RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/8/2013 1:18:51 AM

Michael T

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Yes I agree, rail thru Rumania before they activate should be nerfed.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/8/2013 8:09:11 AM

Gabriel B.

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Except Romania was not neutral , that is why you can bomb soviet airbases in turn 1.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?language=en&article=4

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/8/2013 3:24:01 PM

mktours

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In fact, you could not rail to Romania in T1, the rail was blocked in the border of Hungry, but one could load the troops on train, so they could reach romania with more Mp left in T2, and could have full MP in T3 as they has been unloaded from train in T2. Attacking from Romania before T3 isn't a good idea as it release the soviet troops there one turn earlier than the German troops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toidi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I should have some info to post by the end of this week.

That is excellent news Joel. Thanks...

And good luck with the fix!

T.

P.S. I would humble suggest to think about rail transport of German divisions through neutral Romania on turn 1... That may need to be addressed too... As well as the conditions under which the Romania & southern Soviet units wake up. I do not think that the blitz in the south (being recent favourite Axis opening) is justified, Lvov extended pocket opening is honestly bad enough...

T.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/8/2013 3:32:01 PM

mktours

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In my opinion, attacking from Romania before T3 isn't a good idea as it release the soviet troops there one turn earlier than the German troops. better wait for T3, so it is not a sneak attack, but a reinforced attack only, but would do more damage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Yes I agree, rail thru Rumania before they activate should be nerfed.

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Post #: 304

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/8/2013 4:47:22 PM

Gabriel B.

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If ags is heavily reinforced from Agc , it is very hard to outrace that, except maybe by rail .

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/4vh5.png/

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Post #: 305

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/8/2013 11:59:03 PM

mktours

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the shortcoming of heavily reinforce AGS with 2PzG is that if the SHC react correctly, it could steady the situation and would benefit from it in the long run.
my suggestion for the SHC against this is to guard the Dnepr as the first line, no matter what the situation is in the west of the river, move as much troops as one can to the east bank of the river in T1, try to hold the Dnepr line as much as possible.
there is no need to nerf this opening, it is a double edge sword for the GHC.

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Post #: 306

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 2:12:50 AM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

the shortcoming of heavily reinforce AGS with 2PzG is that if the SHC react correctly, it could steady the situation and would benefit from it in the long run.
my suggestion for the SHC against this is to guard the Dnepr as the first line, no matter what the situation is in the west of the river, move as much troops as one can to the east bank of the river in T1, try to hold the Dnepr line as much as possible.
there is no need to nerf this opening, it is a double edge sword for the GHC.

The entire first turn is deeply silly as is, and this makes it even sillier.

It's utterly indefensible. If you have a shred of historical integrity, you'd want to see it go. The south ought to see, and never does, a series of encounter battles and a grinding forward progress by AGS. This simply does not happen and Axis players have gotten so used to this preposterous state of affairs that the original Lvov opener is seen as being quite tame and they are now trying to leverage the badly designed surprise attack to bag two entire Fronts before they even activate.

It's dumb and gamey and has nothing to do with a historical wargame. Gamers and min maxers are killing the integrity of this design. It's very sad.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 4:28:10 AM

darbycmcd

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I tend to agree with you. It is a problem. I wonder why this game community is so different from the WitP one. There I think players are looking for a MORE historical game experience. Players there have house rules to be more true to life, and have a general philosophy that playing in an historical way gives a more satisfying game experience. Any calls for changes are backed by, you know, evidence. Something about the East Front topic brings a more "game-ist" oriented player base. Like the current call for morale changes. Now maybe it is justified, I am not sure. But there hasn't been ANY use of historical precedent to justify it, just game play.

