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Right to Privacy? - 8/14/2013 9:46:28 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/14/google-gmail-users-privacy-email-lawsuit

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RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/14/2013 11:17:41 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline 		I you don't have anything to hide...who cares! If you want privacy you have meet face to face...much better odds!

Patrick

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/14/2013 11:30:25 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline 		Looking forward to the future and being arrested for "thought crimes"

(in reply to wings7)
Post #: 3
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/14/2013 11:38:16 PM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Looking forward to the future and being arrested for "thought crimes"


The future has already arrived

Predictive policing

If that goes ahead you are likely to get arrested for anything they care to conjure up, the test area over here is already up in arms over it.

Darkspire

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Post #: 4
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 12:40:24 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

Looking forward to the future and being arrested for "thought crimes"


The future has already arrived

Predictive policing

If that goes ahead you are likely to get arrested for anything they care to conjure up, the test area over here is already up in arms over it.

Darkspire


Care to quote the article where they arrest people for what they are thinking? All I saw was a means to GUESS where to send resources. And it is pretty much a guess at 6 percent success rate.

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 5
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 2:01:26 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline 		anyone that assume any “Board Of Directors” can be trusted with their privacy is an idiot, every time you let a clerk scan your id they store ‘n mine your personal info .

apparently our civil rights had an expiration date when we entered the computer age, try rifling through someone’s mail box based on the justification you're company manufactured the mail box and see what happens ………..

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Post #: 6
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 3:17:30 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

anyone that assume any “Board Of Directors” can be trusted with their privacy is an idiot, every time you let a clerk scan your id they store ‘n mine your personal info .

apparently our civil rights had an expiration date when we entered the computer age, try rifling through someone’s mail box based on the justification you're company manufactured the mail box and see what happens ………..



The "store ‘n mine" action is all about commerce (trying to sell you stuff) and that's a predominate trait of a capitalistic society. It is annoying but we have the power to say no or delete the solicitation...it's all about freedom of choice, legal choice that is!

Patrick


(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 7
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 3:48:10 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		Times are changing, and I’m guessing private industry is taking their lead from the recent government constitutional violations involving the IRS and NSA. For many decades I’ve been an ATT phone customer and have always chosen the opt out method to prevent them from gathering my info and selling it to the highest bidder.

Recently they sent me a letter stating their privacy policy has changed. They offered me two choices (direct targeted data or regionally targeted data), neither of which allows me to preclude them from gathering data on me. Basically what they’ve told me is since the government can gather whatever info they want on me now they are going to do it too and I have no way out other than to cancel my phone service.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Now that the Obama administration has opened the flood gates by ignoring constitutional law, I guarantee they will take as much of our rights to privacy away from us as they can. It won’t be long before they pass a law requiring we comply with their demands for our private info, say goodbye to your freedoms.

I mean common, what right does the IRS have to demand to know what you pray for or what books your read? If they’re willing to go that far right now with current law (albeit non-enforced law) in place, give it a few years and they’ll be demanding to know far more than that. And as long as there’s a buck to be made private industry is more than happy to go along as ATT’s recent letter proves.

Jim


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Post #: 8
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 4:12:08 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Not gonna get into a political argument here, but "Now that the Obama administration has opened the flood gates by ignoring constitutional law" is not historically accurate. Government data mining goes back to Eisenhower.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 9
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 4:52:58 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		I agree it has always been a battle between the people and the government to maintain our rights, but what is happening now is simply unprecedented in our history. Every phone call has been recorded by the government and all internet activity is also recorded.

When I was active in law enforcement getting a phone tap warrant was the hardest warrant to obtain, you needed serious probable cause proving criminal malice to convince a judge that all conversations that occurred on a single phone line should be recorded. Now every single American has basically had their phones tapped by our government for years and you want to try and justify this by pointing to bad behaviors from the past?

I’m sorry but this is dangerous stuff. The proof is in the fact nobody in power from either side wants to give it up. They are all clamoring for the power to stay in place stating it helps combat terrorism, but no one can point to one instance where a serious credible attack was thwarted.

The fact they went after political donor lists using the IRS should send chills up any Americans spine. Do you really think they didn’t then go in and listen to the phone conversations of their political enemies they got from the IRS lists looking for dirt? This is the kind of stuff that starts civil wars and leads to dictatorships.

