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RE: Discontinued? - 7/22/2013 4:18:49 PM   
kmitahj

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 4/25/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
[...]
Good show, but... d/l link, please?! It's of utmost importance that I can use it to finalize the Kharkpv '43 and the upcoming (alas planned...) Mius '43 scenario!

Klink, Oberst

Hello Herr Oberst,
There is no download link per see because it is just home-made patch, and as such it's result of hacking rather then software engineering
I think it should be said clearly just to avoid setting hopes too high. As it is the patch should be treated rather as "what if" test case or food for thought in discussion what the final solution should look like. Only after critical evaluation by people like you - that is experienced in designing scenarios - it could be decided if the patch has a potential for beeing a solution.
That beeing said if you would like to take a look and test it for yourself PM me please with your email address and I will send it to you (or just PM Larry who I guess won't mind to send a copy to you)

Speaking of patch deficiences here is one discovered in latest tests. As I said above it is rather dumb patch: it is allowing literally all units in range to participate in AAA fire. All units in this case means that also AIR units within fixed range (50km) may contribute to AAA fire as if they were equipped with long-range SAM missiles. BAD!!!
I'm going to find a way to exclude AIR units (and only AIR units) from participating in AAA procedure. However such bit smarter version won't be ready before weekend when I should have some time to work at it.


(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 91
RE: Discontinued? - 7/22/2013 7:17:27 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kmitahj
...(or just PM Larry who I guess won't mind to send a copy to you)

I just now sent a copy to Colonel Klink. I didn't mind.

(in reply to kmitahj)
Post #: 92
RE: Discontinued? - 7/22/2013 9:31:40 PM   
USXpat

 

Posts: 388
Joined: 8/26/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmlima


quote:

ORIGINAL: USXpat

....
For Matrix, it's a choice between a combined arms development paradigm or sticking to trench warfare.


Not sure if the pun on Combined Arms is intended, but when you stick in the same sentence 'Matrix', 'Combined Arms' and 'development', inside me there's a voice tha instantly goes 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...'.

Also, not sure why, but suddenly a tumble-weed came to my mind.



heh, no... that wasn't an intentional reference to the other project, more a matter of using a 3-d printer vs. a typewriter analogy. I'll take better care with those... heh...

(in reply to jmlima)
Post #: 93
Luftwaffe losses: free book - 7/22/2013 10:35:28 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Just pointing out a free to download book on the Luftwaffe, with lots of notes on air losses during WWII.

Williamson Murray's 'Strategy for Defeat', published by Air University Press.


By looking at different sources it seems to me that effective AA should contribute 'significantly' to overall aircraft losses. I would handwave wildly to say about 30-50%.

< Message edited by governato -- 7/23/2013 6:39:52 AM >

(in reply to USXpat)
Post #: 94
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 12:29:12 AM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline 		kmitahj....

If you want to make a hack that would make a big difference with TOAW... hack the code so that the part that reduces the movement points (action points? I haven't played TOAW in so long I can't remember) of all your units across the board after you make an attack... is just not executed.

In other words, give TOAW *FREE MOVEMENT*!

Yeah, would be a bit less historical but... a huge improvement in player friendliness and would make all the large number of scenarios developed for TOAW.... worth playing.

Z

(in reply to kmitahj)
Post #: 95
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 3:44:15 AM   
Shazman

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

kmitahj....

If you want to make a hack that would make a big difference with TOAW... hack the code so that the part that reduces the movement points (action points? I haven't played TOAW in so long I can't remember) of all your units across the board after you make an attack... is just not executed.

In other words, give TOAW *FREE MOVEMENT*!

Yeah, would be a bit less historical but... a huge improvement in player friendliness and would make all the large number of scenarios developed for TOAW.... worth playing.

Z


Yeah, make it an arcade game so even a brainless moron can play it. Who wants to have to think when playing a game, right?

Worst idea ever.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 96
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 6:28:20 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		All this started by not even a good rumor...
First as long as there is no official R.I.P. and as long as there isn't at least 5 years since the last life sign of Ralph I still consider this game as ALIVE.
Second, please start the next useless thread with a good rumor like "TOAW III is disguised NSA Spysoftware" or something like that, hearing nothing is simply that NOTHING and not a sign of a discontinued game.
Third, thanks to governato for the only useful thing here.

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Post #: 97
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 7:04:39 AM   
jmlima

 

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Joined: 3/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
...
First as long as there is no official R.I.P. and as long as there isn't at least 5 years since the last life sign of Ralph I still consider this game as ALIVE.
...


Judging by Combined Arms you need to extend that time frame to about 15 years.

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 98
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 8:59:45 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

kmitahj....