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Post #: 308

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 5:40:34 AM

mktours

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Flaviusx,
The point is, this opening does have its shortcoming, I believe MT and Saper222 could both defend it properly, I could defend it properly as well. If the SHC do correctly, then 2PZG would be locked in the south for a long time, and this is not good for the GHC in the long run.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

the shortcoming of heavily reinforce AGS with 2PzG is that if the SHC react correctly, it could steady the situation and would benefit from it in the long run.
my suggestion for the SHC against this is to guard the Dnepr as the first line, no matter what the situation is in the west of the river, move as much troops as one can to the east bank of the river in T1, try to hold the Dnepr line as much as possible.
there is no need to nerf this opening, it is a double edge sword for the GHC.

The entire first turn is deeply silly as is, and this makes it even sillier.

It's utterly indefensible. If you have a shred of historical integrity, you'd want to see it go. The south ought to see, and never does, a series of encounter battles and a grinding forward progress by AGS. This simply does not happen and Axis players have gotten so used to this preposterous state of affairs that the original Lvov opener is seen as being quite tame and they are now trying to leverage the badly designed surprise attack to bag two entire Fronts before they even activate.

It's dumb and gamey and has nothing to do with a historical wargame. Gamers and min maxers are killing the integrity of this design. It's very sad.

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Post #: 309

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 5:57:53 AM

Flaviusx

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My point is not that there are responses to it or that it can be managed.

My point is that the whole thing is ridiculous and ahistorical. So is the first turn in general. It floors me that more people aren't disturbed by this, but there it is. I don't insist on perfect historicity, but this isn't even a close call.

Balance is not and never has been my primary concern with this game. It's not an mmo. It's not even a freewheeling strategy game a la Civ 5. It is, or purports to be, a historical wargame, one of very deep complexity and detail, and I have certain expectations for a game of this sort. This kind of game should at least plausibly and reasonably approach the actual war it seeks to portray. What's going on here is so far off that and so clearly an artifact of game design gone awry combined with players who are more concerned with "winning" than anything else, that it cannot possibly be defended.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 7:40:53 AM

Gabriel B.

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I would not do it, becuse i want all PG 2 armor in the center, but for fun I tried that opening playing against myself .

Personaly, I think the soviets should fight there as foward as posible , streching german infantry to breaking point trying to fill the gap behind the panzers.

< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 8/9/2013 7:41:32 AM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 12:01:55 PM

Gunnodayak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

My point is not that there are responses to it or that it can be managed.

My point is that the whole thing is ridiculous and ahistorical. So is the first turn in general. It floors me that more people aren't disturbed by this, but there it is. I don't insist on perfect historicity, but this isn't even a close call.

Balance is not and never has been my primary concern with this game. It's not an mmo. It's not even a freewheeling strategy game a la Civ 5. It is, or purports to be, a historical wargame, one of very deep complexity and detail, and I have certain expectations for a game of this sort. This kind of game should at least plausibly and reasonably approach the actual war it seeks to portray. What's going on here is so far off that and so clearly an artifact of game design gone awry combined with players who are more concerned with "winning" than anything else, that it cannot possibly be defended.

I completely agree with you, and it's a pity that some things are the way they currently are, because from many points of view this game is getting closest possible to my idea of a very good WWII strategy game simulation. I may be wrong, but I believe that with some good will from the developers, some things can be corrected (Lvov pocket, morale issue, etc.).

< Message edited by Gunnodayak -- 8/9/2013 12:02:59 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 1:12:49 PM

PMCN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

My point is not that there are responses to it or that it can be managed.

My point is that the whole thing is ridiculous and ahistorical. So is the first turn in general. It floors me that more people aren't disturbed by this, but there it is. I don't insist on perfect historicity, but this isn't even a close call.

Balance is not and never has been my primary concern with this game. It's not an mmo. It's not even a freewheeling strategy game a la Civ 5. It is, or purports to be, a historical wargame, one of very deep complexity and detail, and I have certain expectations for a game of this sort. This kind of game should at least plausibly and reasonably approach the actual war it seeks to portray. What's going on here is so far off that and so clearly an artifact of game design gone awry combined with players who are more concerned with "winning" than anything else, that it cannot possibly be defended.

