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Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 2:24:05 PM

steamboateng

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I'm playing Dec 8 Full Campaign, with the latest Beta and using Sardukar's set-up as a general guide.
I know this topic has been discussed many times, but perhaps it can be revisited in light of Michael's excellent work and player experience over the years.
Pros and Cons: Pull them out of Singapore; what consequences?
Leave them in Singapore to stall for time?

On another note; I have recently finished The Admirals by Walter R Bornman. I picked the book while on an extended vacation up to Cow Hampshire; to assist me through the long non-party New England evenings.
Once started, I couldn't put the book down, it's a very easy read, written in an almost conversational style. It covers the careers of the WWll five star Admirals; Leahy, King, Nimitz, and Halsey. While I can't say I've discovered any profound new insights into these WWll rock stars, the book did provide a view into their inter personal relationships with one another, based on their Naval Academy roots, as well as their direct effect on WWll Naval Policy.
Of particular interest was the author's treatment of Halsey, reviewing his actions at Leyte Gulf and the two typhoons his command suffered through.
Throughout the book, FDR plays a pivotal role in all these men careers; and all play a likewise role in his presidency.
This book is no shoot 'em up description of the Pacific War. It covers Naval Policy and Strategy on the grand scale. But it is no treatise on military strategy either. It's more of a 'Who's Who' in the decision making hierarchy that defined the Pacific War as we know it.
If your a reader getting weary of the foxhole view of Japanese Bonzai attacks, or tired of chasing Zero's across the sky, or bored of long watches on the bridge; take a break and let this book take you to Tehran and Casablanca and the salons and drawing rooms of London and Washington; and even an occasional look into the Admiral's quarters on WWll's most famous fighting ships.
A very good read.
Regards

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 3:14:00 PM

witpqs

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I usually get them out. If you do they (the division they rebuild) is very useful for the rest of the war.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 3:40:34 PM

Canoerebel

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It depends. I'd leave them in Singers if I was facing a new or intermediate level player. If I was facing a crackerjack, I would have a harder time making up my mind. By the way, the pros and cons of this (referring to Singers in general, not the Australian units in particular) has been debated fairly extensively in http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3387020&mpage=2&key=

Bottom line: I want to hold Singers as long as possible if doings so stymies, frustrates, and impedes Japan and gives me an advantageous position to attrit Japan's forces. I'll glady keep the Aussis there if doing so buys me a month or two or three.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 5:36:54 PM

steamboateng

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I am, as usual, humbled to receive replies from two of WitP AE's brightest stars. I went immediately to the posts you referenced Canoerebel. Still, I'm locked in indecision, regarding Singapore.
While I agree with some, that these two Brigades are the backbone of Singapore's ground defense; I can't help but consider their importance in defending Darwin or even Port Moresby from a quick Japanese assault.
It's still early in my newest game, and I don't have the PP to transfer them to a new command. But they are under The Malaya Army ABDA command. Do I even need PP's to pull them out? Shouldn't I be able to get them to board ship because they are under ABDA command?

Canoeing: an off topic commentary to Canoerebel.
Early this summer, it was with great regret that we finally sold our canoe. It has been hanging around, propped on a pair of sawbucks for many years, in the yard out back. That old plastic Coleman had quite a history with us. I bought it many, many years ago, when the kids ages were still in single digits. In our annual summer camping jaunts, often lasting a full 6 weeks, that canoe found its way to many a lake and stream. From Maine to Florida to western Kentucky it served well our recreation and fishing impulses. While inventorying its accoutrements for the new owner, including real wooden paddles, I came across two small floatation jackets, plastic whistles still attached..............I almost reneged on the deal............too many fine memories of good times past...........I had to turn my face and walk away..........I let Mamma finish the negotiations.
This summer, while vacationing at Massanutten (near the Blue Ridge Mts in Virginia) I insisted on a canoe trip on the lazy Shenandoah. Of course all those good memories came back. Enjoy it while you have the time and energy.
Regards

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 5:46:53 PM

obvert

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From the Japanese player perspective, if you keep them at Singapore and force the IJA to use a big hammer, you also may keep them from second tier objectives. I believe in two strong defensive points for the Allies in the DEI. One is by default Singers. The other is up to you. Palembang, Batavia, and Koepang are the top three that would worry me as a player on the Japanese side.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 5:48:14 PM

Lokasenna

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They are in a subcommand of ABDA, and the subcommand is restricted. So you would have to transfer them to ABDA. That actually costs only 1/4 the PPs as you are transferring them "within the command".

