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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

 
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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:13:30 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I think there are more for sure. Higher CV equals more attack opportunities, more victories, more Guards.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:16:49 AM   
morvael


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From: Poland
Status: offline 		There is little of diminishing returns in this game, we mainly see effects of positive feedback loop - that leads to various over the top situations. The limits are supposed to be there (like morale drops for units with morale way over NM), but they are too weak to compensate gains from other rules.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 10:16:11 AM   
morvael


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From: Poland
Status: offline 		I made some tests and I saw up to 3 points increase in morale after victorious combat, but only for units several points below NM. Units with good morale (on or over NM) usually did not get anything. However, this behavior changes immediately with global morale setting over 100, where every unit every time got at least 1 point morale bump after each victorious combat. The problem with "difficulty" settings in the game is that you think of them as linear, but they are not - several bonuses kicks in once a certain level is passed. We knew about the 120 level that did some wonders for the AI, 101 may be another such threshold which gives too much morale from combat.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 10:52:30 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don77

Guards Units

Another impact of the currently high Sov morale - getting Guards status is quicker, and of greater volume. I am at T16 (playing Ge) against a good opponent, and the Sovs now have close to 20 Guards Rifle Divs. This may be directly from combat victories, or though better morale indirectly contributing to higher base morale or resilience? Right now my opponent is counter attacking with multiple Guards Divs (grouped into armies). Interestingly, this in turn could contribute to the 'snowball effect'; that Pelton talks about (this time in the Sovs favour)

Appreciate anyone else's insights to whether there are more Guards in 41 their experiences?

Don


I hope they lower the behind the front 10 hexes morale from 50 to 45, which would end the over powered 41 SHC.

A very simple fix that would make the game as good as it will get until wite 2

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 11:02:06 AM   
morvael


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From: Poland
Status: offline 		Don77, morale is not directly responsible for guards status, only win counter is. Perhaps you give your opponent chances to score wins by leaving weak screens he can attack, or by making failed hasty attacks? A meagre 7 wins (and no more than 7 defeats) is all that is required to get guards in '41.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 11:24:21 AM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		My experiences are limited to playing against the AI so maybe this is a bit off topic here. BTW don't consider myself a top notch player either

Started a campain as the Axis on normal. Presently I am in October in the mud phase prior to the Blizzard. This is what I observed with the new patch:

1. The Soviets are much tougher both inside and outside of pockets. Hasty attacks don't work that often and I'm limiting such attacks only in the 'open' hexes. Any other type of hex, and even a single infantry division can stop a top notch panzer division. Repeatedly.

2. Mopping up operations take quite some time especially for big pockets. Ex the opening pocket at Minsk took me roughly 3 weeks to liquidate especially since there were some hard nuts to crack, usually using 2 infantry divisions launching deliberate attacks.

3. Soviet AI kind of grew gutsy. It made a concerted effort to hold Pskov and committed substantial forces to the battle there while building its position around Leningrad. It managed to hold me in check for about 4 weeks until infantry from Army Group North. Incidentally, it overcommitted to the battle and once I broke through, the Valdai Hills gap was unprotected and just sent a panzer corps through there.

4. Soviet AI also fought well on the river obstacles and in many cases mounted a creditible defence. Only a quick seizure of Kiev and by sneaking panzer divisions over the rivers could one make rapid progress. Otherwise, I had to wait for the infantry to slog it to the front.

5. Soviet defence later fell apart on all fronts except the north when it continued to defend the north at all costs. the centre was left wide open and could have reached Moscow if I wanted to though I declined the invite because I was already overextended and didn't want to kill off the game (I'd love to continue playing till '45 to see all the units for once).

6. Having said that, what surprised me most was that once afforded a breather from turn 14 or so, I've seen the AI attacking already. In the north it eliminated 2 fortified zones carlessly placed upfront while in the centre it must have concentrated a lot of its strength and mounted 6 and 9 division attacks, pushing back my front line infantry. Although the bulk of the front is covered by weak brigades of all kinds, in front of Moscow and even up north (despite the fall of Leningrad), the AI has quickly moved in limited offensive mode, picking at the weak points of my line.


