oberst_Klink

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I already updated the scenario; there was an event that withdrew the whole Voroneszh Front. Updated the link in the post with the attachment.

Gracias!

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/30/2013 6:07:30 PM

Bill Earley

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Just downloaded the new version. Who would like to give it a go with me?

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/31/2013 1:19:01 AM

r6kunz

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I just downloaded Kahrkov '43, playing vs Marshall Elmer. Turn 5 or so. I think this scale does what TOAW does best-I am familiar with the Kharkov 1943 situation, but not in detail. I am faced with a decision to bolster my sagging defenses, or use the reinforcements to snip off the advancing Soviet Armies?
A fine melding of game vs history...nice job, Herr Oberst!
Wish me luck!
cheers

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/31/2013 10:51:57 AM

josant

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hello
I just finished the scenario (Driving the Germans)and i say that with the latest beta I have not found any bug. Good Job, Oberst, and excellent job making the database. So waiting for what others beta tester say, for me the scenario is valid.

Note: the scenario ends in a victory for me

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/31/2013 2:38:24 PM

Oberst_Klink

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Earley

Just downloaded the new version. Who would like to give it a go with me?

Let's have a PBEM, what side? I just need to see how it works up until tunr 8-18 or so.

Klink, Oberst

oberst.w.klink@gmail.com

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 8/31/2013 2:48:48 PM

Oberst_Klink

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Thanks to all of you giving it a try! Once the beta-testing is over I am going to produce some smashing documentation and more tweaks for the scenario. Highly recommended to play it with the AAA2Opart 3.exe (AAA-bug fix).

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/21/2013 3:27:04 AM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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Great scenario! I hope to be in shape to PBEM in a few days....I am still working my way through the General Staff training, trying to make sure I get the nuts & bolts right. TAOW can really punish you if you don't dot the "i's" and cross the "t's".

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/21/2013 4:58:46 AM

Oberst_Klink

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PRUSSIAN TOM

Great scenario! I hope to be in shape to PBEM in a few days....I am still working my way through the General Staff training, trying to make sure I get the nuts & bolts right. TAOW can really punish you if you don't dot the "i's" and cross the "t's".

This version is currently being revised, using Telumar's ingenious research. I suggest to play this version as Soviets vs. Elmer, far more challenging. There are still units on the field that shouldn't be there and the TO&E is still a bit iffy.

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/24/2013 6:02:15 AM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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Round one of Kharkov '43 went to Elmer.

As the Soviets, my goal was to advance aggressively, but maintain a decent logistics base, so that I would be ready for the inevitable German counter-offensive. I took Belgrod ahead of time, getting 10 extra VP's.

My troops were closing on Kharkov, and by turn 15 I had stomped most of the Germans to the east of that city, surrounding and pocketing them by the thousands!

A see-saw battle for control of the city was going in my favor, and the dreaded SS Panzers were being wiped out by the scores.

The fight in the south was going well. My casualties were only slightly greater that the German's (I was VERY pleased with the attrition ratio; by turn 20, I had lost about 10% more troops than the PO.

Then I remembered something disquieting...I was counting casualties in terms of UNITS, and recall that a Russian Corps was about the size of a German DIVISION. Hmmm....

I still had lots of troops holding strong defensive positions, and was still advancing; most of the German troops were fleeing west, pursued by my T34's.

I was kicking serious ass, and (as I had (unwisely) told Herr Oberst, "I did NOT read the scenario dump, because I want to see how it felt with the same level information the historical commander had." (As an avid WW2 buff, I am quite familiar with accounts the historical battle). The Russians outran they supply net, and when their troops were reaching the "culmination point," the got bushwhacked by a huge batch of fresh German Panzer troops. A classic reversal, due to Russian arrogance. Somehow, I overlooked the fact that it is 2013, and this is a simulation of what occurred in 1943!

I was avoiding THAT mistake, and would certainly prevail.

Unfortunately, I overlooked the German's famously good staff work; they took flexability and maneuver to new heights in their counteroffensive.

Things happened pretty quickly after that...more Panzers that could possibly exist came at me from all sides (well, from the west, the German side of the line). They chopped up my troops (who were celebrating their glorious victory a bit prematurely, swilling all the vodka they could get the hands on...

.

Not a career-enhancing performance...I was transferred to Siberia, and am counting moose chips. I'm better off than my men, who are either dead, or POW's.

I had so much fun with this scenario, that I am burning the midnight oil, having another whack at it as Ivan!

It may still be in beta-testing, but it is a blast to play, and an excellent learning tool. Getting smashed to bits is a great way to see what you did wrong; I hope to give Fritz a bit of a surprise this time. Kudos to Herr Oberst for a most excellent scenario. I have been glued to my PC for the better part of 72 hours now.

!!!

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/27/2013 7:25:59 AM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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Round 2 has the Russians, older & wiser, doing a bit better...

. I am paying a LOT more attention to unit status, supply, readiness... and the results (so far) are impressive. I'm only 10 turns or so alson, so things are still getting going. It is, as always, a wild, fun ride.

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/28/2013 3:31:14 PM

Morshead

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I'm also onto it Herr Oberst. Very impressed with your efforts and your band of support troops!

