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Non-AA units firing at Aircraft - 1/15/2003 4:31:13 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		It was mentioned in an AAR/DAR thread that it might be prudent to turn off the main gun of tanks, et al, in order for the commander to aim and fire the AAMG more effectively.

I found this intriguing and ran a couple of tests.

AAMG-equipped vehicles will fire some shots at an aircraft without turning off the main gun. However, if the main gun IS turned off, it seems that the frequency of AA fire a vehicle delivers is increased by two to three times. :)

The more lead aimed at an incoming aircraft, the harder it is for that aircraft to get a good target lock.

Turning off the main gun might be a useful tactic, if the unit is well to the rear and not likely to engage ground units during Opfire. :cool:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
Post #: 1
- 1/15/2003 4:48:39 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Excellent news! Thanks for doing the test.

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 2
No sweat - 1/16/2003 2:58:27 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		You know guys, using the Hotseat option in SPW@W makes it very simple to setup and observe various weapon system's effectivity.

You just pick units for both sides - line 'em up like plastic soldiers on a tabletop - and shoot at them with something from the other side. Then you can go see the effects on your next turn.

I did this with minefields. Set up three or four patches of mines on one side, purchase some artillery of three or four different calibers (warhead size) and then drop each on it's own mine patch. The following turn, you can observe the damage, if any, on the your mines. Then you know that 75mm isn't for s#$* for locating or removing mines, but 203s do it fairly nicely.

Try the same thing with rockets and conventional artillery on full companies of infantry (mounted then dismounted) The results might surprise you. ;)

Pick a flat, featureless map and line up a company of JagdTigers, or Pershings, or something, on one side, against an equal 'point value' of M8s or Hetzers on the other side (5 or 6 companies, maybe?) This is a hoot. :D (and it'll teach you a lot about large-gunned tanks and TDs. Then go back and radically alter the visibility range, and try it again.

I've used this Hotseat method to determine true Rates of Fire, ammo consumption and reloading rates for various weapons. To do this for just a single weapon takes maybe 5 minutes. Time well spent in my opinion. :)

Good Stuff, that Hotseat option. :cool:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 3
- 1/16/2003 4:49:12 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Doesn't Op Fire mess you up? Can you turn it off?

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 4
Hotseat? - 1/16/2003 11:48:34 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		Capt Pixel, You and I think a lot alike. I used the solitaire play with both sides set to human. Same thing , I bet.

Sometimes I toggle the units to computer control, they move on you and you can try against moving targets. I haven't tried it in SPWaW but in other SP games the targets moving away at an angle are hardest to hit. Or close units moving at speed across the field so the aimed gun has to move the most. I once drove a complete circle around a Stuart with an SDK222 at a range of one hex. The Stuart fired every hex for 6 hexes and missed every one. The SDK stopped behind and wasted the Stuart.

You describe the actions and results so much better through. Keep doing it. I learn so much from this forum. I loved your artillery thread. There was a US rocket unit in SPWW2 that could get a full reload every turn if parked beside an ammo truck. I won the battle with them but, I think that was my last SPWW2 game.
I tried to figure out why sometimes Airstrikes missed easy targets. You know it takes almost 20 hexes to acquire a target and manuever the plane for a successful target run. Coming off the edge of the board or back of the map to hit those units close to the edge just doesn't give you the results you would hope for.

Have you done any testing of airstrikes? Is the thread still active?

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 5
- 1/17/2003 10:53:38 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I haven't really reported anything on airstrikes, although I did do a thread comparing AntiAir capability. titled 'Best Anti-Aircraft Unit?'

I can characterize the issue of airstrikes in a couple of statements.

1) Minimize your exposure. Keep your aircraft on the map for as short a time as possible. Watch your entry and exit directions and choose the shortest path into the target and the shortest path off the map.

1a) Minimize your ground forces exposure. Don't plot airstrikes near your forces OR along the airstrikes line of approach, if you can help it.

2) Know your weapons. Try to make sure that the airstrike has weapons that will be effective against the target. MGs and cannon are effective against lightly armored vehicles, Bombs can affect any target but are most effective against infantry, Rockets are the only consistently effective anti-tank ammo (IMHO).

3) Supress the target area. Drop some artillery in the area first. Infantry and Flak with their heads down don't fire at passing aircraft as often. Even if they do fire, it will likely be at a reduced chance to hit.