It is actually a method I would recommend for using some Australians from the mainland to reinforce areas like Port Moresby and the Solomons or New Hebrides area, by using the I Australian Corps which is unrestricted but within the Australian Command.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 5:49:19 PM

Canoerebel

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Port Moresby isn't even important in the game. Either side can concentrate there to make it important, but it's not significant. Any Japanese player that can't take Darwin either isn't trying or is new to the game (okay, there may be exceptions, but not many). Singapore, on the other hand, is a ready-made fortress controlling/dominating one of the most important choke points on the entire map. Why would any Allied player give it up when it cries for a stout defense? (Under limited circumstances I might do a Sir Robin from Singers, but when I do, you guys will know it's an implied admission from me that I'm facing an opponent who I think is much better than me.)

I still have four canoes, of which I can use three. My kids are rapidly nearing the ages where they're gone, but I sure hope I'll have another twenty or twenty-five years to paddle (and perhaps thirty or thirty-five to backpack). I know what you mean, though. Two years ago yesterday I took my oldest child - daughter - to college. That was the hardest day of my life (though in a sweet and proud way) thus far.

P.S. Do NOT yield Singapore unless your opponent is alot better than you; and, heck, even if he is, that may be a good reason to use it to you full advantage. PM and Darwin aint ready-made fortresses. Singers? Yeah.

P.P.S. I'm not a bright AE star, although compared to newbs, I do at last have enough experience to know a little now. But I think about the real "plank owners" of the game - and a few prodigies - and shudder at the thought of facing them. I still think it's possible for Japan to earn an auto victory in Scenario Two. I did my dead level best to arrange a match where I could unforuntately prove it, but I failed to entice any elite players to take on the challenge, drat it.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/23/2013 5:50:16 PM >

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 9:44:06 PM

geofflambert

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CR, are you implying Darwin should be taken? I don't know what for and am not planning on it.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 9:57:18 PM

Canoerebel

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If Japan doesn't attend to business and the Allies do, Darwin is a potential nightmare. It's tough to supply now, but why make a present to the Allies of a base with massive potential? It doesn't take Japan much to take Darwin. Once taken it's hard/risky for the Allies to retake until late '42 or even well into '43 even if only modestly garrisoned. Darwin is poised right on the Japanese vitals. For some reason, players give utmost attention to places like Noumea, Port Moresby, and Tarawa, which are poised right on the edge of nowhere, but fail to attend to places with real value, like Darwin. (All of this is my own subjective and humble opinion, of course; but to that, I'm entitled until the government takes it by condemnation.)

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 10:53:03 PM

pws1225

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quote:

I still have four canoes, of which I can use three. My kids are rapidly nearing the ages where they're gone, but I sure hope I'll have another twenty or twenty-five years to paddle (and perhaps thirty or thirty-five to backpack). I know what you mean, though. Two years ago yesterday I took my oldest child - daughter - to college. That was the hardest day of my life (though in a sweet and proud way) thus far.

Congratulations Dan, you have almost graduated into full manhood. Nothing is more honorable or fullfilling than seeing your children take their place in the world, fully capable and prepared, knowing you have done what you could to get them there. When the last one leaves the nest, you can happily paddle for as long as you are able knowing that you have done what you can to secure their (and our) future.

Best regards, Paul

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 10:59:52 PM

JeffroK

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Do you intend a speedhump or a roadblock?

If you leave the Aussies in Singapore , defend the base properly. Get the reinforcing Indian Bdes and 18th Div into the base and squeeze every ounce of supply there as well. The DEI has plenty to spare as well as lots of small ships (Even fly it in from Palembang)

Otherwise get them out.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 11:13:19 PM

rockmedic109

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Supply is the key to Singapore. You will loose Singapore in the kitchen instead of being beat on the battlefield. Keep running small ships from Palembang and Java to it. And if you loose half of them doing so it is worth it. And if the Dutch complain, make sure they realize that whatever is trying to take Singapore isn't knocking on the door to Batavia or Soerabaja.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/23/2013 11:42:50 PM

crsutton

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Since you now can buy them back and rebuild them, my inclination would be to leave them there and hold Singapore as long as possible. Like said get as much supply to Singapore as you can. Singapore falls when the supply is used up.