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/31/2013 3:08:13 PM

Morshead

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Turns 1 - to 4 - I hope this is beneficial Herr Oberst -

Turn 1 �V Soviet assaults make sense, with the PO acting to push back the most exposed German units. I break off engagement where possible �V using field-ersatz battalions as cannon-fodder to allow more capable units a retreat path [Q1 �V should these break? I say yes, but it does seem an advantage]. I place my HS129��s on interdiction and pull back Ju-87��s to Dnepropetrovsk. GD, and Das Reich are pulled-back toward Belgorod. [Q2 �V Is GR Regiment Langemark deliberately denoted via a ��Recon�� unit icon?] The Hungarian units will hopefully be of some use holding ��quiet sectors�� in a few turns. They are being evacuated across the Donets if they can outrun the Russkis. In the south 7th Panzer will break into a main-force headed for Lozovaya and a separate Kampfgruppe that will act to hold 1st Panzer Army��s lines of comms and supply open by defending the Artemovsk area and its associated road net. So-far so good.
T2 �V The Axis player moves into phasing player (interesting question �V does this make sense given the Soviet��s appear to have the initiative at the start of this campaign? I believe the original Lima scenario did the same thing �V perhaps for good reason). Taking this opportunity I simply move my forces out of harms-way as best I can since I have been gifted an opportunity to outrun the Soviet advance units. My plan is to start to form robust defences where I want to defend, and limited switch-lines where I am comfortable conceding ground.
�X 7th Pz �V continues its concentration at Lozovaya �V moving by rail.
�X 298 & 320th Inf �V pull back towards Izyum
�X 382 FA �V moved to cover Slavyansk
�X GD, Das Reich, 168 Inf �V and the Hungarians make a fairly safe getaway across the Donets untroubled by Soviet interdiction or forces
�X 1SS moves up to Krasnograd �V some by rail �V others have to drive as my rail capacity is exhausted. This transport limitation feels well-modelled.
�X 213 SEC �V moves to cover the Donets bridges east of Kharkov
�X Luftwaffe assets are either resting (J-87) or on interdiction.
PO duly pushes the Soviets forward �V where they brush with 382 FA both north and south of Veremovka. South of Slavyansk they smash a hapless Turkish battalion - as expected - and look to cross the minor river at Kramatorsk. In the north they are unable to chase-down even the slowest units still rushing for the Donets.
T3 �V Realigning German dispositions continues �V basically running for the Donets and building up its defence �V along with strong fortified defence at Belgorod manned by SSDR. Ongoing moves as per T2. Concentration XL Pz Corps on Lozovaya (7, 19, 27 Pz Divs) and forming-up XLVIII at Orelka (3Pz en-route). Small battlegroups from 27 and 3 Pz are left behind to hold-open Artemovsk �V Gorlovka �V which may be inadequate for the task.
PO strikes hard toward Izyum, and Slavyansk, and is starting to mince the 382nd FA Div. Popov Tank Brigade overruns and destroys the 617 GR III quite easily. 382 FA is not properly dug-in. 320th holds quite well in front of Izyum, which shows the benefits of digging in and holding behind the as-yet unfrozen water-courses. In the north Soviet units continue to push forward �V but still can��t catch the coat-tails of the retreating Germans. [Q3 - In a PBEM �V I wonder if this is consistent given what happens with the German player gaining effectively 2-turn move advantage when playing the PO?]
T4 - With the restricted area north of Belgorod removed I am immediately taking advantage by moving up SS Wiking to occupy what I assume are Soviet 40th-Army entry hexes �V and their supply point. I will eventually move only infantry into this position and redeploy Wiking for other more sinister purposes [Q4 �V this seems a bit too easy versus what I recall of the historic situation? i.e. I thought the Germans had to initially evacuate Belgorod under great pressure whereas I am turning it into a well-defended fortress under virtually no pressure].
PO finally reaches the Donest at Belgorod, Volchansk, and Chugayev to the east of Kharkov. At all sites the bridges are blown and German units hold the far bank. In the south Russian units make every effort to reach the brides at Izyum, but are held-up just shy of the town by the final Wehrmacht units holding a minor bridgehead to the east of the town. These units have struggled to make their way to the Izyum crossing site. Furtehr south in the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk sector the Popov group creates havoc in the poorly deployed infantry division lines.

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/31/2013 3:49:38 PM

Oberst_Klink

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Morsehead, I presume it's the version I sent/linked to you a few weeks ago? I am NEARLY done with the implementation of Telumar''s awesome collection of TO&E for all Pz.Div. during the late 42 and early 43 time period. I guess you and Tom should play the next version, done by Saturday, aye?

On a side-note: NO BRIDGE destructions ;)

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/31/2013 9:58:57 PM

Morshead

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Sorry Herr Oberst, I saw the comments about 'latest version' appended above and downloaded from here. I'm a klutz at the best of times. Don't expect me to know what I am doing with computers as well as with battles raging. I'll await your orders, and yes if the Prussian Tom wants to road-test your masterpiece I will happily oblige.

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Post #: 26

RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 10/31/2013 11:03:32 PM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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I will get wiped out, as I am still suffering as the Russians from overconfidence, due to how much fun the game is. Better use of the recon units and engineers needs to be added to the to do list. I need to wait until Saturday, (surgical procedure Friday). Very minor. "You bet, I can pop out 1 turn/day, unless you see an RIP notice late Friday..." Possible medical SNAFU

. Final reply Saturday. I have been playing Soviet's, but will take either side. I will be easy meat. I forgot the "E-mail" feature, will send mine after posting...must be the

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 11/3/2013 12:27:34 PM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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Ready to rock! Kudos to Oberst Klink, not only for an excellent scenario, but for helping a TAOW-challenged person install new graphics (I can see the roads a LOT better). Probably start within 12 hours, time for a power nap.

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RE: Kharkov '43 now ready for beta-testing - 11/19/2013 11:44:51 AM

PRUSSIAN TOM

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Back on track...Turn 5 w/Morshead. VS PO, took Kharkov on time...got bonus points for Kharkov & Belogrod.

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