If you want to make a hack that would make a big difference with TOAW... hack the code so that the part that reduces the movement points (action points? I haven't played TOAW in so long I can't remember) of all your units across the board after you make an attack... is just not executed.

In other words, give TOAW *FREE MOVEMENT*!

Yeah, would be a bit less historical but... a huge improvement in player friendliness and would make all the large number of scenarios developed for TOAW.... worth playing.

Z

Movement rates can be adjusted in the editor, same for other important tweaks. No need to adjust this. The ignore losses/fortification 'issue' should be the next on the list :D

Klink, Oberst

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(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 99
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 9:38:30 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kmitahj


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink
[...]
Good show, but... d/l link, please?! It's of utmost importance that I can use it to finalize the Kharkpv '43 and the upcoming (alas planned...) Mius '43 scenario!

Klink, Oberst

Hello Herr Oberst,
There is no download link per see because it is just home-made patch, and as such it's result of hacking rather then software engineering
I think it should be said clearly just to avoid setting hopes too high. As it is the patch should be treated rather as "what if" test case or food for thought in discussion what the final solution should look like. Only after critical evaluation by people like you - that is experienced in designing scenarios - it could be decided if the patch has a potential for beeing a solution.
That beeing said if you would like to take a look and test it for yourself PM me please with your email address and I will send it to you (or just PM Larry who I guess won't mind to send a copy to you)

Speaking of patch deficiences here is one discovered in latest tests. As I said above it is rather dumb patch: it is allowing literally all units in range to participate in AAA fire. All units in this case means that also AIR units within fixed range (50km) may contribute to AAA fire as if they were equipped with long-range SAM missiles. BAD!!!
I'm going to find a way to exclude AIR units (and only AIR units) from participating in AAA procedure. However such bit smarter version won't be ready before weekend when I should have some time to work at it.



It is a feat of reverse engineering mate! It makes a BIG difference and I have been running tests that look overall more than promising! If losses are too high, one can simply use the AAA lethality settings in the editor to adjust it :) Again, well done mate! +1

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 100
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 11:55:09 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 2236
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline 		And where shall that end? Hacked .exes passed from player to player? How many versions of hacked exes will there be ater some time..?

I would be careful with that. And after all, we're in the Matrix forums here. Maybe no good place to trade (their) hacked executables of a product that is officially still supported.

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Post #: 101
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 12:00:27 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

And where shall that end? Hacked .exes passed from player to player? How many versions of hacked exes will there be ater some time..?

I would be careful with that. And after all, we're in the Matrix forums here. Maybe no good place to trade (their) hacked executables of a product that is officially still supported.

Simply testing to make scenarios playable again.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 102
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 12:23:22 PM   
Shazman

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2009
Status: offline 		Once kmitahj gets it working properly (no I-16 SAM) we can simply pass around that version. I don't see a problem with it. And since Matrix seemingly refused to fix a bug that was obviously easily fixed I don't have a problem with using it I guess. Unless, for some unfathomable reason, Matrix puts the nix to someone fixing their product in a way that will increase sales. This only affects people who have already bought it. It in no way hurts sales.

Still can't understand why this couldn't have been done in house.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 103
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 2:22:35 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shazman
Once kmitahj gets it working properly (no I-16 SAM) we can simply pass around that version. I don't see a problem with it.

The problem would be if somebody who hasn't purchased TOAW yet was to get a copy of it somehow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shazman
And since Matrix seemingly refused to fix a bug that was obviously easily fixed I don't have a problem with using it I guess.
Unless, for some unfathomable reason, Matrix puts the nix to someone fixing their product in a way that will increase sales.
This only affects people who have already bought it. It in no way hurts sales.

Um.....MG might get worked up about it because of the reason stipulated in the answer for the first quote. Somebody who hasn't yet
purchased TOAW getting a copy of this executable probably wouldn't get somebody a playable executable because of all the
registry entries and supporting files that are needed by the running executable for instance. So even if a pirate got a copy he
probably couldn't play it. Still, MG will probably get worked up over this.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shazman
Still can't understand why this couldn't have been done in house.

Um.......usually in-house changes are done to the source code and it's recompiled. What kmitahj did was probably working w/ an
assembler or a debugger or a hex editor stepping through the raw machine code. I've done this and it's NOT easy and he was
probably working on this fix for several days if not a week. Well, at least several hours. I've tried to do this kind of thing to other
programs and even though I'm an experienced programmer I wouldn't want to fix a program this way. Again.

(in reply to Shazman)
Post #: 104
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 2:24:02 PM   
Zaratoughda


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/15/2008
From: NE Pa, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda

kmitahj....