The first time I saw an AAR with this my thought was "any german general who proposed this would be shot." My view on playing a historical wargame has been and will always be if the answer to the question "would this work in real life?" is "not on your effing life" then what are you doing it for?

The point is to re-create the situation that existed and to enjoy the challenge of experiencing (at second hand) the difficulties experienced managing the combat not to find gamey ways to "win" in my view.

I tried once playing War in the East (the PC precurser to this one) PBEM...when I found that the entire DAK had been re-equipped with italian self propelled coffins I stopped. I don't want to play fantasy battles, or fantasy general...I want a simulation of the east front or the pacific front or what have you. I don't want tactics II with blue fighting red.

Consider this just support for your point of view. Frankly because you can do something in a game like this is not always a justification for actually doing it.

< Message edited by Paul McNeely -- 8/9/2013 1:14:10 PM >

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Post #: 313

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 2:45:53 PM

Bozo_the_Clown

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quote:

The point is to re-create the situation that existed and to enjoy the challenge of experiencing (at second hand) the difficulties experienced managing the combat not to find gamey ways to "win" in my view.

This is one way of playing the game. But I don't understand why so many people are trashing Axis players who try to think out of the box. Playing the game your way is fine but in my opinion it gets boring very quickly. Why not adept to the Axis strategy and come up with a counter? Isn't that what the game is all about.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 2:58:32 PM

gingerbread

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There is a counter strategy: Run.

That's why there are so many posts about Stopping the run, Making the Soviets fight forward, Freezing the factories, etc.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 3:20:07 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

The point is to re-create the situation that existed and to enjoy the challenge of experiencing (at second hand) the difficulties experienced managing the combat not to find gamey ways to "win" in my view.

This is one way of playing the game. But I don't understand why so many people are trashing Axis players who try to think out of the box. Playing the game your way is fine but in my opinion it gets boring very quickly. Why not adept to the Axis strategy and come up with a counter? Isn't that what the game is all about.

I'm sure there is a counter to it. But at this point we've moved on to a fantasy game, not a historical wargame, and my own sense of immersion will be gone. None of what's going on is believable to me.

What's boring imo is this entire dynamic the game has fallen into: blow up the south as the Axis, the Soviets run like hell until mud. The Germans run like hell in the blizzard. Yawn. Not historical and not very interesting. There's no tension here at all, it's become rote and predictable without even the saving grace of knowing that you are experiencing the same flow of events that happened in real life.

Gamers and simulationists just won't see eye to eye here, plainly.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 5:35:42 PM

Schmart

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I agree with Flavius that there can be a bit too predictable and too much gaming the system in WITE. I think that the biggest factors that need to be nerfed for 2.0 are the Lvov opening and the horribly unrealistic 1941 panzer drives by some players, and the Russian carpet defence along with the ability to maximize a fantasy Russian Army.

Players should absolutely have options and not be forced into little historical boxes. However, real life events/decisions have pros and cons, and some of the standard strategies now have little negative effect. In reality, a Lvov pocket may have been plausible, at the expense of severely limiting AGC supply for months. One Panzer Army might be able to get east of Moscow in Aug 1941, but only by stripping all transport from the other 3 Panzer Armies. The Russians might have been able to put together a smart co-ordinated defence in depth in 1941, had there been no political interference. The Russian Army OOB might have looked different if Zhukov had sat in an office the whole war instead of in the field saving Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad. There just doesn't seem to be that "gee, if I do this I will suffer that" strategic option feel to WITE.

Part of the problem with as complex a game as WITE is that there can be a lot of gamey loopholes to close...

< Message edited by Schmart -- 8/9/2013 5:51:31 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 6:03:34 PM

EisenHammer

Posts: 440
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
My point is that the whole thing is ridiculous and ahistorical. So is the first turn in general. It floors me that more people aren't disturbed by this, but there it is. I don't insist on perfect historicity, but this isn't even a close call.

