Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Yes me remember.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

I am reading both sides here so will not make any comment that could compromise anything. I think there is a clear distinction between game play and game mechanics which hopefully you two can help to resolve. If its a case that you have a way of getting the transports in and out that is realistic and possible then its up to your opponent to figure it out. If its a case that transports cannot be stopped then that is a situation that is unrealistic. You will be doing us all a service if you can discover which it is.


Roger

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

I had the impression than transport intercepts often resulted in aborting the mission, and therefore reducing the amount transported. I believe this is what the "transport to... intercepted" means, some aircraft had to turn back before they could deliver their load.

It might be interesting to sandbox this, and see whether transport move less troops around in the presence of enemy CAP, and maybe whether float planes (which are less constrained in terms of approach, I think) suffer less than regular planes.

Francois

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Not sure this is the case. In my other PBEM game (latest official patch) I had a 1 plane transport group intercepted and it still transported a fragment of a unit.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: wallentin

Im reading both of your AAR... and both are like an alternative history for me... sometimes more interesting because now have a chance to look inside both commenders' deep thoughts.

About the airlifting. In smallscale is good, but that is totally unrealistic as you use. Some kind of arial Dunkirk. Can u imagine when ten thousand japanise soldier waiting for plane on the beach. And hunderds patrols are tring to dock to some kind of improvized infrastructure. Without air cover, they are parking there for hours? And what about the equipments?

If u suggest a HR: arial transport can be used only from starting base. They have to sit there and u have to defend them while moving stuff.

Anyway thx the AAR

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Not sure this is the case. In my other PBEM game (latest official patch) I had a 1 plane transport group intercepted and it still transported a fragment of a unit.....

Hi Speedy,

I think it still makes sense, as a transport can be intercepted on its way in, or after it is done unloading (or the other way around if it is picking up troops). That was my impression, anyway.

@Wallentin: it is far from an aerial dunkirk: load capacities are pretty low, so you need quite a while before you can ferrry a unit out of some base (losing all the heavy equipment in the process). And again, you get a lot of fatigue , and you need an airfield, or a port, in decent condition.

Francois

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Not sure this is the case. In my other PBEM game (latest official patch) I had a 1 plane transport group intercepted and it still transported a fragment of a unit.....

Hi Speedy,

I think it still makes sense, as a transport can be intercepted on its way in, or after it is done unloading (or the other way around if it is picking up troops). That was my impression, anyway.

@Wallentin: it is far from an aerial dunkirk: load capacities are pretty low, so you need quite a while before you can ferrry a unit out of some base (losing all the heavy equipment in the process). And again, you get a lot of fatigue , and you need an airfield, or a port, in decent condition.

Francois

But not if the 1 plane was shot down whilst picking up the troops but still managed to transport a fragment of the unit to Cairns

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

How many squads do you get out every day with your 300 planes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: wallentin

I see. You are using mostly land based transport.

But in this case i think u have to use some kind of AF stacking HR.

"An airfield can operate 50 single engine (or 25 two engine, or 12 four engine) planes per AF size
or 1 group per AF size. The best Air HQ of the same command as the base which is within range
can add its command radius to the number of groups that can be administrated, or if not in the
same command, the nearest HQ will add ½ its command radius to the number of groups."

But it seems me unrealistics. Land and launch almost 20 airgroup and almost 300 plane per day on a level 6 AF.
I know, you have 13th Air Fleet on the base which can help organize the evacuation. But this seems me impossible mission. In Normandy 44 there were a few month to plan the logistic issues.

I think u can evacuate (or move in/out like did earlier) the troops, but not combat ready. Like Dunkirk. The game is working different way... and need a good HR to handle this gap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
It all depended on the damage levels of the fields, or at least it seemed to. I truly wasn't looking that closely to know exactly how many were moving each day. I was only loading up all of them for the division at first. I don't even remember when this really began. I'll have to check.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
It all depended on the damage levels of the fields, or at least it seemed to. I truly wasn't looking that closely to know exactly how many were moving each day. I was only loading up all of them for the division at first. I don't even remember when this really began. I'll have to check.

Tracker makes this easy. Load the turns (if you don't load every turn, just start a new tracker, and load the turns Jocke sent you, day by day), go to the LCU tab, sort by base, and then for all the units you're evacuating, click history. This should work. You will be able to find (in the base tab, under history) daily runway/field damage.

