Defense against Raid won but still got looted?

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Defense against Raid won but still got looted?

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Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 12:27:22 AM

Keldun

Posts: 33
Joined: 8/13/2011
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Hello,
I just started playing dw shadows with patch 1.9.0.9 as an empire but I m not sure if some things are working as intended.
I have a colony with about 60 k troops defending about a 10k troop pirate raid.
Once I have repulsed their 10 troop they sometime get a bunch of materials or sometime even get to steal one of my tech even though they fled. Is that how pirate raid is supposed to work ? If so how can we stop from stealing at all ?

I have uploaded the save on the ftp named Weird pirate raid on ketaros 2 a.rar

< Message edited by Keldun -- 8/8/2013 1:35:56 AM >

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 4:29:01 AM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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Yes, it is intended that raids can succeed even if the pirate forces do not "win". They are not trying to invade the planet, just get some local victories to get away with their loot. The stronger your defense is, the less of a chance there is for a success and the less impressive the loot.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 6:39:05 AM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
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From: My Own Private Hell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes, it is intended that raids can succeed even if the pirate forces do not "win". They are not trying to invade the planet, just get some local victories to get away with their loot. The stronger your defense is, the less of a chance there is for a success and the less impressive the loot.

Regards,

- Erik

The question is though, how do they get away with their 'loot' if you have destroyed all the ships? This is what the main crux of the discussions on this subject are on here, if they have no ships left then they should not be able to get anything from the colony.
The amount of loot gained in a raid should be worked out from a base amount, for example, the pirates have stolen 100 items in a raid that was instigated by 10 ships, 9 ships were destroyed, 1 escaped, so that would then give the raiders 10 items from that raid (100/10), if all the ships had been destroyed then they would get no items. this would make it much more realistic and easier to envisage as at the start you have very little in the way of defense and the raiders would be getting 100% of the base amount most of the time, as the game progressed and the players defenses became better they could see the amounts dropping and the reports become less frequent regarding successful raids, this would add a feeling of growth and achievement on the players part, at present it is an annoying fact that these raids do not come across as anywhere near logical in the amount gained by the pirates.

Darkspire

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 8:25:52 PM

Keldun

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Joined: 8/13/2011
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Yes that looks pretty weird, once they are all dead how do they bring that tons of loot back tot heir base?

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 9:56:03 PM

Erik Rutins

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From: Vermont, USA
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Our rationalization was that even if the pirate ships left the area or were destroyed during the raid, the pirates would go to ground somewhere on the planet until they could be picked up again or find a way off on a smuggler's freighter. A planet is a pretty big place and the pirates are good at what they do. I think it's reasonable though that they should end up with less loot if they don't have ships nearby. I believe we already have an adjustment based on "space control" around the played, but I'll add to the request list to make sure we're taking that sufficiently into account.

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 10:11:06 PM

Bingeling

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I would work a bit on improving those messages. If they does get away with some stuff, the defense did not win. It is more of a draw.

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 10:17:00 PM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Our rationalization was that even if the pirate ships left the area or were destroyed during the raid, the pirates would go to ground somewhere on the planet until they could be picked up again or find a way off on a smuggler's freighter. A planet is a pretty big place and the pirates are good at what they do. I think it's reasonable though that they should end up with less loot if they don't have ships nearby. I believe we already have an adjustment based on "space control" around the played, but I'll add to the request list to make sure we're taking that sufficiently into account.

That was what I thought initially on the subject and put forward on one of the various discussions on here. The only flaw in the logic is that as a planets population grows and the empires tech increases in ground defense there should be less chance of a pirate raid being successful, the security forces on a planet should scale with the tech and population to decrease the chance, giving a feeling that you are winning on the ground against them. In all of my current games towards mid to late game they still seem to be getting away with raids in roughly the same frequency as at the start of the game, even though I bolster all ground defense tech as a priority it currently just does not seem effective against the raiders frequency of loot gains.

Darkspire

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/8/2013 11:10:21 PM

Kayoz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
That was what I thought initially on the subject and put forward on one of the various discussions on here.

One thread here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Our rationalization was that even if the pirate ships left the area or were destroyed during the raid, the pirates would go to ground somewhere on the planet until they could be picked up again or find a way off on a smuggler's freighter.

Fairly easy to imagine on some po-dunk outlying colony world, but far less easy to accept on a fully developed and maxed population world. To say nothing of the presence of a port and defence bases in orbit, which would very significantly increase the difficulty of smuggling goods off planet. And let's not consider the war fleet in orbit...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I believe we already have an adjustment based on "space control" around the played, but I'll add to the request list to make sure we're taking that sufficiently into account.

Not much of an "adjustment". The adjustment, as far as I can see, only affects the combat - thus the pirates' chance of winning. It does not affect their chance of getting loot even in the case that they are wiped out by the planet's defenders in a single combat tick.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 8/8/2013 11:35:55 PM >

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/9/2013 7:56:51 AM

Darkspire

Posts: 1986
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
One thread here.

There is not just the one thread, there are quite a few at a quick browse ...

Here's another

The other threads discuss pirate raids but turn to include the defense of colonies, from past experience I try not to make too many mistakes in my reply posts to yourself, so I will leave the links for those

One of my initial salvos on the subject, when I was just taking the losses WAD, due to the updates appearing quite frequently it was difficult to hit a good mid to late game point and I was not seeing the bigger picture.

quote:

Once I have the tech outlined in my previous post and the facilities start appearing on the colonies I still get the odd one or two that are successful, but to me it seems about right, I think everyone here is tending to look at this situation as ground troops vs ground troops, it isn't, it is about colony ground troops vs pirate raiders, they perform covert attacks and smuggling attacks for a living, it makes sense that a few will get away with some cash or resources even with a well stocked out colony ground troop, raiders create a diversion and a small ship evades detection and manages to steal some credits and / or some resources, makes sense to me. You only have to look at sci-fi movies to see how many times a small ship gets through an overwhelming force and scores a victory, like the Millenium Falcon, I personally think the balance is about right at present.

There is one point though that does not seem to have been brought up anywhere and that is the message that a pirate smuggler is trying to leave one of your colonies and that I should send a ship to intercept and destroy, is this supposed to be the raiders trying to escape with the loot? I can never tell as they are destroyed before I can get to respond to the message and there has never been any mention of them in any of the update notes.

Darkspire

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 8/9/2013 8:05:28 AM >

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RE: Defense against Raid won but still got looted? - 8/9/2013 2:29:21 PM

ReadeB

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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In the situation where no pirate ships can retrieve looted goods after a raid, maybe the resources/credits raided should go into a hidden pirate cache on the planet.

Then there could be a race between local forces trying to find the cache(s) and pirate smugglers trying to retrieve it. Local troop generals could assist in the recovery and hidden pirate bases/fortresses and other pirate factions could challenge for control of the loot.

Might be a cool dynamic.

Related - shouldn't space battles generate salvage opportunities? Uncontrolled caches of resources that smugglers and locals can fight over?

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Post #: 10