4) Avoid targetting frontal armor. It's generally easier to kill a vehicle from a side or rear approach. This increases your chance of an immobilization, in lieu of an outright kill.

5) Don't give your opponent unnecessary reconn intelligence. Airstrikes have a bug that allows the opponent to see forces that [I]your[/I] planes fly over. If your planes [I]don't[/I] fly over your forces, he can't see anything useful. Watch your entry and exit directions, and make sure they don't fly over anything juicy (like your artillery park) :rolleyes:

I personally don't care for the airstrike option when playing PBEM. the instant aerial reconn bug is a little too much. :p

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 6
Good Ideas - 1/21/2003 9:53:48 PM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]
5) Don't give your opponent unnecessary reconn intelligence. Airstrikes have a bug that allows the opponent to see forces that [I]your[/I] planes fly over. If your planes [I]don't[/I] fly over your forces, he can't see anything useful. Watch your entry and exit directions, and make sure they don't fly over anything juicy (like your artillery park) :rolleyes:

I personally don't care for the airstrike option when playing PBEM. the instant aerial reconn bug is a little too much. :p [/B][/QUOTE]

If you use your TOT adjustment for the end of your opponents turn instead of your turn. You can replay VCR any number of times to get a better look, while he cannot. Sometimes this is a help. But you are SURE right about the free peak of your own forces layout. I will be much more careful about entry and exit hexes.

Can They turn around? Back out the opposite corner of the same side of the board? In from NE out SE ?
I like watching them strike. They have to be the prettiest graphics in the game. I find them too much of a deadly and interesting asset to give them up. :)

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 7
- 1/22/2003 2:33:47 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I think replaying the VCR is a liitle unethical.

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 8
- 1/22/2003 2:41:12 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]I think replaying the VCR is a liitle unethical. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. But, I also have one game where my opponent had set his msg delay so short that it's nearly impossible to tell what happened in the replay. In this case, I've had re-run the VCR playback twice to catch what I missed the first time.

As far as your opp fire question, I generally play with the Opp Fire Confirm Off. I haven't noticed much of a problem in Hotseat. I control my units Opp Fires by setting the response ranges rather than asking for a confirmation of each possible shot. Sometimes my units do stoopid things, but that's war. :rolleyes:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 9
Re: Good Ideas - 1/22/2003 2:46:22 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buzzard45
[B]Can They turn around? Back out the opposite corner of the same side of the board? In from NE out SE ? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, you can. I quite often will strike from the NW and exit to the NE. (Or SW to SE) Striking from the top or bottom helps in getting those side/rear shots, most of the time.

[QUOTE][B]I like watching them strike. They have to be the prettiest graphics in the game. I find them too much of a deadly and interesting asset to give them up. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Me too! Sometimes, if I'm bored, I'll just set up a battle with nothing but air strikes. And sit there and watch the flyboys decimate some poor unsuspecting armor formation. Great fun! :cool:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 10
What is unethical? - 1/22/2003 10:28:56 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]I think replaying the VCR is a liitle unethical. [/B][/QUOTE]

What is unethical about using a feature that is available to both sides? If it were available to only one side and gave an unfair advantage then it [U]may[/U] be unethical to use it. There are many such features in the game that give an advantage to attacker or defender. The biggest and most anoying to me is the * spotted feature. Who gave all units psychic ability to know when they are spotted by the enemy? How does a truck crew carry smoke grenades but a tank with smoke dispensers does not? How do you see smoke coming from smokeless powder in hexes you cannot see? How do you jump from a truck moving at 25mph, attack a hex and re-load onto the same truck travelling, now, 30 mph?( truck, half-track, whatever)
Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a game. The rules are arbitrary and controlled by the AI. The best player is the one that works within the rules and is most effective at it. Yes, there are morality issues with attempts to go outside the rules in cracking files or using bugs in the rules to exclusive advantage. However, I do not believe that the VCR key is any different than the select weapon button or the Z key. There are no limitations on these keys. There are no limitation on the right click searching feature. I don't understand how re-watching a fast moving replay is any different. In a way, it is curing a bug, not taking advantage of one

Would some one please explain it to me? I will change my practices with a logical explanation. :confused:

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 11
- 1/23/2003 2:25:11 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Let's say I have a well placed AT Gun that is hard to see; I am careful to only fire it once or twice so that it will stay hidden from your units. If your units don't spot where the shot comes from you shouldn't be able to watch that round come at you again unless that round has another chance of hitting you IMHO. Same goes for any unseen units. Replaying the VCR lets you pinpoint the hexes where hidden units are located. I'm not calling you a cheater. I just don't think it is appropriate to re-use the VCR in PBEM. If you miss something in the replay, that is too bad. I miss out on intel all the time because I am not paying close enough attention to the info screen (e.g. Was that an 88mm that just blew up my tank or a 37mm that just got lucky? Oh, well, I should have paid closer attention.).