So in all honesty, with the current patch, the game feels like its being played on hard or so, rather than normal. Its an interesting experience but I guess in MP mode it has unbalanced the game a bit. I've also seen at least 3 guard units (2 divisions and a brigade) popping up, but I don't know if its an AI thing or just the result of my actions.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 11:57:08 AM   
SigUp

 

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Status: offline 		Honestly, the higher morale gains are great for single player against the Soviet AI. Especially if you increase the morale settings to 110 or higher and lower the German logistics to 60 or so, you really have to struggle to get to the historical lines. German losses are also much higher with those strong Soviet units and as it is the AI it really fights forward and also allows you to create good pockets, while forcing you to be careful and not leave a unit exposed (I once lost 90 of 120 tanks after a Panzer Division was pushed back...). Furthermore in those battles one really feels the worth of the Luftwaffe ground support. The Stukas, He-111 and Ju-88s really turned a lot of 50-50 or even 40-60 battles in my favour. But yeah, against a human opponent those morale levels are a killer, especially since 50+ morale Soviet units won't rout.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 12:17:53 PM   
vinnie71

 

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Status: offline 		Agreed. The Soviets have become tougher, but what surprised me was the fact that the AI chose to fight up front. I've seen it set up pretty good and solid defences around Pskov and later on around Moscow. The fact that units don't rout that often also means that losses for the soviets have gone down while losses for the Axis have gone up. Incidentally, some brigades in rough terrain also became a bit of a pain in the neck given that they can't be dislodged easily.

BTW the axis minor allies have become even more useless though since even the Finns have to deliberately attack almost all the time. The Romanians have become a joke in '41 though I'm hoping that a winter at home or in garrison might raise their morale a bit. My hope rests on the fact that one division (4 Infantry) had its morale at 55 when it became active and therefore other units might have their morale rise as well.

One last thing - I haven't seen any Hiwis come on line. When are they supposed to start appearing in units? Wasn't it in October '41 (like the use of Soviet weaponry)?

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 1:54:59 PM   
SigUp

 

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Status: offline 		I think Hiwis start from January 1942 onwards. As for the Axis minors, you can use the same 1.07 changes. Granted, the Rumanian divisions that are active from turn 3 on with their 40 morale or so are useless, unless you stack them high. But for those that activate later, just set them to refit and watch all of them get up to 50, in some cases even more, morale. I think right now in March 1942, aside from those few divisions that suffered from the blizzard in the Crimea, no Rumanian division is below 50 morale. Same counts for the Hungarians. But yes, the AI utilizes good terrain rather good. I initially thought that with the AI committing to a tough defence South of the Luga (a mistake, I drove my panzers through a hole to the sea and trapped like 200.000 men) the Valdai area would be lightly guarded, as I did not see many units in front of the Lovat. Guessed wrong. The AI had units set there behind the river, when my infantry arrived they were already in level 2 forts, so north of Kholm the advance halted in August 41.

< Message edited by SigUp -- 7/24/2013 2:08:35 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 3:00:02 PM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		The solution to the problem, if there really is a problem, may be very complex:

"The unit’s morale is below its national morale. In this case it can recover as much as 10% of the national morale but not more than the country's national morale (Example: German national morale is 70 in 1942 so a unit could recover 7 per turn, not to exceed 70 for a non-elite unit)."

This means that a Soviet unit with a morale of 40 in 6/41 could be to 50 in 3 moves, even without moving off the front 10 hexes away...


"The unit is in a very good supply and support situation and its morale is less than 75. If Die (75) is greater than the unit's morale than a gain for this situation is possible."

This rule greatly favors the Soviets initially (except for maybe the support situation), and the Axis later. Does this need tweaking?


"v1.04.10 - April 18, 2011
Adjusted the amount of morale a unit loses after a battle. Now units are not guaranteed to lose a morale point when a battle is lost. The higher a unit’s morale is over its national morale, the greater the chance the morale will be reduced when it loses a battle."

This rule change maybe having extreme consequences in the current patch - pleased reexamine this The Soviets need to lose some morale after losing every battle in 1941.

"v1.07.08 – May 6, 2013
Greatly reduced the chance that a unit below its national morale will receive the die(10% of national morale) increase in morale."

Does this need to be reduced more for the Soviets??? Should the chances be different for the different nationalities?


