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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Input needed on valor of game Page: [1]
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Input needed on valor of game - 1/13/2003 2:00:15 AM   
rlefebvr

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 1/13/2003
From: Montreal Quebec
Status: offline
Hi all,

I have one more week to decide to keep this game or not and I need some input.
I want to like this game and everyone seems to agree it is a great game.
I have read almost all the important threads in the forum and I am starting to get a small understanding of what I can do.
The tutorial is terrible and is of no help. the manual may be well written, but does not seem to explain how to do ANYTHING.
Apart from not knowing what or how to do things, may biggest problem with the game is the feeling that it does not matter what I do.
That the game could play all by itself without my input at all.Tell me this is not so?
Also, I find it very difficult to tell if I am doing well or even going in the right direction. The game seems to give you very little feedback making it difficult to go on.
Tell me this is not so?
Also, what the heck is a barge and what does it do. I have read the threads , but I still do not get it.

Basically, I want to love this game, but the feeling that the game is playing by itself and the lack of visual feedback makes it difficult.

If anybody can prove me wrong, it would be greatly appreciated.

Keep in mind when you respond that you are talking to what you guys call a rookie. I know NOTHING.
I do want to learn however as I just love these type if games, even if I am terrible at them.

Ron Lefebvre
Thanks to all who respond.

_____________________________

Ron Lefebvre
Post #: 1
- 1/13/2003 2:32:09 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline
Actually, Ron, it can play itself if you set it that way in the preferences.

Seriously, though, there's a lot of subtlety to playing UV, and I agree with you completely about the lack of utility to the manual. Still, there is a lot of information there that you can put to use, although it doesn't translate intuitively to the game. This manual suffers from a serious deficiency I have seen over and over in my three-plus decades as an editor of professional publications. I call it the "I know what I am, but what are you?" disease (a bastardization of Pee Wee's line, of course).

Writers and compilers of guides, manuals, indexes, and similar materials often forget that the reader is not conversant with the subject being addressed. As a consequence, it all makes sense to the writer, but frequently is completely opaque to the uninitiated reader. Particularly with regard to the UV manual, those who wrote it seem to have forgotten that the poor user has no idea how to translate all that verbiage into specific keyboard commands when attempting to play the game. Also, the organization of the material tends to "penny packet" bits and pieces all over the place that should have been collected into one place for edification of the reader (try, for example, to figure out the effect of headquarters units on ground combat by looking in one place, or even finding the correct places to look for the information). Manual Chapter 8, "Interface," is worth careful review, however, as it gets into a lot of the "how to" stuff.

Notwithstanding all that, the game is terrific fun once you get into it, particularly when you start playing PBEM. It's not easy, and it takes time, patience, and a lot of "oops, I screwed that up, time to start over."

The best place to get tips and advice is right here in these forums. Don't be afraid to ask questions. A lot of these guys are amazingly conversant with UV and write clearly, practically, and informatively when explaining the "how to." They are the most valuable source of learning outside the game itself (except for you guys who are a pain in the @$$, and you know who you are).

Okay. Barges. These are light craft designed for short-range transport of troops and supplies. They don't carry much, but can be very valuable in supplying forward bases that are vulnerable to enemy air attack. They are cheap and expendable. You can ferry troops this way, as well, although barges are so small they don't carry much at one time, and you are exposing your troops to the possibility of annihilation if your barge traffic runs into surface forces or submarines (which will surface and bang away at barge TFs).

The Japanese get huge numbers of barges that start to accumulate from the very beginning of a campaign game. The Allies get fewer, and don't get any until about the end of 1942. You can check your barge availability by opening your "ship availability" screen from the "intelligence" display. The number available is given in the lower left corner (if you are playing the Allies, you also get availability information for PT boats).

The way you create barges is to form a transport TF at a naval forces entry port (Truk for Japan, Brisbane or Noumea for the Allies) and load supplies. Send the TF to (or near) where you want to create barges, then go to the TF screen and click on "activate barges." Presto! You now have a TF of barges available for duty (if you have enough supplies, you can create several barge TFs from one transport TF, if you want to). Be sure to access the barge TF order screen and change the home port to the one you want them to be at, or they will try to return to the naval forces entry port the transport TF just came from (also see manual section 9.20, particularly for supply costs for creating barges and the effect of designating barge hubs and how that sets up an automated forward supply system when you station barges there).

PT boats are created by the Allies the same way. They are useful for shooting up enemy barges and engaging enemy surface forces, although they tend to evaporate pretty quickly in surface engagements against enemy surface combatants. They can slip the occasional torpedo into a battleship or cruiser, though, so there's no reason to be shy.

Hope this helps. Stay with it, man. It's a great ride.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 2
- 1/13/2003 3:27:33 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline
Hi Ron,

I had the same feeling that the "game plays itself" when I first bought it. Some of the scenarios start with TFs already formed up, air squadrons already assigned to missions, etc. My advice: clear the decks and do everything yourself. Take charge. You'll learn quick.