Balance is not and never has been my primary concern with this game. It's not an mmo. It's not even a freewheeling strategy game a la Civ 5. It is, or purports to be, a historical wargame, one of very deep complexity and detail, and I have certain expectations for a game of this sort. This kind of game should at least plausibly and reasonably approach the actual war it seeks to portray. What's going on here is so far off that and so clearly an artifact of game design gone awry combined with players who are more concerned with "winning" than anything else, that it cannot possibly be defended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

But at this point we've moved on to a fantasy game, not a historical wargame,

This is the way I feel about it. And also the reason way I don't really play it anymore.

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 318

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 8:30:33 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
My point is that the whole thing is ridiculous and ahistorical. So is the first turn in general. It floors me that more people aren't disturbed by this, but there it is. I don't insist on perfect historicity, but this isn't even a close call.

Balance is not and never has been my primary concern with this game. It's not an mmo. It's not even a freewheeling strategy game a la Civ 5. It is, or purports to be, a historical wargame, one of very deep complexity and detail, and I have certain expectations for a game of this sort. This kind of game should at least plausibly and reasonably approach the actual war it seeks to portray. What's going on here is so far off that and so clearly an artifact of game design gone awry combined with players who are more concerned with "winning" than anything else, that it cannot possibly be defended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

But at this point we've moved on to a fantasy game, not a historical wargame,

This is the way I feel about it. And also the reason way I don't really play it anymore.

I still do, but only against the AI. No Lvov. No running. No silly house rules.

Till I get bored and go back to Civ5

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken - 8/9/2013 10:52:30 PM

SigUp

Posts: 1062
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

I agree with Flavius that there can be a bit too predictable and too much gaming the system in WITE. I think that the biggest factors that need to be nerfed for 2.0 are the Lvov opening and the horribly unrealistic 1941 panzer drives by some players, and the Russian carpet defence along with the ability to maximize a fantasy Russian Army.

Players should absolutely have options and not be forced into little historical boxes. However, real life events/decisions have pros and cons, and some of the standard strategies now have little negative effect. In reality, a Lvov pocket may have been plausible, at the expense of severely limiting AGC supply for months. One Panzer Army might be able to get east of Moscow in Aug 1941, but only by stripping all transport from the other 3 Panzer Armies. The Russians might have been able to put together a smart co-ordinated defence in depth in 1941, had there been no political interference. The Russian Army OOB might have looked different if Zhukov had sat in an office the whole war instead of in the field saving Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad. There just doesn't seem to be that "gee, if I do this I will suffer that" strategic option feel to WITE.

Part of the problem with as complex a game as WITE is that there can be a lot of gamey loopholes to close...

You are forgetting that horribly unrealistic 1941 blizzard. Actually I think WITE against the AI with some house rules for the human player is a very enjoyable game. In my current game I had a very realistic 1941. The only drawback was the blizzard, I set Soviet morale at 60, for me to be able to defend forward. But below 110 the AI lacks aggressiveness, so it did nothing in the Moscow sector, despite its units being more than enough to push me far back. On the other hand on 110 I would have been forced to run, which would be even more ridiculous. Oh, and the combat system needs a revamp. It's ridiculous to see post-43 Soviet combat victories. Losing only 1000 out of 100.000+ while the German loses 1200 out of 10.000 men with regularity.

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Post #: 320

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/9/2013 11:58:29 PM

EisenHammer

Posts: 440
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
My point is that the whole thing is ridiculous and ahistorical. So is the first turn in general. It floors me that more people aren't disturbed by this, but there it is. I don't insist on perfect historicity, but this isn't even a close call.

Balance is not and never has been my primary concern with this game. It's not an mmo. It's not even a freewheeling strategy game a la Civ 5. It is, or purports to be, a historical wargame, one of very deep complexity and detail, and I have certain expectations for a game of this sort. This kind of game should at least plausibly and reasonably approach the actual war it seeks to portray. What's going on here is so far off that and so clearly an artifact of game design gone awry combined with players who are more concerned with "winning" than anything else, that it cannot possibly be defended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

But at this point we've moved on to a fantasy game, not a historical wargame,

This is the way I feel about it. And also the reason way I don't really play it anymore.

