Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

According to this video, it was the French that saved the British.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6C5P-AYGdY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland

I think there is a BBC video on same topic saying nothing about the french.
So the score is 1 - 1.

A good read about this campaign from german point of view, including Dunkirk is "Blitzkried legend. die Westfeldzug 1940". KH Frieser. 1995. Translated in french in 2003. And in english this year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Oh dear.....

Yes, if you read between the lines it’s all quite simple:

French = heroic and brave
British = cowardly backstabbers.

What a shame. The truth of course is never that simple. Did the French provide the bulk of the rear-guard that enabled so many Allied troops to escape? Yes. Was their action heroic and to be applauded and honoured? Yes.
But as I said, things are not that simple.

First and foremost, it must be remembered that the French and British were two separate countries with centuries of enmity and that had been brought together only since the turn of the century thanks to the mutual fear and suspicion of Germany. Political and military leaders of both countries had one eye on what was best for them as well as for the alliance against Germany.

So against that background, if we look at the facts for a minute, in whose sector did the Germans make the breakthrough that ultimately led to Dunkirk? Are all the accounts false of much of the French army in and around Sedan melting away – not when meeting the Germans, but on rumours of the Germans soon arriving!

Can Churchill and Gort be blamed for not reacting to the French collapse with alarm and for doubting their willingness to fight? Iirc, a counter-attack was planned as the Germans raced for the channel coast, but the French failed to provide the troops promised.

Against this background what were the British to do? By the time the Germans had reached the coast there was no way the Allies could turn the battle – it was a case of how does this end for the troops encircled?
The British were going to fight on against Hitler, the French? They couldn’t be certain but history proves they were right not to take the chance.

When countries are defeated it is natural to look for someone, something to blame. The French and British in WWII were no different. The French blame the British, the British blame the French, and both blame the Belgians!

Facts are, Operation Dynamo played out like it did. Largely French rear-guard actions and the heroism of the Allied navies (btw despite what the video states, the Royal Navy suffered more losses than its French counterpart) bought time for the 300,000 + French and British troops to be evacuated. Britain fought on, and ultimately the Germans were defeated. Let’s be thankful for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Oh dear.....

Yes, if you read between the lines it’s all quite simple:

French = heroic and brave
British = cowardly backstabbers.

What a shame. The truth of course is never that simple. Did the French provide the bulk of the rear-guard that enabled so many Allied troops to escape? Yes. Was their action heroic and to be applauded and honoured? Yes.
But as I said, things are not that simple.

First and foremost, it must be remembered that the French and British were two separate countries with centuries of enmity and that had been brought together only since the turn of the century thanks to the mutual fear and suspicion of Germany. Political and military leaders of both countries had one eye on what was best for them as well as for the alliance against Germany.

So against that background, if we look at the facts for a minute, in whose sector did the Germans make the breakthrough that ultimately led to Dunkirk? Are all the accounts false of much of the French army in and around Sedan melting away – not when meeting the Germans, but on rumours of the Germans soon arriving!

Can Churchill and Gort be blamed for not reacting to the French collapse with alarm and for doubting their willingness to fight? Iirc, a counter-attack was planned as the Germans raced for the channel coast, but the French failed to provide the troops promised.

Against this background what were the British to do? By the time the Germans had reached the coast there was no way the Allies could turn the battle – it was a case of how does this end for the troops encircled?
The British were going to fight on against Hitler, the French? They couldn’t be certain but history proves they were right not to take the chance.

When countries are defeated it is natural to look for someone, something to blame. The French and British in WWII were no different. The French blame the British, the British blame the French, and both blame the Belgians!

Facts are, Operation Dynamo played out like it did. Largely French rear-guard actions and the heroism of the Allied navies (btw despite what the video states, the Royal Navy suffered more losses than its French counterpart) bought time for the 300,000 + French and British troops to be evacuated. Britain fought on, and ultimately the Germans were defeated. Let’s be thankful for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

I always laugh when Americans try to bash the French.