Once they take something from you they will never give it back. Right now they are busy taking away our privacy rights, soon they’ll go after other rights too. Stop thinking about this like it’s a team sport, there are no good sides and bad sides. It’s simply the government wanting total control over the people. It doesn’t matter who is in charge when it happens once they get control, it will never be given back without a fight.

Jim


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Post #: 10
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 5:19:58 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1447
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline 		Right on the money Mr. Burns! The slogan now is: "If you are not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear!" I've seen this written on these very forums.Forty years of "war" on this and that has created a police state,with more people incarcerated than oppressive totalitarian countries! God protect the constitution, because our government won't.

< Message edited by vonRocko -- 8/15/2013 5:20:49 PM >

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 11
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 6:13:24 PM   
Blond_Knight


Posts: 1031
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline 		Whenever I hear people say: "If your not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear." Or "I have nothing to hide." Im reminded of this poem about how the Nazi's came to power.

First they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.




< Message edited by Blond_Knight -- 8/15/2013 7:34:57 PM >

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 12
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 6:15:26 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		"but what is happening now is simply unprecedented in our history. Every phone call has been recorded by the government and all internet activity is also recorded. "

This has been happening for at least 8 years that I know of, since things changed from a mechanical switch to a software switch. Also, the calls are not recorded, the numbers are. Recent changes have allowing monitoring of keywords, but no one in their right mind is saving all calls. And you internet activity has been monitored since the Search Engine became common use. That is not freeware, that data is how places like Yahoo & Google make their insane amounts of money.

Not that I don't agree that privacy is a thing of the past. But to blame it on one person or one political party is not valid, or correct. Instead, look to who benifits, and who funds these political parties. Your not paranoid if their really IS people out to get you ( in this case, your information).

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 13
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 8:58:38 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		You’re still trying to deflect the issue and blame someone else. The Obama administration is the current steward in charge of defending the constitution. They have been caught red handed flagrantly violating constitutional law and using the power of the government to oppress political thought and speech. They publicly say they want to hold people accountable and stop the oppression, yet they do nothing and no one has been charged or arrested.

The speeches condemning their own acts of oppression are simply political showmanship designed to placate loyal apologists into not questioning their methods and policies. Blaming the past or trying to deflect the issue away from their criminal behavior simply serves their purposes and shows you’ve been fooled into believing their lies.

The Bush administration got things rolling with the new laws that expanded government power, but no one in history has ever done things nearly as egregious as this administration has when it comes to taking away constitutional freedoms and I’m only speaking about what we know for sure they’ve done. I guarantee there are far worse things they are doing we have no idea of right now.

quote:

Also, the calls are not recorded, the numbers are.


Sure that must be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. After all they told you it was true in a speech right?

Jim


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Post #: 14
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 9:05:09 PM   
Qwixt


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		I read on yahoo! news a week or two ago, that some black vans showed up at a house because the mom googled pressure cookers, and the dad was looking at backpacks.

http://news.yahoo.com/google-pressure-cookers-backpacks-visit-feds-140900667.html


< Message edited by Qwixt -- 8/16/2013 5:49:16 AM >

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 15
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 9:56:44 PM   
Darkspire


Posts: 1986
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: My Own Private Hell
Status: offline 		Guess the tin foil should be brought in large quantities now then, good job I have this and its tin foil lined

Darkspire



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Post #: 16
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/15/2013 11:05:50 PM   
DSWargamer

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline 		You have lost a lot more than just your privacy, and that is likely the thing that I think requires the most concern.

When I think of 'home of the brave' I am wondering, brave? they seem more like sheep, and 'land of the free', and I am wondering free? really?

I am not saying Canada is several orders of magnitude better than the US, but I will say this much, we have a lot less crap to deal with up here.

But the internet has no borders, and that is perhaps the hardest lesson for society to deal with. All the rules based on borders, were designed for physical borders.

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Post #: 17
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 3:52:25 AM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline 		Part of the problem is technology is so relatively new that laws simply don't exist regulating what can and cannot be monitored or used.

As an example.