I still do, but only against the AI. No Lvov. No running. No silly house rules.

Till I get bored and go back to Civ5

The thing is, I'm not sure the AI can take all the rules changes that been made to the campaign game so far. The last time I played as the Germans against the Russian AI on challenging difficulty I quit playing after the Russian winter offensive. Because there was no Russian winter offensive. And I knew I won the game already.

I am thinking about trying a game that's closer to the original design. Like version 1.03 or something and see how it is after the Russian winter offensive. Can't be as bad as it is now were there is no winter offensive.

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Post #: 321

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/10/2013 4:46:39 AM

Flaviusx

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I recently tried a solo game on 125/100 as the Sovs...but it was like stealing candy from a baby. I wiped out an entire panzer group by turn 10 and kind of lost interest after that.

I may need to go all the way back up to hard and not only give the Germans steroids, but tie one arm behind my back on 85. The last time I tried that AI gave me real problems.

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Post #: 322

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/10/2013 6:17:35 AM

Joel Billings

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Any experienced player that wants to be pushed should be playing the game at Hard. Challenging should be just that for casual players that have gotten familiar with the game, but for the vets, it's going to be too easy. Also, remember that the attacking side, especially one attacking with finesse and not numbers is going the be harder for the AI to play, so the play level has to be boosted even more when playing against the German AI in the early years. With the appropriate amount of help given your skill level we think the computer can put up a decent fight.

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Post #: 323

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/10/2013 7:22:05 AM

EisenHammer

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I think the best way is probably to have one scenario that's setup for single player and another that's setup for multiplayer.

I want the Russian to counterattack in 41 even if it a total fail. I want to see the Russian do human wave attacks that wear down German units.
I want the Russian to surround German troops into pockets in the winter of 41/42 and the entire front line is in total chaos as the Germans try to hold out in a last stand fight or relief operation.
I want the Russian to have a chance to surround and destroy AG Center in battle and not just push the Germans back in the south. I want the Germans to recover in the spring and summer of 42. And launch a major offensive. But not along the entire front.
I want the unending Russian costly counterattack and offensives of 42. I want the war to go back and forth.
I want.
I want.
I want.

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Post #: 324

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/10/2013 8:12:26 AM

mktours

Posts: 712
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good point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

The point is to re-create the situation that existed and to enjoy the challenge of experiencing (at second hand) the difficulties experienced managing the combat not to find gamey ways to "win" in my view.

This is one way of playing the game. But I don't understand why so many people are trashing Axis players who try to think out of the box. Playing the game your way is fine but in my opinion it gets boring very quickly. Why not adept to the Axis strategy and come up with a counter? Isn't that what the game is all about.

(in reply to Bozo_the_Clown)

Post #: 325

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/10/2013 10:56:26 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I recently tried a solo game on 125/100 as the Sovs...but it was like stealing candy from a baby. I wiped out an entire panzer group by turn 10 and kind of lost interest after that.

I may need to go all the way back up to hard and not only give the Germans steroids, but tie one arm behind my back on 85. The last time I tried that AI gave me real problems.

Realise this is dependent on your own abilities but using these settings:

By the start of the winter campaign season in late 1944, the main front is:

In addition, in Hungary I'm at the gates of Budapest.

The AI has gone through a number of shifts. In 1941 it was over-aggressive but very hard to fend off, in 1942 it collected 60-70% of its Panzers in a single sector, and drove me back badly (and had picked my weakest sector). The only problem was it chose to put all this effort into a grand campaign to take Cherepovets and Rybinsk. In 1943 it shifted to a very effective mobile defense with the Panzers well back and acting as a firebrigade (reserve activation) as well as being aggressive if I stuck my nose out too far.