We (the Brits) have bee doing it for over a thousand years, and we aren't stopping anytime soon. (the reverse is also true)

Only a politician could come up with the idea of "sharing a CV." Its never going to work out in the long run.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Oh dear.....

Yes, if you read between the lines it’s all quite simple:

French = heroic and brave
British = cowardly backstabbers.

What a shame. The truth of course is never that simple. Did the French provide the bulk of the rear-guard that enabled so many Allied troops to escape? Yes. Was their action heroic and to be applauded and honoured? Yes.
But as I said, things are not that simple.

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

I always laugh when Americans try to bash the French.

We (the Brits) have bee doing it for over a thousand years, and we aren't stopping anytime soon. (the reverse is also true)



Only a politician could come up with the idea of "sharing a CV." Its never going to work out in the long run.

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ORIGINAL: oldman45

I remember reading that Goering convinced Hitler that his Air Force could finish the job. The army more than happy to let Goering fall on his sword obliged and stopped.

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I remember reading that Goering convinced Hitler that his Air Force could finish the job. The army more than happy to let Goering fall on his sword obliged and stopped.

I heard that too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I remember reading that Goering convinced Hitler that his Air Force could finish the job. The army more than happy to let Goering fall on his sword obliged and stopped.

I heard that too.

Ditto. Plus that the forward divisions were worn down.

I suspect if they had really appreciated the success the sea lift would en joy then they would have pressed much harder on land.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I recommend "Dunkirk- Fight to the last man" by Hugh Sebag-Montefiore

Excellent, particularly about the various formations in the rearguard

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: veji1

this type of discussion is largely nonsensical. In the end one can only be thankful that Dunkirk happened the way it happened, that the Germans made the mistake of not reducing the pocket fast enough and that the english and french soldiers trapped saved what, and I am a frenchman, had the most value to be saved at that time, the english soldiers.

Now what one has to grasp, accept and in a sense forgive, is that both countries have a vastly different feeling about dunkirk. For the brits it is the battle of britain part 1, the first proof of their heroism, foretelling what is to come : One year of resisting alone against hitler's forces. Ie an exhilarating story, the light of future victory in midst of defeat.

For the French dunkirk is the shame of defeat, the shame of military defeat, compounded by political defeat (ie the 100 000 french soldiers than crossing again to France to be prisonners of war), their land being occupied by the nazis for 4 years, etc... So Dunkirk just 100% sucks, and to read an watch british media basking in this grandiose example of the resilience of the british people in face of overwhelming odds yada yada yada... You see how the bitterness can come to the surface.

Add to this, and one has only to read Churchill's memoirs, how many french political leaders felt they had shouting for years about german danger only for the british among other to consider it paranoid, and actually to go back to the old island way of thinking : we don't want a dominant power in Europe, and right now the danger comes from France not Germany... Peace in our time was not a sentence uttered by Daladier as far as I know... Not saying that the french elite was by any means perfect, but just to give a bit of perspective on the bitterness the Dunkirk episode elicits in France.

Ah well still, the french lost pretty badly, their command sucked, they were fighting the previous war against new methods. Nevertheless they lost close to 200 000 casualties (killed and injured) in 6 weeks of fighting, a decent pool of blood if you ask me. Did many run, sure when the General Staff doesn't give orders and the officers start to waver, what is the rank and file to do.

So let's be thankful for the success of the Dunkirk evac, which mitigated the disaster, but let's not also forget the context of it all, and keep in mind that well for the French, the Dunkirk pocket is just part of an unreally painful process of utter, complete defeat and shame, that took just 6 weeks time.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

I always laugh when Americans try to bash the French.

We (the Brits) have bee doing it for over a thousand years, and we aren't stopping anytime soon. (the reverse is also true)

Only a politician could come up with the idea of "sharing a CV." Its never going to work out in the long run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0wvGiAH9g

A clip from the previous milenium so its clearly been going on for long...

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/