There are very strict rules pertaining to what kind of information can be given out over the phone. For example certain things are considered CPNI so for example at least according to the way my employer handles the laws around it, you cannot call into this cellphone carrier and get information about specific numbers, dates and times phone calls are placed. If you want that information you have to be in person in a store with a photo id to get a print out of the data, time and number you yourself called or at which someone called you. The content of a Text message(the actual words sent) cannot be provided under any circumstances without a subpoena and is deleted from our servers after about a week or two (simply to many to store, it would take up to much space, and I believe though I could be wrong, the FCC requires the info be deleted after a maximum of around 90 days)

Picture messaging and data sessions however can be shared over the phone because the laws that were written preventing specific phone call info or text messages from being given out does not pertain to "data" and there really hasn't been any change in those laws in 10+ years since the smartphone and mms (multi media messaging) services have become common place.

This all pertains more to individuals than governments as we all know Government has played by a different set of rules over the last 11 years but its still worth considering most of the technologies that we feel are invading our privacy are all relatively new compared to more "traditional" media and thus regulations around them are not nearly as hashed out as per say land-line phone calls or other older technologies. Furthermore it also contrasts quiet dramatically the way most virtual data is handled where sites like Ebay plainly admit they never delete your data ever.

(in reply to DSWargamer)
Post #: 18
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 6:35:34 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		It’s not as simple as trying to blame all the new technology, it’s the administration’s willingness to lie and break the law that is driving the downfall of our privacy rights. In a recent audit interview a FISA court judge revealed he has no actual authority to over-see the spying operations by the NSA. He relies solely on what the government tells him and in one case they didn’t even mention a new spying program for over half a year from when it was put into operation. It was later found to be unconstitutional. And of course if the government is lying to him he has no actual oversight ability at all and is simply a puppet figure put in place to placate those who have questions.

Here’s an article from the Washington post that spells out a lot of what has been found out so far, thousands criminal violations by the NSA a year, of course the administration is blaming typos and PC errors.

And for those who believe it’s just phone numbers and email addresses they are collecting here’s a quote from the article:

quote:

In what appears to be one of the most serious violations, the NSA diverted large volumes of international data passing through fiber-optic cables in the United States into a repository where the material could be stored temporarily for processing and selection.

The operation to obtain what the agency called “multiple communications transactions” collected and commingled U.S. and foreign e-mails, according to an article in SSO News, a top-secret internal newsletter of the NSA’s Special Source Operations unit. NSA lawyers told the court that the agency could not practicably filter out the communications of Americans.


The last sentence spells out the current governments stand on protecting constitutional rights. I guess they simply find it too irritating to protect our rights so they didn’t even bother to try…

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 8/16/2013 6:37:17 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 7:10:17 AM   
Rodia


Posts: 123
Joined: 9/19/2012
Status: offline 		I agree with critics. Obama is a T-Rex in sheep's clothing.

And I plan to delete my gmail account (with Google+ attached to it) as soon as I can. "Don't be evil" was Google motto, so far.


(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 20
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 1:59:21 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline 		Wanted to chime in quickly before the lock : I'm in 100% agreement with everything written by Mr Jim D Burns in this thread

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx


(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 21
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 2:27:13 PM   
DSWargamer

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline 		A 'right' is only worth as much as you are willing to pay to keep it.

As I see it, and after having watched too many news items connected to too many modern issues, too many people are simply too disinterested in sacrificing their personal comfort for anything they can't really put a finger on.

That, and I have yet to see anyone ever object to anything until it impacts their wallets. The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less. It doesn't even matter whether the something is worth anything in the long term. The average North American has no interest in anything any further in the future than their next pay check. The day will come when the US again votes, and the sad truth is the person they vote in, will be using this against the voting public.

If your problem can't be solved in under 4 years, there's no point in mentioning it, no one is going to pay to have it fixed.

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Post #: 22
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 3:18:39 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less.


Sorry? Don't you mean they really care? In that case it should be ..."they couldn't care more."

Is this the inverse of the mysterious way Americans say "I could care less", when they really mean "I couldn't care less"?

Cheers, Neilster


< Message edited by Neilster -- 8/16/2013 3:19:30 PM >

(in reply to DSWargamer)
Post #: 23
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 4:36:03 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline 		All you gentlemen (and ladies too) have made some good points and not so good points on the Right to Privacy issue. Talking about it is very important and after all the discussion we need good, honest and selfless people to get involved to change things for the better...being a public servant is something we all the have the freedom to do.

Patrick






(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 24
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/16/2013 8:05:08 PM   
DSWargamer

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/25/2010
Status: offline 		No actually I used the expression correctly (really irks me when someone mangles famous expressions routinely).