1944 was a bit of a disappointment as its been running for most of the year - but I think it overdid the commitment to defending all its gains in 1943.

Having said that, at the moment its heading for a draw/minor victory - depends on how much I can gain before the mud sets in again.

ignore this image - it just seems to be needed to make the rest show

as a small grumble, it would help if the forum software supported the usual html for embedding images from a hosting site

< Message edited by loki100 -- 8/10/2013 11:07:40 AM >

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Post #: 326

RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/10/2013 2:16:24 PM

Flaviusx

Posts: 7750
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From: Southern California
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Interesting, but I think I need to actually handicap myself. Those slightly custom settings aren't much different than an across the board 125.

The problem is, the AI's flank security is kind of lax and I know how to set traps for it. It will drive its motorized units right into situations where they can be trapped, surrounded, and destroyed. It is indeed hyperaggressive...that is perhaps the issue.

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< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/10/2013 2:39:44 PM >

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/10/2013 2:37:37 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Interesting, but I think I need to actually handicap myself. Those slightly custom settings aren't much different than an across the board 125.

The problem is, the AI's flank security is kind of lax and I know how to set traps for it. It will drive its motorized units right into situations where they can be trapped, surrounded, and destroyed. It is indeed hyperaggressive...that is perhaps the issue.

my logic was this was my first full campaign and, from the Soviet side, I wanted a default baseline that I could work from to what to expect in PBEM (hence the 100s down my side).

I do think the AI is too aggressive, or maybe needs a 'mud-warning'. The good thing in 41-2 was it went hunting for weak spots and exploiting them mercilessly. The bad thing was this over-rode any other concept, hence that impressive 1942 summer offensive was in the far north - when a conventional southern strategy or an attritional battle for Moscow would have been better choices.

The problem with the aggression in 1941 was its final breakthrough around Bryansk put 3-4 Pzr and Mot divs into my rear - dislodged most of my HQ and airbase network - but they were abandoned in a sea of mud, giving me an easy cull once their CVs had dipped.

I was very impressed though when for the first 3 blizzard turns the AI did a neat 2 hex fall back across most the front.

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/12/2013 12:30:36 AM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
My point is that the whole thing is ridiculous and ahistorical. So is the first turn in general. It floors me that more people aren't disturbed by this, but there it is. I don't insist on perfect historicity, but this isn't even a close call.

Balance is not and never has been my primary concern with this game. It's not an mmo. It's not even a freewheeling strategy game a la Civ 5. It is, or purports to be, a historical wargame, one of very deep complexity and detail, and I have certain expectations for a game of this sort. This kind of game should at least plausibly and reasonably approach the actual war it seeks to portray. What's going on here is so far off that and so clearly an artifact of game design gone awry combined with players who are more concerned with "winning" than anything else, that it cannot possibly be defended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

But at this point we've moved on to a fantasy game, not a historical wargame,

This is the way I feel about it. And also the reason way I don't really play it anymore.

I still do, but only against the AI. No Lvov. No running. No silly house rules.

Till I get bored and go back to Civ5

The thing is, I'm not sure the AI can take all the rules changes that been made to the campaign game so far. The last time I played as the Germans against the Russian AI on challenging difficulty I quit playing after the Russian winter offensive. Because there was no Russian winter offensive. And I knew I won the game already.

I am thinking about trying a game that's closer to the original design. Like version 1.03 or something and see how it is after the Russian winter offensive. Can't be as bad as it is now were there is no winter offensive.

I play the Sovs :) . Maybe 1.03, or whatever the setup version is would be better AI wise?

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RE: Please fix Soviet morale in 1941, its broken. - 8/12/2013 1:45:01 AM

EisenHammer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
I play the Sovs :) . Maybe 1.03, or whatever the setup version is would be better AI wise?

Maybe... I don't know.

It takes so long to get to the winter turns. And so many other games I want to spend time on like Strategic Command AoD and Civ 5.

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