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 12
- 1/23/2003 5:33:58 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		It's just a matter of gaming style. I couldn't care less if you wanted to repeat my last turn ad naseum. It's your time. ;)

Besides, if you want to really muck around with your replay and make your opponent dizzy watching it, just bounce around the board and take shots from all different areas. Pop some smoke here, jump to the front move a tank, take it's shot, disappear, go back to the smokers and pop some more smoke, etc, etc, etc. :rolleyes: Your opponent won't WANT to watch it a second time. :D

Setting the message delay to a really short time (eg 50) also makes it difficult to find the hidden units, even with multiple VCR replays. It just flys by too fast.

In the good olden board game days, you couldn't even hide units effectively. Everybody knew where everything was, pretty much, and abided by whatever rule system that game promoted.

A game is a game. Every game has it's little tricks and traps, whether it's checkers or moving pebbles about in scooped hole in the dirt, Stratego, Monopoly or Quake. You play the games to learn the tricks. You use the tricks to win the games.

Simple, no? ;)

(Got any 'fives'?) :cool:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 13
I don't disagree. - 1/24/2003 11:06:00 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]Let's say I have a well placed AT Gun that is hard to see; I am careful to only fire it once or twice so that it will stay hidden from your units. If your units don't spot where the shot comes from you shouldn't be able to watch that round come at you again unless that round has another chance of hitting you IMHO. Same goes for any unseen units. Replaying the VCR lets you pinpoint the hexes where hidden units are located.



I have had this very thing happen in a number of games. You make a very good point. I have come to expect to have even my unseen guns to be attacked in some way. If you put this in a "real" situation, and a number of friendly units have been attacked and/or destroyed by an unseen weapon, would you as a field commander want all info possible from your forces. Would not the cry go out, "where'd it come from?", and would the commander not direct fire at the suspected location? To localize a target to a 50 meter area is not spotting a target.

"If you miss something in the replay, that is too bad. I miss out on intel all the time because I am not paying close enough attention to the info screen (e.g. Was that an 88mm that just blew up my tank or a 37mm that just got lucky?"

Nor should it be that difficult for experienced troops to recognise enemy weapons and the direction and approximate distance that fire came from. The "Z" fire or "B" fire is not as accurate as LOS/LOF. Is it not reasonable to assume that all personel would be polled as to the where-abouts of a weapon putting them under fire? I have not been in combat so I cannot truthfully answer this question. It is an assumption on my part To me the replay gives me that second or third opinion. Don't get me wrong, I don't routinely pin-point a hex from which fire comes from by use of the VCR, for the reasons that Capt Pixel has given. Its just too annoying and I want to get on with the game, but certain circumstances warrant it. Again., I thank Capt Pixel for his input. I respect my opponents who have used that info against me as "You play the games to learn the tricks. You use the tricks to win the games."


rbrunsman, I have read many of your posting and I have great respect for your opinions. Perhaps this is another thing that should be agreed upon before beginning the game.

The one thing that I don't agree with is setting the replay at speed that is unreadable or any such setting that purely designed to keep info from your opponent. The "Fast artillery on" for instance. I noticed that almost all games specify this off. Obviously because some players have used the this setting to hide the amount and caliber of artillery. I have always maintained that is basic knowledge essential to reacting to this type of attack. It determines whether you should just duck or whether you should run screaming into the distance calling for your mommy. I have never played with an opponent that has done this. I have, as a joke in SP1, changed the names of units. That game had a feature that allowed you to rename units. So I had Tigers and Panthers in my British force, but it fooled no one and was not meant as malicious misinformation.

I am in the game for the fun and challenge. That is why I often play the under-dog. My profile shows that I [U]like[/U] the British. I also like playing the French in 1940 (but I use german tactics ;) )

I hope there is no offence taken. :( There is none meant :o And thank-you for the discussion.