Holding Singapore for another three weeks is much more important that rebuilding that Australian Div and it saves you critical PP if you opt not to save them. There are other Aussie unit you can build up to division strength and with the pitiful replacement rate for squads and devices, you will be hard pressed to use any more than four to five divisions outside of Australia anyways.

Like a kid in a candy store, I purchased back all Australian, Indian and British units lost in the early months. But in the end, you will never rebuild all of them.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/24/2013 2:33:33 AM

geofflambert

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My general advice is don't land any of the several units in transit by sea at the start to Rangoon, Singapore, Palembang or Java but send them to India. If you do send them to any of the above (not India), you are committed and should follow through. If you load them on ships for evac. they may be sunk and lost in their entirety.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/24/2013 3:30:47 AM

zuluhour

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cr, I agree. I played my first campaign and sent them to their destinations. I held in the DEI MUCH longer than the last two. The time was worth the price.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/25/2013 1:04:40 PM

dr.hal

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I find this topic of great interest as the defending of Singapore is one of those early pivotal decisions that will impact the course of the game for the remainder of play. Clearly there are pros and cons. I think if one is playing purely historically, the defense of the island city is a "given" as the Brits saw it as the "Rock" of the east. However I was thinking that in the very long term view of the game, Singapore is not something worth the sacrifice. I keep on thinking of keeping my electronic soldiers there "just to buy time" for other places and coming to the conclusion that I don't want to "throw them under the bus" so to speak. I pull out all that I can so that they can defend places that, to me, will be much more decisive in the longer run of the game. I can't see Singapore being held against the Japanese for the entire game, the Japs simply have to much to begin with. And I know this is going to sound like gaming, but like all of us, I know what the future holds in terms of "stuff" and plan accordingly. I feel there is a much better chance in the long run to hold other key positions for the remainder of the game and that's where I send the troops. As others have pointed out, Darwin, very much a sideshow in the real war, seems to be exceedingly valuable in this game. It is in the "middle" of the board and is the gate way to Oz. It can be a launching point to the allied player or the Jap player. So that is one point to "harden" as the allied player. But without the barrier islands to the north, that's difficult as folks point out Darwin is hard to supply. So the next consideration is how to "protect" Darwin. The Aussie troops are important here. However on the other side of the board is Port Moresby, also another pivotal place. Here too is another good landing spot for the Aussies. I know a lot of players say that it is a "sinkhole" but again it is a launching point and important to both sides and can be held for the entire game. So to me pulling the troops out of Singapore is a "no brainer" from a very long terms perspective. This would make Churchill roll over in his grave... but that's how I see it! Hal

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 8/25/2013 2:17:56 PM >

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/25/2013 1:30:28 PM

Q-Ball

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Having played Japanese a few times, Singapore is vitally important. As such, as Allies I defend it with everything I have, including the Aussie Brigades. I would absolutely leave them, and as someone else said, get all other good combat units down to Singapore ASAP. Leave enough troops behind to stop para drops and make the Japanese walk, but that's it. (as well as a strong force at Mersing to hold the door open for a week or two). Get in additional supplies.

As crsutton points out, you can also rebuild them. Unless the Australian Army is in heavy combat in 1942, you should have enough infantry to re-build the 8th Australian Division, in addition to upgrading and rounding out all the Aussie militia units.

But can't stress enough the importance of Singapore. As Japan, you should be committing 4 divisions at a minimum, and 5 to make sure. Better safe than sorry.

Conversely, I feel Luzon is a waste of time in early 1942. Unlike Singapore, Luzon can easily be left behind to rot and taken later. You need to land on Luzon and drive the Allies back into Manila/Clark, but after that, just leave enough troops to bottle-up the Americans, and go elsewhere. Once you stop expanding the perimeter, you have plenty of ground troops to reduce Luzon, and by then they'll be out of supplies and easy pickings.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/25/2013 2:35:52 PM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

From the Japanese player perspective, if you keep them at Singapore and force the IJA to use a big hammer, you also may keep them from second tier objectives. I believe in two strong defensive points for the Allies in the DEI. One is by default Singers. The other is up to you. Palembang, Batavia, and Koepang are the top three that would worry me as a player on the Japanese side.