Now, another question: are these 3 effects additive??? Can a Soviet unit with a morale of 40, sitting in refit mode 10 hexes away from the closest supplied enemy unit receive a morale boost for each condition: 10 hexes away, in Refit 10 hexes from a supplied enemy unit and the 10% national morale boost?



Marquo

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 3:04:16 PM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		The morale rules also greatly favor the German Axis units: until their morale falls below 50, apparently no need to pull off the line to regroup to regain morale....

In effect this forces the Soviet to rotate units out of the line to regain morale...so is this really a problem or not?

This issue seems to be a problem for an Axis player wanting a quick victory in 1941...or early 1942. And I not judging this, only observing.



< Message edited by Marquo -- 7/24/2013 3:05:01 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:04:24 PM   
vinnie71

 

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Status: offline 		I think that one of the main problems with morale is that the Axis in general have very few elite units while the Soviets can create legions of them, if properly handled. Its quite easy to get guard status, especially for divisional and brigade size units, and by the beginning of '43, one can have a solid core of units that are in most cases, very difficult to stop. Thus the Axis, especially the Germans, actually need some high morale units to not only attack, but also to slow down or counterattack soviet penetrations, post 42/43. Let's face it, the Germans in real life had quite high morale until at least Bagration, and it was not that easy for the Red Army to break the front lines.

One other thing that always struck me as wrong, is the low morale of most Axis minor allies. The Finns were good, as were the Slovaks, while the Romanians, Hungarians and Italians were of variable quality. The Germans especially praised the Romanian cavalry divisions and the Alpini acquitted themselves very well in the retreat after Stalingrad (the original CSR had also fought well, possibly coz it was led by Messe). Of course there were collapses of morale but this was not as general a rule as it is often assumed.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:11:53 PM   
morvael


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Status: offline 		Remember that by the game's standard entire German army is elite in '41 and '42 - with base morale of 75/70 for infantry and 85/80 for the motorized units. I agree that Axis Minors are treated too harshly, that's why I proposed once at least a +5 bump to Hungarians, Rumanians, Slovaks and Italians. The Soviets on the other hand were high on morale from late '41 onwards, what they really lacked were proper tactics, experience, quality equipment, mobility and less bloody ideas in their High Command.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:13:27 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

The morale rules also greatly favor the German Axis units: until their morale falls below 50, apparently no need to pull off the line to regroup to regain morale....

In effect this forces the Soviet to rotate units out of the line to regain morale...so is this really a problem or not?

This issue seems to be a problem for an Axis player wanting a quick victory in 1941...or early 1942. And I not judging this, only observing.




Good points Marquo.

The issue is before 1.07 most GHC players stood a chance at taking Leningrad and getting close to Rostov and Moscow. Then the blizzard hits and most get smoked, but some learn and can then get to late 44.

As it stands now other then me and MT most guys cant get even close to historical and get burnt in blizzard and the SHC is driving west in the late summer of 42.

SHC can basicly get 75% of their forses to 50 morale by turn 4-6 and then its basicly a solid wall game set match. Not many GHC players have had to fight the 42 summer so they have no idea how to take out a wall of 50 morale units. Plus the other 5 or 6 things that can get a GHC player a draw atleast.

SHC NM is+( axis minors) 50.

Most GHC players have zero chance at getting to late 44. Not really much fun for most guys.

The P vs AI is great.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 7/24/2013 9:15:59 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:25:01 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

I think that one of the main problems with morale is that the Axis in general have very few elite units while the Soviets can create legions of them


Er, what? The Red Army never gets as good as the German army in 1941. "Elite" Soviet units in the late war might equal average German units in 41...around 80ish morale. You might go the whole war without seeing anything in the 90s.

The entire Wehrmacht is "elite" from the Soviet standpoint, at least in its 1941 incarnation. It spends most of the war trying to catch up to that.

In 1941-2 you will be extremely lucky to see a handful of "elite" Soviet units pushing 60 morale. On average, the Wehrmacht is clocking in up to 30 points more in morale in the first two years. Only in 1943 does the Soviet begin to close the quality gap, as the NM caps finally go up and German ones start declining.