If you want to make a hack that would make a big difference with TOAW... hack the code so that the part that reduces the movement points (action points? I haven't played TOAW in so long I can't remember) of all your units across the board after you make an attack... is just not executed.

In other words, give TOAW *FREE MOVEMENT*!

Yeah, would be a bit less historical but... a huge improvement in player friendliness and would make all the large number of scenarios developed for TOAW.... worth playing.

Z


Yeah, make it an arcade game so even a brainless moron can play it. Who wants to have to think when playing a game, right?

Worst idea ever.


Glad you have an opinion Shazman. The fact that it is worthless is just a minor matter. But, you should indeed know what it means to be a 'brainless moron'.

(in reply to Shazman)
Post #: 105
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 5:21:31 PM   
Shazman

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/4/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
Glad you have an opinion Shazman. The fact that it is worthless is just a minor matter. But, you should indeed know what it means to be a 'brainless moron'.




Good one.

It's bad enough with turn based games as it is. But if you throw all time/space considerations out the window you end up with the Germans running all the way to the Black Sea in one week. Impossible but you can do it in WiTE that has no time and space rules.

Example: The Germans blast a hole in the Soviet lines, something they couldn't do with the inadequate forces in the south, and then units that have not been moved yet move through the hole unopposed. Problem is, the units that move through the hole are doing so the exact same time the other German units are battling the Soviet units that are in the way. Somehow they magically move right through those Soviet units. It's science fiction.

You have to have some way to account for the amount of time any single unit has taken to do something. You can't have one unit move and attack and then have another unit receive it's entire movement allowance as though no time has passed at all during the first unit's movement and combat. To do so makes any game doing that more of an arcade game than a realistic game of a battle.

Personally if that's how someone want's to play their games fine. WiTE is like that. I don't play it. John Tiller started out his Panzer Campaigns that way but found out many didn't want to play his wargames as arcade games so now there's an option to play in a more realistic manner. Maybe you can convince Matrix to give an arcade play option that ignores time and space so there's less thought involved in what is done to play the game. Good luck with that.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 106
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 5:44:53 PM   
josant

 

Posts: 538
Joined: 3/14/2007
From: Spain
Status: offline 		I try the patch and... Fantastic, It works

quote:

ORIGINAL: kmitahj
Speaking of patch deficiences here is one discovered in latest tests. As I said above it is rather dumb patch: it is allowing literally all units in range to participate in AAA fire. All units in this case means that also AIR units within fixed range (50km) may contribute to AAA fire as if they were equipped with long-range SAM missiles. BAD!!!
I'm going to find a way to exclude AIR units (and only AIR units) from participating in AAA procedure. However such bit smarter version won't be ready before weekend when I should have some time to work at it.

when kmitahj can solve this, the patch will be perfect.

(in reply to Shazman)
Post #: 107
RE: Discontinued? - 7/23/2013 10:28:47 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

The problem would be if somebody who hasn't purchased TOAW yet was to get a copy of it somehow.


I'm sure you need more than just the .exe to run the game. Otherwise, the free updates available would short-circuit the need to buy the game. (In fact, that's one of the common troubleshooting issues on the help board: somebody has downloaded the update and thinks the game will work with just that alone).

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 7/23/2013 10:29:06 PM >

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Post #: 108
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 2:11:23 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		OK I've been lurking this thread and wanna throw my 50 cents in..., IF indeed there is a patched EXE (or is it rather OPART3?) which at least fixes the AA issue, it should be issued viua the regular MG updates, as Telumar mentioned to avoid any confusion with different versions of patched EXE's ...

Also then at least I can come out of the shadow and roll out some updated scenarios...

Now there's still this thing with the "ignore losses" which may be more troublesome to fix

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Post #: 109
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 2:24:32 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		I really would like to know what Matrix says to that unofficial EXE.
If AA is really done and the ignore losses" problem could be killed too it would at least put the game in a playable state again, I guess they aren't happy with the way it goes but I'm sure they see the benefit of it.

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Post #: 110
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 2:58:22 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		The question indeed is, would Matrix endorse an unofficial patch?

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Post #: 111
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 4:19:44 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

The question indeed is, would Matrix endorse an unofficial patch?

They seem to have done so with WitP AE, no? The only 'old'game that has a dedicated support by this Aussie bloke who provides constant 'un-official' updates and uses the feedback of the community.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 112
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 4:33:54 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
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From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

They seem to have done so with WitP AE, no? The only 'old'game that has a dedicated support by this Aussie bloke who provides constant 'un-official' updates and uses the feedback of the community.