Obvert nails the prime fear I always deal with in starting any campaign. Stay AWAY from my OIL!

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/25/2013 4:30:27 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Having played Japanese a few times, Singapore is vitally important. As such, as Allies I defend it with everything I have, including the Aussie Brigades. I would absolutely leave them, and as someone else said, get all other good combat units down to Singapore ASAP. Leave enough troops behind to stop para drops and make the Japanese walk, but that's it. (as well as a strong force at Mersing to hold the door open for a week or two). Get in additional supplies.

As crsutton points out, you can also rebuild them. Unless the Australian Army is in heavy combat in 1942, you should have enough infantry to re-build the 8th Australian Division, in addition to upgrading and rounding out all the Aussie militia units.

But can't stress enough the importance of Singapore. As Japan, you should be committing 4 divisions at a minimum, and 5 to make sure. Better safe than sorry.

Conversely, I feel Luzon is a waste of time in early 1942. Unlike Singapore, Luzon can easily be left behind to rot and taken later. You need to land on Luzon and drive the Allies back into Manila/Clark, but after that, just leave enough troops to bottle-up the Americans, and go elsewhere. Once you stop expanding the perimeter, you have plenty of ground troops to reduce Luzon, and by then they'll be out of supplies and easy pickings.

Well it is not so much the squads as there are a lot of small Australian units that can eventually be disbanded but it is devices. The average Indian division and Australian division goes through many expansions during the war and even with moderate combat and losses you will never have enough devices to meet the needs of both Armies. I am well into 1945 and just upgraded my last Indian division from the obsolete 18 pounders to the 25. I am majorly short of 3 inch mortars, 40 mm bofors guns, bren piat units, six pounder AT guns. I have too many Australian divisions with too few devices. Not to mention that the British divisions and Canadian and New Zealand brigades all used pretty much the same devices. Many players have not gone this deep into a campaign so are not aware of the pitfalls.

Be careful and don't waste PP and resources rebuilding divisions that you will never be able to fully equip. Rebuild them only when you are sure you will have the devices. That means you need to pay attention to upcoming upgrades and expansions to your existing units. Devices matter and a big division with a shortage of devices can actually be quite weak.

I think I have actually only rebuilt one Indian division from my total early war losses. Many others were partially rebuilt but I ended up disbanding the units to use the squads and devices elsewhere. In 1945, I am not short of divisions. If I had to do it all over again, I doubt that I would have rebuilt any of the lost infantry divisions. It was too taxing on my device pools. Now base forces and engineers are another story. Rebuild every one of them. And rebuild any American unit.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/26/2013 6:47:18 AM

SBD

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Very interesting discussion. My view is that how strongly to defend Singapore is mostly a matter of playing style. But since several players have made a convincing case for defending strongly I'll add an argument for pulling stuff out. One result of doing so would be that Singers would fall faster but you'd have more stuff to defend Darwin & other key locations. Another result would be that the Japanese player would be able to secure the DEI more quickly & move on to the next operation.

But what should that "next operation" be? I remember reading some opinions on the forum that grandiose adventures into India or Oz may be a strategic mistake, overextending the Japanese forces & economy, & ultimately making them more vulnerable to the Allied counterattack. If this is the case then an early conquest of Singers/the DEI would not help Japan that much (a little extra oil, etc.) & would create a very strong temptation to do something that may not be in Japan's best interest in the long run.

So I don't think there's an optimal strategy for Singapore, which is good, as this allows for more variation & interesting game play.