All those guards rifle divisions you see early on? Yeah, they are totally substandard compared to a middling German infantry division. They are merely "elite" compared to the other Soviet rifle divisions. 55 morale if you are lucky and including the guards bonus. The cav can occasionally reach 60 early on.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/24/2013 9:31:12 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:33:38 PM   
vinnie71

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Remember that by the game's standard entire German army is elite in '41 and '42 - with base morale of 75/70 for infantry and 85/80 for the motorized units. I agree that Axis Minors are treated too harshly, that's why I proposed once at least a +5 bump to Hungarians, Rumanians, Slovaks and Italians. The Soviets on the other hand were high on morale from late '41 onwards, what they really lacked were proper tactics, experience, quality equipment, mobility and less bloody ideas in their High Command.



I mostly agree, except that morale went up for the Soviets only post Stalingrad in my opinion. Maybe one way to treat the Axis minors is to give them their elite units which can somehow gain better morale - like example the Slovak Schnelle Division, Romanian Cavalry divisions or the Alpini. Thus that would set them apart from the rest of their armies and make them valuable to an Axis player.

Re the Germans - well they were good and the bulk of their army was battle hardened already at the beginning of Barbarossa. However, the blizzard takes the heart out of the German army, destroying its elan, especially in the infantry. Frankly, my opinion is that German morale only went downhill after mid '44 when they were scraping the bottom of the barrel for recruits and defeat stared them in the face (while not counting the fact that units facing the Red Army used to fight at their best of their abilities up to the very end for obvious reasons). So national morale was quite separate from that of the army which retained its cohesion until the end of '44/beginning of '45. However, in game national morale and army morale are one and the same, and therefore one can't really reproduce such a situation.

I mean if the Germans/Axis were happily driving up to the Urals and beaten back the allies from Italy and France in 1944, do you really think that their national morale would have plummeted?????

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 9:42:24 PM   
vinnie71

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

I think that one of the main problems with morale is that the Axis in general have very few elite units while the Soviets can create legions of them


Er, what? The Red Army never gets as good as the German army in 1941. "Elite" Soviet units in the late war might equal average German units in 41...around 80ish morale. You might go the whole war without seeing anything in the 90s.

The entire Wehrmacht is "elite" from the Soviet standpoint, at least in its 1941 incarnation. It spends most of the war trying to catch up to that.

In 1941-2 you will be extremely lucky to see a handful of "elite" Soviet units pushing 60 morale. On average, the Wehrmacht is clocking in up to 30 points more in morale in the first two years. Only in 1943 does the Soviet begin to close the quality gap, as the NM caps finally go up and German ones start declining.

All those guards rifle divisions you see early on? Yeah, they are totally substandard compared to a middling German infantry division. They are merely "elite" compared to the other Soviet rifle divisions. 55 morale if you are lucky and including the guards bonus. The cav can occasionally reach 60 early on.




That may be true, but the soviets come together in corps. And even early version, 1942 corps, especially guard corps of infantry, cannot be simply pushed back. Thus, every little accrual of morale for the soviets, gets rapidly amplified, especially from late '42 onwards. An 80 morale Guards Corps would be essentially unstoppable, especially with the wimpy late war divisions that the Axis get.

Which is why high morale, elite formations are crucial in my opinion for the Axis.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/24/2013 10:56:56 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder
Re the Germans - well they were good and the bulk of their army was battle hardened already at the beginning of Barbarossa. However, the blizzard takes the heart out of the German army, destroying its elan, especially in the infantry.

That's not the entire truth. The experience and fighting ability of many division on 22nd June 1941 was actually worse than in May 1940, which is one significant contributing factor for the high German combat losses in the opening stages of the war (especially July and August 41). Reason for this rather surprising development is manyfold. One, the principle of cell division by which the Germans formed new divisions certainly had its advantages, but on the other hand destroyed the coherence of those forces that went to battle together in 1939 and 1940. They had to bond again with new recruits in those new divisions, which took its time.

Two, due to the quick enlargement of the Wehrmacht from 1935 onwards, the Germans had serious problems filling their formations with enough competent officers and NCOs. Even at this stage of the war, they literally had to take officers from the scrap heap to fill their needs (like reactivating older officers, employing candidates who failed the requirements or were excluded for some disciplinary reasons). So, of course this hampered the overall performance of the troops. Furthermore this was also a contributing factor for the mass dismissals of the Winter 41-42, as many officers (especially older ones) proved to be incapable of withstanding the physical and psychological challenges of the East Front campaign.