I think this is worth te analysis, because you have a lot of planes ferrying your units. A squad being about a dozen men, I believe your 300 planes should be able to move a lot of squads every day (all of them are transports, after all, so it is certainly more than a squad per plane...), so if you moved like 100 squads a day, the effect of airfield clutter and enemy CAP is ^proven, and I think everything is legit.

300 transports is a lot of planes...

Francois

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: wallentin

I see. You are using mostly land based transport.

But in this case i think u have to use some kind of AF stacking HR.

"An airfield can operate 50 single engine (or 25 two engine, or 12 four engine) planes per AF size
or 1 group per AF size. The best Air HQ of the same command as the base which is within range
can add its command radius to the number of groups that can be administrated, or if not in the
same command, the nearest HQ will add ½ its command radius to the number of groups."

But it seems me unrealistics. Land and launch almost 20 airgroup and almost 300 plane per day on a level 6 AF.
I know, you have 13th Air Fleet on the base which can help organize the evacuation. But this seems me impossible mission. In Normandy 44 there were a few month to plan the logistic issues.

I think u can evacuate (or move in/out like did earlier) the troops, but not combat ready. Like Dunkirk. The game is working different way... and need a good HR to handle this gap.

I count 223 wheeled transport and 35 flying boats.

Again, it might not be 'a' level 6 field. This is meant to approximate the use of several fields in some cases. I live in the London area. The 'hex' here would have had about 10-12 fields in it. Maybe more. Definitely a size 10 complex.

Dunkirk and Normandy were on an epic scale much more grand and incredible than this. We're talking about one shattered division, at about 40% strength, being lifted without most of it's machinery and bigger guns (destroyed in several retreats earlier). A few even more shattered brigades, (only one of which is fully out now, minus guns), and elements of construction, base forces and support units so they can have a core unit to start from if destroyed here when the Allied masses arrive and knock us back again.

Jocke is telling me I've moved 25k troops. I'm not sure its that much. Still way off the several hundred thousands for Dunkirk and more for Normandy. Lets not forget that that was a highly contested hex and the port was too damaged to use! Amazing.

In the nine days from 27 May – 4 June 338,226 men escaped, including 139,997 French, Polish and Belgian troops, together with a small number of Dutch soldiers, aboard 861 vessels (of which 243 were sunk during the operation). Liddell Hart says British Fighter Command lost 106 aircraft dogfighting over Dunkirk, and the Luftwaffe lost about 135 – some of which were shot down by the French Navy and the Royal Navy; but MacDonald says the British lost 177 aircraft and the Germans lost 240.

The docks at Dunkirk were too badly damaged to be used, but the East and West Moles (sea walls protecting the harbour entrance) were intact. Captain William Tennant—in charge of the evacuation—decided to use the beaches and the East Mole to land the ships. This highly successful idea hugely increased the number of troops that could be embarked each day, and indeed at the rescue operation's peak, on 31 May, over 68,000 men were taken off.[14][31]
The last of the British Army left on 3 June, and at 10:50, Tennant signalled Ramsay to say "Operation completed. Returning to Dover." However, Churchill insisted on coming back for the French, so the Royal Navy returned on 4 June in an attempt to rescue as many as possible of the French rearguard. Over 26,000 French troops were lifted off on that last day — but between 30,000 and 40,000 French soldiers were left behind and forced to surrender to the Germans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I don't think the Red Air Force had that much effect at Stalingrad

It was more operational losses, the sheer distance to fly and that was made worse when the Russians captured the airbase at Tataskya (spelling?) that the vast majority of aircraft were flying from.

If you can't evacuate your heavy weapons, and you've spent a large section of your economy in building up the transport fleet, then I can't really see a problem with it.

EDIT though if LRCAP is massive, I can see why Joc is getting frustrated, though the explanation you've given (land as dusk/dawn, fly in and out low and in twilight/dawnlight) is perfectly acceptable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I can see the problem - as the allies would know exactly where the airfields were & transports are easy enough to shoot down (with their slow speed), not to mention slower still when loaded....if a couple of hundred allied aircraft can't massacre a bunch of basically "stationary" transport aircraft, there is a real problem with the way this is modeled.

quote:

But it seems me unrealistics. Land and launch almost 20 airgroup and almost 300 plane per day on a level 6 AF.