Everyone is all for a cause, right till the moment they have to pay for it.

Two common examples, all the comments directed at our fav to hate Walmart, until it comes to actually paying more to buy made in North America, then suddenly it's back to Walmart for lowest price possible and who cares what's involved.

Or oil, everyone hates being subservient to the Middle East, but why do we continually buckle under at the pump? Because no one wants to pay a penny more than forced to. It is not really important to anyone the moment it costs them something.

Everyone loves to scream and rant about the evils of China, but, we sure like to buy our junk from them, because they can take our raw resources and make it into our things and ship it to us for less than we can do it all from right here by out own people.

The average North American consumer, well the words I'd like to use are extremely offensive.

Privacy, the average person gladly sells their privacy for a song. I don't think the average joe nobody even has the right to whine any more.

Privacy would be simple. Get rid of your computer, ditch your cell phone, cut up your credit cards, cancel anything that in any way has you connected to the world's communication net. Go back to paper currency paid for in person, and enjoy hobbies that are in no way connected to the internet.

Privacy was easy when I was young. All I had to do was close the door to my home.

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Post #: 25
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/17/2013 12:18:29 AM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline 		I know it's not your point DSW but some of those sterotypes are wrong.

Many things in Walmart are made in China, not nearly all. The file cabinate I just purchased there was made in the USA with American Made steal in it.

China makes a lot of things but not nearly all. The USA is STILL the 2nd largest manufacture in the world and only lost the title of #1 in 2011 or 2012 I can't remember which.

Many things made in China are really not made there, they don't take our resources per say (for some goods anyway). A perfect example is the iPhone. Which at least until the last version had it's LCD screen and it's CPU made by Samsung in Texas those parts are BY FAR the most expensive and valuable parts of the iPhone, the screen and CPU would be made in the USA and then shipped to China where they were assembled and shipped back but the vast majority of the value of the phone was actually still made in the USA.

US Steal production in 2012 while now about 70% of it's peak in the 1960s is still routinely producing the same tonnage as it was in the mid 1970s. The jobs have not gone overseas nearly as much as they have been eliminated through automation.

Oil: China is Saudi Arabia's #1 consumer, the VAST majority of US oil actually comes from Canada and what doesn't come from there comes from Mexico. In fact my friends dad works for a company which imports oil from Canada, blends it into high grade lubricants and then ships it all over the world, including exporting a huge portion of it to China and Europe.

What I think all of what I am saying gets at is more to what I think you're underlying point is, the world is truly global in a way we've never seen. Made in the USA or China or whatever often has lost its meaning as the parts of the assembled product originate everywhere, the same can be said about privacy. When you are in such an interconnected web there is no such thing as domestic privacy because the companies you're purchasing from, and interacting with are all over the globe. Governments all over the world have very feasible and relatively easy means of obtaining information on pretty much anyone anywhere.


(in reply to DSWargamer)
Post #: 26
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/17/2013 6:32:54 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less.


quote:

No actually I used the expression correctly (really irks me when someone mangles famous expressions routinely).


DSWargamer, If someone couldn't care less, they care incredibly little about something, when you actually mean they care a lot.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to histgamer)
Post #: 27
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/17/2013 8:59:39 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

The moment something actually costs them anything, they couldn't care less.


quote:

No actually I used the expression correctly (really irks me when someone mangles famous expressions routinely).


DSWargamer, If someone couldn't care less, they care incredibly little about something, when you actually mean they care a lot.

Cheers, Neilster


I think he ment that they care a lot about it but if it costs money then they do not bother to pay up hence they couldn't care less if it is a cost.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 28
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/17/2013 9:31:44 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Ok.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 29
RE: Right to Privacy? - 8/18/2013 6:44:32 AM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline 		I have to agree with Jim D. Burns. We have people lying every day in front of Congress. I know Congress lies all the time, too, but that is not an excuse to lie about something. When I'm told our phone calls aren't being monitored or every hurdle is carefully used to make sure the technology is not being used incorrectly, then we get a report not a month later saying exactly the opposite is true, I have to wonder what the hell is going on.

To me this isn't politics. This is our lives we are talking about. My cousin and I talk all the time about how is it all worth it, or would our lives be better if we opened a bar on a beach somewhere like in the Caribbean.

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 30
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