Klink, Oberst

It seems the only way to go, provided there's order and structure, and no wild grow of updates and bugfixes to be accessed at various locations

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Post #: 113
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 5:12:28 AM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Not sure how "unofficial" his work is, the last line of "unofficial" beta patches turned into a official patch and I guess this line will end the same way.
Also I think it was Matrix that started this way and not michaelm showing up to present a modified EXE.

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Post #: 114
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 5:15:43 AM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
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From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

I really would like to know what Matrix says to that unofficial EXE.



Hopefully nothing, or given that there is a precedent with WitP, follow that. The key is that one cannot play the game without all the other files. Then it's just good PR for the game for sure. Also, I honestly 'd not worry too much about having too many versions etc etc. There is one guy who is improving the code, after years of stagnation. Cheers to that!

Or we could just sit and wait for v3.5. Ummm.


Silvansky: do not be so skeptical! Some tests have already been posted on this forum by various people who have the updated executable. It works very well.


< Message edited by governato -- 7/24/2013 5:33:24 AM >

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Post #: 115
RE: Discontinued? - 7/24/2013 5:21:08 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: governato


Silvansky: do not be so skeptical! Some tests have already been posted on this forum by various people who have the updated executable. It works very well.

I'm not sceptical, only cautious

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Post #: 116
RE: Discontinued? - 8/7/2013 8:05:49 PM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
Joined: 4/13/2006
From: Dublin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shazman


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

You've got to understand that businesses are not there to do what you want them to. They're there to make a profit and I would not ask them to do anything out of the goodness of their hearts. It's not fair to them.

TOAW is "dead" because it is an extreme fringe game.


The sheep have spoken. And with that attitude you are sure to get what you desire. Nothing.
What these men say. Shazman, you have my vote for ALL your thoughts in this thread and thanks.

This lamb also says, try World of Tanks (review here), as some other long-time TOAWers have done, until someone girds their loins to sort TOAW. Free to play, pay to win if you really want too. The future. Lighter fare sure, but great fun. PM me if you want some help in a training room or to platoon, glad to help any TOAWers here (I can probably save you a lot of $s/heartache starting out).

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Post #: 117
RE: Discontinued? - 8/7/2013 8:17:41 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Oh please **** World of Tanks, no one needs this frustrating, Ivan biased, boring game!
GO FOR WARTHUNDER.

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Post #: 118
RE: Discontinued? - 8/7/2013 8:26:31 PM   
Catch21

 

Posts: 511
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From: Dublin
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quote:

Oh please **** World of Tanks, no one needs this frustrating, Ivan biased, boring game!
GO FOR WARTHUNDER.

Thanks, I'll look. Only half tongue in cheek, good to see the TOAW forum handy for some useful (hopefully positive) news for a change...


< Message edited by General Staff -- 8/7/2013 8:27:54 PM >

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Post #: 119
RE: Discontinued? - 8/7/2013 9:36:53 PM   
Sensei.Tokugawa


Posts: 341
Joined: 4/6/2010
From: Wieluñ, Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: burroughs

That's great, I have almost laughed my arse off, it's so typical of any institiution and company to justify their avoiding doing what they're suppossed to be doing.Neoliberal crap. The next in line is the postman saying that I should not be expecting his services and my mail to be delivered as it is not fair to expect that of him since he's being very busy and after other things.


This analogy doesn't hold up. You paid Matrix for a copy of TOAW. Did they refuse to send it to you after you'd paid for it?

I don't think there was any point where Matrix signed an agreement with you, personally, to further develop the game. Moreover, they have in fact made several major advances in doing so, none of which you were charged for.

If you want to vent, go vent at Take-Two Interactive, who were so utterly obtuse as to demand a totally outrageous sum for the core rights to TOAW. If they had been more reasonable a) they would probably have got more money for their IP and b) Norm Koger would have gotten back the rights to his game and taken it from there years ago.


... but seriously. I was addressing the neoliberal crap about business and not the particular situation regarding TOAW III. If You didn't see the analogy, why did You use this as a context? Perhaps it was intended and there is no logical mistake there then. However, there is the analogy, it only depends which way one wants to juggle the words. It's the same as with the law - the law and the business with their discourses want to make others think their existence is an ultimate universal phenomenon whereas it is only possible through social agreement and the society are the people.The people have the voice and the right to have their say. Everybody's got a discourse of his own.The rest is willingness or unwillingness to bridge the gaps which are natural and unavoidable. Here we don't see the will to hence ranting and raving. People are trying to communicate and it's falling on deaf ears whereas You're trying to pacify that with slick apologies. Serial killers are also the way they are.It's not an argument, it's a circumstance.

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Post #: 120
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