Third, in Autumn 1940 a number of divisions (18 infantry divisions to be exact) were sent on vacation, to provide a lift for the economy. General Fromm intended to recall them in January 1941 to train them for the upcoming Barbarossa campaign, but due to protests from the economy (and their political backers), ideological reasons, and other hindrances of the (inefficient) Nazi administration, those people were not recalled until March (in some cases even 1st May) 1941, leaving their training level at a point far from the desirable state.

Last but not least, the Germans suffered from the lack of enough trained conscripts. In that regard the Treaty of Versailles hurt Germany. The birthstrong age group from 1899 to 1913 only received a short training of two to three months. The age groups that were trained regularly in peacetime (1935 to 1938, and formed the backbone of those 1. Welle divisions) from 1914 to 1917 were small due to the Great War (until the beginning of Barbarossa the age group of 1918 to 1920 were also called in). As the army was enlarged, the quality of those new divisions dropped off.

In short, in reality in terms of quality the Wehrmacht was not stronger than 1940. It certainly benefitted from the gains in material in that timespan, but it barely kept up with the raising of the new divisions. For the War in the East Germany really needed a full mobilization of its human and economic ressources from 1940 on, but due to a number of complex reasons, this mobilization did not begin until 1942.

As for the blizzard and German fighting morale, actually the blizzard did not hamper the self-esteem of the common soldier. In fact, it helped the Germans cope with their defeat in front of Moscow. It always is easier attributing a loss to mighty nature, instead of the opponent. That's what the German soldiers did. They looked forward to a spring and summer offensive and generelly felt superior to the Red Army. Furthermore, their morale received a boost, which is hardly understandable today: Hitler taking over the Oberbefehl of the Heer and the mass dismissals of generals. During that time Hitler still lived off that myth created after the Fall of France. The soldiers viewed Hitler taking command very positively, along the lines of "finally the Führer got rid of those incompetent generals who blocked his genius". Where the events of the Winter 41-42 really had its negative effects was on the upper middle and upper levels. There the failure in front of Moscow really created the impression of a turning point of the war and coupled with the entry of the United States into the European war created two groups of people. The one group dived into the work in a fatalistic manner and reduced their activities to strict professionalism, while the other group began to take measures for resistance.

< Message edited by SigUp -- 7/24/2013 11:02:36 PM >

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Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 7/31/2013 10:01:07 PM   
STEF78


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Status: offline 		I've started a GC as GHC against Bozo.

He has a smart defense and amazing CV's!. I think I will do an even worse 1941 campaign than the one against Schascha.

During the last month I also began 3 games as SHC and my opponents gave up between turn 5 and 15. I think they were disappointed with their performance.

As you said, the morale engine is broken and except against new players the GHC has zero chance to achieve a correct 1941 campaign.

1.06.27 was more fun (even with the morale bug for the germans)

I hope this will be corrected soon

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/1/2013 4:17:37 AM   
bigbaba


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Status: offline 		very intresting read sigup and mostyl true.

german infantry in mid 41 was not at the same level of quality like the infantry divisions which attacked france in 1940.

but the hasty enlargment of the panzerwaffe brought (intended or not) better, smaller and more flexible panzerdivisions. by reducing the number of the tanks per division by neary 50% and adding more support units (artillery, AT, pioneer, more motorizied infantry) the panzerdivisions got better then the large and lesser flexible panzer formations of 39 or 40 which had up to 400-500 tanks.

about russian moral in 41 several german officers said in late 41 that the fighting in russia felt different then the fighting in france 1 year earlier. in france they had the feeling to invade a defeated country but in russia there was fighting everywhere. surely the red army sufferd a nearly deadly blow from stalins "great purge" which for example killed a lot of russian generals with the same visions and skill level like guderian&co. about modern tactics.

now about WITE: i am in a intense match against peltomn at the end of blizzard (january 42) with moral settings in favor of the germans and so far nearly all german units still have "green moral" while my best units (guards cavalery) got not higher then 60 although winning up to 20 battles.

soviet NM may be too high in 41 but we should not forget that the supply system of the game brings a big advantage to the axis player. just look at pelton with his optimized mix of fuel drops and HQ BU. thats lightspeed when compared with german panzertruppen in reality in 41.:)

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Post #: 290
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/1/2013 4:39:50 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Mobility means little when a brick wall is encountered that cannot be penetrated.