< Message edited by SBD -- 8/26/2013 6:48:28 AM >

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/26/2013 11:46:57 PM

steamboateng

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Gentlemen, your discussions give much pause for thought. Your insights are appreciated.
I neither want to do a full Sir Robin nor commit valuable forces too early. My inclination is building a series of speed bumps. With any luck, and supply from Palembang and Soerabaja, Singapore can hold well into March.
Since I'm using a somewhat modified version of Sarduakar's initial set-up, I will have the Aussie 1st Div placed forward at Alice Springs in Oz to move on Darwin if threatened. The backside of that maneuver is it leaves the rest of Oz pretty much undefended, as I also plan to move the entire 30th Aussie Brigade to PM to prevent a quick Nipponese coup there. (Terapo is also somewhat of an open flank with the ability to build size 7 airfield.) I suppose that means a rapid build-up of US forces in OZ is necessary.
I have decided to leave Singapore forces as is, consigning the two Aussie brigades to their heroic place in digital history. The PP saved can well be used elsewhere.
Northern Sumatra is a problem in itself. With no rail connections, the forces stationed there are destined to wither on the vine. I've decided to have them stand at Medan. True, Medan is a flat area with no defensive bonuses, but it is also a 200 oil port with a refinery, which will provide it with supply in the same hex (gamey, I know). Perhaps the engineers can provide a bit of mayhem when Tojo comes knocking. Palembang will be defended with anything I can move in there, but certainly no 'Fortress". Again, I trust the engineer units will provide some mayhem to engage the future residents. It's a toss up whether to stand at Batavia or Soerabaja. Soerabaja provides supply in hex due to its oil and refineries, but is in undefensible terrain. Batavia is a defensible urban hex, but will be isolated from supply. Perhaps a stand at both, possibly splitting Nippon forces, and delaying any post action refit?
The only Dutch forces I plan to spend PP on are the 3 fine heavy AA units, which I will move to cover Darwin.
These are my humble thoughts?

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/27/2013 2:33:29 AM

Canoerebel

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Darwin ought to be a death trap if you're facing a competent Japanese opponent.

AA belong in fortress hexes that are (1) sure to draw a sustained enemy bombing campaign, and (2) can hold for a long time. Singapore fits these requirements. Usually, some of the Assam/region bases will (Chittagong and Akyab being two possibilities). Outside of those two, though, it's pretty much impossible to predict good places to place AA. The game will dictate that by what vectors you opponent chooses. One possiblity is to concentrate AA at important forward ports against a KB raid - Colombo, Sydney, Auckland and Pearl Harbor being good condidates.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/27/2013 5:43:37 PM

ny59giants

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Since I have played both sides a few times, the importance of Singapore to Japan is the large port and the ability to have a quicker turn around time in using troops. Without Singpore, your base of operations has to be either Saigon or/and Cam Ranh Bay. The lower rates of loading and unloading at these two ports plus the transit time vs operating from Singapore can be significant. A skill that a Japanese player has to learn, and I have to improve mine, is keeping a high tempo of operations in the SRA for the first few months. Having Singapore makes your Japanese logistics easier and your operations go smoothly.

Like others have stated, the two Aussie brigades are important in preventing the "Mersing Gambit" from happening. I was able to do this in my last game as Japan and capture Singapore by the end of Dec '41, but was still too inexperienced to fully exploit it.

Some bases are more important to deny to the enemy than they are to you. Port Moresby is the classic example of this.

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/27/2013 9:53:30 PM

steamboateng

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CR, I'm playing the AI, and I expect it to play out on somewhat 'historical' lines. I'm playing the Dec 8th scenario because it gives me the Repulse and POW intact, allowing me to weild an offensive punch. (Not into mods, although 'Da Babes' appears interesting.)
Play PBEM..........! Ha! I'm a bit too long in tooth to even expect I'd ever finish a game. And I've read a few AAR's.....you guys play wild and wooly. Way too Dodge City for me; poker and gunfights are fine to read about, but Admiral Wyatt Earp I'm not.
Don't get me wrong, I love reading the AAR's, especially your latest against Jon III. Truth is, I'm way to 'history' oriented to ever be good against a real human.
However, I do pick up a lot of insights and game mechanics from the AAR's. And Nemo just blows my mind. Need a dictionary and a hot Google finger when I read him.
I owe you folks who write and contribute to the AAR's a big thanks for some great entertainment.
Now, go out there and hurt something!
Regards

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RE: Aussie 22nd and 27th Brigades - 8/28/2013 3:36:01 AM

Canoerebel

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Bullwinkle ought to post now his feelings about AI vs. PBEM. He was a dedicated AI for years and is currently involved in his first PBEM. I think he's really, REALLY enjoying the PBEM, but I also think he's fairminded and still a big supporter of games vs. the AI. But overall, I think he'll tell you that the level of excitement is dramatically higher in a PBEM game.

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