Capt. Pixel... Go Fish.. Got any 7's?? ;) ;)

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 14
- 1/24/2003 11:47:56 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Buzzard45:
No offense taken at all. I appreciate your explanation and I agree with you on a lot of what you say now that you've explained more fully. It is a big gray area and I just happen to fall on the side of not replaying the VCR (just barely). I don't particularly care if someone replays my turns. It's more of a small favor I give to my opponent without being asked. I use enough of the tricks the game engine allows that I can't go telling everyone they are playing wrong if they don't play my way.

We raised the issue and valid points were made. To each his own.

In addition to what Capt. Pixel said, you could also set the message delay to Max and your opponent would for sure never watch another turn!:D

I doubt that anyone sets fast arty On on purpose. With it on, one player gets to watch the replay and the other doesn't (can't remember which player though). That is definitely not right.

You poor sap, liking to play the Brits and French.:(

You must like taking a beating.;)

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 15
Poor Sap - 1/25/2003 12:33:45 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		I don't know about poor but sap is pretty close.

Like a lot of players who post to the web, I would rather lose a hard fought battle than win an easy victory. To win as an underdog is a sweeter victory, isn't it?:D :D

When my dance card opens up. I'd like play both of you. Right now CitizenX and Lynch are coming at my lowly (and mostly lonely) Brits. Ya, gotta love them 17pdrs. Best gun in the later parts of the war, but that's another thread.


Buzzard things you never see like Buzzards on a Christmas tree.;)

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 16
- 1/25/2003 2:05:35 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		It's almost, [U]almost[/U], unsporting to beat up on the Brits, but if you want a piece of me, just challenge away!:D I (from the receiving end of those 17pdrs) don't care for them too much.

I like to play early war battles but most people don't so if you want to try your hand with the French, just let me know about that one too. Those early French tanks are tough nuts to crack as I recall.

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 17
- 1/25/2003 2:08:40 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]In addition to what Capt. Pixel said, you could also set the message delay to Max and your opponent would for sure never watch another turn!:D
[/B][/QUOTE]

ROTFLMAO :D :D :D :D :D (alt-tab)

One thing that I have found annoying in the past is finding out half way through a game that your opponent doesn't see things quite the way you do.

Say the presence of mines wasn't discussed beforehand in an Assault scenario. Now he's ticked 'cause you used them prelayed. (:confused: )

Suppose your opponent is more historically oriented than yourself and has a problem with your force made up of 20 KoenigsTiger and 5 kubelwagens. (WTF?? It's my points to spend!)

Or the biggie: One quarter of your opponent's points were spent on big-a$$ divisional artillery. (No one moves or the pig gets it!)

I finally decided I'd hit the issues that were the most important to me and make sure they were clearly understood by all concerned parties. Anything left undefined just adds to the vagueries of the battlefield. "What?! You expected me to fight fair?!? :eek:

As it happens Buz, I've got an open slot and the time to spend if you'd like to run through a game. Slot #8 is available, if you'd like to discuss the setup. :D

Let me know. :cool:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 18
- 1/25/2003 5:09:55 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I especially like the issue of prelaid mines discussed before hand since I play late at night. Even at the best of times, if one of my units steps on a mine it causes me to jump out of my chair. So, an unanticipated minefield could send me to the ER.:D

I'm currently making my way slowly through a German mine field as the Russians in a PBEM and even though I know it's going to happen, I still jump!

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 19
Thanks for the invites. - 1/25/2003 5:43:45 AM   
Buzzard45


Posts: 364
Joined: 1/11/2003
From: Regina, Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks for the invites guys.

I promised Oberst Pioniere that I would tutor him in SPWaW or at least be his virgin opponent. Its a tough move from SP1. I will be at my existing games for a while and I see CitizenX is back from his visit. I [U]am[/U] itching to get at one of you elites of the game. :p .

I couldn't agree more with your comments about mines and hail-storm of HE. I think you might have a True Rarity convert too. I have used the tons of jeeps and Staghounds loaded with AT and Snipers. I even imported some UCMC single flame throwers once. But, yowsa, it took a long time to play.:cool:

Hang onto your chest rbrunsman. The paddles are a long way away. What do you use to remove mines if you're are the Sovs? Do you march across it or send over the cattle? Brits can all remove them, given time and inacurate enemy arty.

Capt Pixel. You and I are closer in thoughts all the time. Are you my lost brother? or sister? or just a _____:eek:



When a Buzzard makes a decision and there is no woman around to correct him, is he still wrong?

_____________________________

" Look alive!! Here comes a Buzzard"
POGO

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 20
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