Fire up a scenario and fiddle with *everything.* Resolve not to care whether you win or lose; just play. Disband existing TFs; make new ones; select admirals to lead your Surface & Air Combat TFs and lesser COs for your convoys; change all the air squadrons' missions, or at least the % assigned to a mission; take subs off auto, make your own Submarine Patrol (or Minelaying) TFs, and give them destinations; create your own Transport TFs, load some with supplies, others with fuel, and send them off; tell some bases to build ports only, tell others to build airfields only; load some troops on some APs & move them to a forward base or unoccupied hex or even an enemy base; etc. Soon you'll realize that in fact you can control *everything* that happens, and probably should in fact control most things to play well.

Once you "take charge" of the first turn, you'll see the game responds to your orders. For the next few turns, you may not to intervene much as TFs load up and travel to destinations, planes fly search/recon missions, etc. Then you'll start to see things that bug you, and you'll intervene again.

I agree that the manual isn't ideal, and some of the interface decisions are odd. (E.g., lots of significance rests on whether you set a TF to "Patrol/Do Not Retire" or "Retirement Allowed." The manual section on fleet missions does explain this thoroughly, but it's often counterintuitive.) But you can learn quickly by doing. Go for it!

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 3
- 1/13/2003 4:19:20 AM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline
I don't think you should try liking it to hard!
Keep it! - it's really worth it and read the forum and manual when you feel for it.

I was one of the first to pick up the UV disc in my mail, but you know what! - I didn't really start playing it until this december ;)

Was really busy with the war on the eastern front last summer, playing SPWaW and WIR. So when I got somewhat tired of that, I started reading the AAR's for UV and interest rocketed.

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 4
- 1/13/2003 4:48:48 AM   
wobbly

 

Posts: 1095
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Status: offline
pasrternak has writtten some great stuff on some of your questions - I'll attempt to answer the "am I winning".

When I first started plating the game there appeared to be just too much to do: where do I start, what should my aims be, how do I even get things like "barges" going? I could fill this post with a list of questions like that. While the manual is a little spartan it does seem to have most of what you are after in it, one of the benefits (despite still wanting a paper copy) of having it in pdf form - you can search for your topics. Again as pasternak says - penny pinching - the titbits are spread all over the place.

This isn't answering your question though. How do i know I am winning? THis a very good question, but in my experience it is one you could ask of many games: the value that the game puts on number of ships for instance, never takes into account where your lesser number of ships are. In UV it is different depending on which side you are playing, and it still isnt definitive.

For the Japanese you can feel you are ahead if you have knocked off a CV group of the allies while keeping your's up to date, and have taken either port moresby or have Lunga built up and some airbases in nevea or irau. now the important thing here is dates and number of ships but more importantly planes/pilots remaining with high experience. Your time is before 1943.

For the Allies, the name of the game is survival, chip away at the japs, hit and run raids, use the threat of what you have rather than overusing it. Most importantly, try and manouver to kill his pilots and aircraft - they don't get replaced nearly as fast as yours do: this is very difficult to do as his pilots are that much better, essentially you need to get them to defend/attack while fatigued. Hold bases but don't kill yourself in the process. Your time is after 1943 - watch out for the Jap auto victory.

Now those are simplified in the extreme, and also doesn't take into account the effect of FoW. However, I don't mind this lack of knowledge, especially in PBEM games, I think it reduces the amount of drop outs.

Stick with the game, keep trying again after you make mistakes to get the interface down. Also, return here with your questions - they WILL be answered.

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 5
- 1/13/2003 5:50:19 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline
If you haven't done so, don't forget to download the patches. They have made a lot of updates from the initial release.

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 6
- 1/13/2003 9:28:06 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline
Speaking of Patches, if you're starting with version 1.0, don't download any of the 1.x patches. Go right to Patch 2.0, and then all of the 2.x series. That will give you the cleanest install.

Don't start a PBeM game until you've whooped the AI a few times. Don't use it as a barometer of your PBeM success, only to get a handle on game mechanics.

Beating the AI in a computer is much like beating your little brother in hoops, it happens, but it's not like playing your friends

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 7
- 1/13/2003 9:00:06 PM   
rlefebvr

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 1/13/2003
From: Montreal Quebec
Status: offline
Thanks for the info guys,

I have started over the Coral Sea scenario 4 or 5 times now.
I have deleted my TF's and started from scratch.
The setup time is extremely long, if you want to do things right.

I think my problem was trying to see results from my actions to quickly. Thinking more in terms of Panzer General.

This being a short scenario, the set up is really the game with fine tuning once the Mayhem starts. I still don't get everything, but it's getting better and I try new things with every re-start.

It's different and you need to be patient. There is a lot of downtime as far as input, but I would think that would change once you get into bigger scenario's. I will give it this. It's very very addictive. Played for 3 hours last night after saying one more turn after one hour of play.

How am I doing....well, just trying to figure things out of course, but I have lost my Carrier TF every single time....oh well....live and learn.

Ron Lefebvre

Kill the Weak and Strong and let the Ultimate survive.