Also you need to think about 100/100, not 101/100. Despite some peoples downplay of it, it is a huge advantage in the current version. Any German worth his salt will have every XX at 86 morale or greater by Aug/Sept 41 and that is a huge benefit. People downplaying the effect of 101 in 1941 are just kidding themselves and not looking for a fair fight. It also negates the blizzard morale losses and some. Basically you will see a 1941 type German Army in 1942.

The final proof is in the pudding. 2by3 will tone down the 101 setting. You wait and see.

If they do tone it down then it may once again be a possible solution to Soviet morale in 1941. If 105 simply meant Axis NM was increased by 5 then I think it would be ok to use 105/100. But ATM 101 means you get at least a +1 to morale for every battle you win no matter how high your morale is.

I can confidently claim that given a 101 morale setting at start I would beat any Soviet player with ease. If not in 41 certainly by end of 42.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/2/2013 10:24:32 AM   
vinnie71

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp
As for the blizzard and German fighting morale, actually the blizzard did not hamper the self-esteem of the common soldier. In fact, it helped the Germans cope with their defeat in front of Moscow. It always is easier attributing a loss to mighty nature, instead of the opponent. That's what the German soldiers did. They looked forward to a spring and summer offensive and generelly felt superior to the Red Army. Furthermore, their morale received a boost, which is hardly understandable today: Hitler taking over the Oberbefehl of the Heer and the mass dismissals of generals. During that time Hitler still lived off that myth created after the Fall of France. The soldiers viewed Hitler taking command very positively, along the lines of "finally the Führer got rid of those incompetent generals who blocked his genius". Where the events of the Winter 41-42 really had its negative effects was on the upper middle and upper levels. There the failure in front of Moscow really created the impression of a turning point of the war and coupled with the entry of the United States into the European war created two groups of people. The one group dived into the work in a fatalistic manner and reduced their activities to strict professionalism, while the other group began to take measures for resistance.



Totally agree. Fact is that somehow morale remains low for the Germans (especially) following the blizzard and never recovers. Morale is too abstract a notion to be properly quantified. Which is why I would prefer to have 2 types of morale - one military and one national.

The military morale is directly linked to the units in the field - a victory enhances it, a defeat diminishes it. However, there shouldn't be tresholds in this case as elite units are not simply created from scratch - they may come on their own through their actions. For example, Grossdeutschland or the Brandenburgers or LSAH were intended to be elite units from inception. On the other hand, DAK, Viking division or several Gebirgs divisions came to be considered elite through their actions on the front. Thus the opportunity for a 'normal' division to become an elite formation should not be denied the Axis. In a way, it would mimic the Guards formations but without need for redesignation.

National morale should be something else, and should only affect the military in case of reinforcements or new or rebuilt formations. However, this should not be a static benchmark for a given year, but actually take into consideration several factors such as losses of personnel, ground gained or lost and the general economic situations (amongst other things). It should be dynamic - I mean its a bit ridiculous that if the Axis in '44 are romping around the Urals because they have crushed the red opposition, should have their morale reduced while the USSR should actually have their morale go up...

I know its impossible to impliment, but somehow, national morale should not be directly reflected in the military morale.

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 292
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/2/2013 1:54:09 PM   
SigUp

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
Status: offline 		I agree that this morale concept with all it's implications is a little too abstract. I would like to see an overhaul of the current morale and experience system. One, you still have morale, but this is morale only, meaning the will of the soldiers to fight. As such, Soviet morale is pretty high, indicating their desire to defend their home country and their tenacity to fight. Similarly German morale is also high. Morale for Axis allies, however, is low, showing their reluctance to die for Germany's objectives somewhere in the fields of Russia. Second, experience (or training) indicates the training level and combat experience for the units. In this case, freshly recruited Soviet units get a very low mark to show their minimal level of training, causing their massive casualties. Last but not least, the current two gets expanded by something like "organization". This portrays an units cohesiveness and the synergies between the subunits. German units get very high marks in 1941, Soviet ones very low. The lower the organization of a unit is, the higher is the chance of a rout (though the other two factors can alter the rout threshould, posivtively and negatively).

(in reply to vinnie71)
Post #: 293
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/2/2013 3:25:37 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1216
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp
I agree that this morale concept with all it's implications is a little too abstract. I would like to see an overhaul of the current morale and experience system. One, you still have morale, but this is morale only, meaning the will of the soldiers to fight. As such, Soviet morale is pretty high, indicating their desire to defend their home country and their tenacity to fight. ...


The convolution of moral, national morale, and "proficiency" right now is a bit weired indeed -- work in progress a learning curve, and it will hopefully change in future titles. One thing to note is that isn't going to be as easy as you say, though, and perhaps not unambiguous. In fact it could also be a debatte or ultimately a designer choice as so many other factors that can't be traced back easily. Remember for instance the Russian's use of political commisars to prevent the soldiers from retreating, fleeing -- commit a suicidal attack, or die from the political guards in your rear? That doesn't exactly imply a high will to fight for your motherland, and many Ukrainian or Baltic people initially viewed the Germans more as welcome change from Stalin's repressing hand. Difficult matter to model...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Mobility means little when a brick wall is encountered that cannot be penetrated.
...
I can confidently claim that given a 101 morale setting at start I would beat any Soviet player with ease. If not in 41 certainly by end of 42.


Interesting, I didn't even think of it. I considered this just a simple modifier, but not to change such rules below 120. So with Morale setting >100, morale gains upon victories are a given? How about morale loss upon a defeat, <100?

The brick wall issue, or more exactly the dropping behind the needed tempo to keep SHC off-guard and pushed, is more pronounced now since basically all the other parameters including fort-building have in the past patches been tuned to work with the unbeknown broken morale mechanics. I know it sounds easy to go back to the broken morale mechanics, but it is an odd idea to break a fix thing to get the overall more playable -- that is if this is truly needed, just as you said there.

Axis seems still to be able to push fast and hard, and things like maintaining/supplying an isolated of Leningrad are still unlikely or perhaps just impossible to reproduce. Actually the AARs but also single player vs AI appear to me to have benefited from the better SHC morale, you can now take a more aggressive, countering stance as SHC, and for the sake of balance should do so; with or without house rules as long as there is no WitE with proper rules, whatever. Especially if Axis refrains from a Lvov type opening, you can experience a tough mobile fight with AGS. Try it against AI, now you don't even need to crank up AI settings to 119 anymore, but 110 already gives it some more teeth and aggression. That seems ok, actually a step forward.

But now the blizzard penalties are definitely out of whack, and are the single most important, most hurting factor for Axis unless a general Sir Robin is accepted. Besides that, for the dynamics of the Barabrossa period one should now reconsider the fort building rates. Maybe the should be lowered until September, basically as long as the Russians did maintain an aggressive more than a defensive stance. Maybe they could even be reduced for 41 through to pretty much end of 42? That could enable more fluid situations, and would outbalance the better SHC quality?

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 294
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/7/2013 4:30:15 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Joel, any hint at what might be done to address this issue?

_____________________________


(in reply to janh)
Post #: 295
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/7/2013 5:58:13 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I should have some info to post by the end of this week.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 296
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/7/2013 8:37:10 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Ok, thanks.

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(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 297
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/7/2013 11:35:06 PM   
Anauso72

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline 		The ask is¿. We want an historical Gáme or not.? Actually germans have esteroids . Germans players want to win 41 or 42 but is not real.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 298
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/7/2013 11:43:57 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		No, they just want a fighting chance. German steroids ain't nothing compared to Soviet steroids, especially blizzard steroids.

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(in reply to Anauso72)
Post #: 299
RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/8/2013 1:15:10 AM   
Toidi

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 8/31/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I should have some info to post by the end of this week.


That is excellent news Joel. Thanks...

And good luck with the fix!

T.

P.S. I would humble suggest to think about rail transport of German divisions through neutral Romania on turn 1... That may need to be addressed too... As well as the conditions under which the Romania & southern Soviet units wake up. I do not think that the blitz in the south (being recent favourite Axis opening) is justified, Lvov extended pocket opening is honestly bad enough...

T.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 300
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