_____________________________

Ron Lefebvre

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 8
- 1/13/2003 9:14:13 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline
Hi Ron,

It sounds like you're going about it the right way. It's normal for the "first turn" to take a lot longer to plot: you've got to check every unit on that first turn. After that, though, turns tend to go much quicker: your subs go on their way, TFs start sailing toward destinations or loading cargo, etc. Even then, you still have to check most of your air squadrons every day for fatigue. (Don't let it get much over 20; rest them, especially in bad weather.)

As for losing a CV in Coral Sea: if you're the USN, it's tough not to lose, in part because the IJN's planes have longer ranges. You might try firing up the same scenario as IJN and seeing how you fare. (As the US, I avoid early carrier battles altogether.) Whichever side you play, be sure to reserve some CAP for your carriers.

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 9
- 1/14/2003 10:04:41 AM   
RayM

 

Posts: 310
Joined: 10/19/2000
From: Marlton, NJ USA
Status: offline
Welcome Ron,

Great suggestions from one and all.

Recommend you also take at look at the process and suggestions offered by 'Feinder.' His response can be found under the topic "Help, tutorial" in this forum.

Good luck and forget about getting any decent sleep...

Ray

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 10
- 1/14/2003 10:49:33 AM   
rcwkent

 

Posts: 51
Joined: 11/6/2002
From: New York City
Status: offline
Ron

I found the short scenarios to be the most help at first.
#2 Eastern Solomons and #4 Four weeks of heII don't
have any New Guinea or Australia assets, so you can concentrate
on a smaller scale.
#3 Milne Bay just concentrates on NG and Aus.
The short scenarios are great for making the stupidest mistakes cuz they end quickly.
Nothing's more frustrating than losing all carriers and msw's
in May 42 in #17.

Play head to head with yourself and get in a PBEM game ASAP!!
Playing against the AI will only teach you bad habits, and those will kill you against real guys.

This game is the best- my wife has reported me missing on several occassions in the last 3 months. I went on vacation to sunny Mexico last week and dreamt about pesky pt boats
at lunga as I lay on the beach. I was seriously jonesing without my UV.

Hang in there.

Dick

_____________________________

"I don't know what the heck this logistics is that Marshall is always talking about, but I want some of it"
Admiral Ernest J King

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 11
- 1/14/2003 12:15:35 PM   
MikeMark

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 12/22/2002
From: CA
Status: offline
Hey Ron, I know your frustration. The hardest thing so far I have found is getting your ships and planes to do what you want.

I still haven't found a way to keep my carriers from attacking aside from standing down all my planes.

I spent three or four turns getting in postion to amush the Japanese carriers, then having my own carries (on thier own) attacking a couple of transports, giving their position away.

I have played Coral Sea about half way through about six times now, and have learned new lessons everytime out.

Last lesson I learned was from Nomea the first three turns I stand all my fighters down after sending a couple of smaller ships ahead of my carriers. Seems like once the gravy starts to thicken, my fighters are already bushed, so i decided to give them some rest. That's another hard lesson, forget to check those planes out before you know it your PBY's have a 61 fatiuge and are falling out of the sky.

I couldn't stand the game at first, but I am coming around.

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 12
- 1/14/2003 1:52:29 PM   
Krec


Posts: 548
Joined: 3/9/2001
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline
this game you must learn in steps, so many rules and nothing is as it first seems, what i do is play alittle , read alot. id say in about a month i should have a overall ideal of how these differnt aspect go together. i am totally new to naval warfare. so just putting togethjer a TF is a project. and seeing as there are no examples of correct composition, i guess its totally trail and error.
oh well , i played coral to a minor vic as allies agiasnt Hard AI. ( never did engage any ships although i torpedoed afew transports) i am now in a email game named 4 weeks of hell, and let me tell you its a jump from coral to this one, transports are a real interesting topic. i thought i would just load men , supplies and fuel in TF and go..................WRONG, how did i know its not that simple. anyway i think patience is the key , the manual is ok, playing and making mistakes is the only way.
i am on my way to GC as we speak!!

_____________________________

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." Patton


(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 13
- 1/15/2003 2:15:02 AM   
rlefebvr

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 1/13/2003
From: Montreal Quebec
Status: offline
I tell you, screw the book, if you want to learn something, read the forum, save the pertinent info in notepad and post questions.

All of the Questions I have wanted to ask are already in the forums. I already have 12 files from forum post explaining about barges, escorts, bases, flight levels, damage, supplies.
The book just confuses me.

It's a shame to spend so much time just to learn the basics. In fact, it's criminal. 8 or 10 simple tutorials would have been extremely easy to produce.

Luckily for us and the software company there is a lot of fans of the game willing to give their valuable time and energy helping others or I am sure this game would sink to the ocean floor.

I want to thank everyone who have responded and all those who have posted help on these forums, They have saved the game for me (and others I am sure) and made me want to keep trying.

Ron Lefebvre

Kill the weak and strong and let the Ultimate survive.

_____________________________

Ron Lefebvre

(in reply to rlefebvr)
Post #: 14
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