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Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/9/2013 5:06:28 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		How are the numbers in the editor arrived at for maneuverability?

Thanks for any enlightenment regarding this.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 9/9/2013 5:40:19 AM >

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/9/2013 7:07:19 PM   
MateDow


Posts: 218
Joined: 8/6/2002
Status: offline 		Personally, I look at ships that are comparable in size and configuration.

If I am doing a destroyer, I look for one that is about the same size with the same number of propellors and rudders. I also try and use the same country if possible, that isn't always an option.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/10/2013 4:37:56 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		I tried charting a bunch of ships from Stock AE to see if I could spot a trend in the data. I used a combination of speed and length (which is what the editor manual says "maneuver" is based on). I divided speed by length to come up with a variable to plot against maneuver. This is the graph I came out with. At first it was looking like a polynomial curve might match it but after enough plots it doesn't appear there is a single curve or line in existence which would match this data. So I'm perplexed. Not sure how the game figures maneuver or what it relates to.

I also tried plotting a line or curve using the highest maneuver of 94 and the lowest maneuver of 1. Still couldn't figure out how to get something that I could plot other ships from.

I'm tempted to start from scratch and come up with a whole new series of maneuver values based on plotting a curve between 1 to 94 against a variable representing a combination of speed and length. It would require tweaking all the values of ships to line them up properly but I really don't know what else to do.




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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/10/2013 5:16:34 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		IRL, there are other variables other than speed and length. Such as whether a ship can reverse her screws on one side to turn at a greater rate... but I don't think that will help you here.

However, other than the two outliers off on the right, there isn't a terrible line of best fit there. Do the outliers from it have special circumstances, i.e. were they conversions from merchants or other classes or anything like that?

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/10/2013 5:31:52 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		If graphing a curve the outliers on the right (which are MTBs) aren't necessarily a big problem. The worst offenders seem to be the three points highlighted below (which are a PC, SC and LCVP):




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< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 9/10/2013 5:35:12 AM >

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/10/2013 8:59:31 AM   
Jorm


Posts: 545
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Melbourne
Status: offline 		Nice work Gary

how to work out many of the editor variables has bugged me for ages, ship maneuver value certainly needs some 'demystification'

I resort to what others have done, i.e. pick a similar class and gowith that value, but who ever set up the database must have had some 'method' to do it else its a whole lot of best guesses and making stuff up.....

add aircraft durability and maneuver rating to the list :-)

cheers


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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/10/2013 1:33:37 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		It wouldn't surprise me if the devs didn't have advance and transfer characteristics for each class somewhere in the algorithm. Speed and length are components of these, but so are hull shape, rudder configuration and number, and a bunch of other stuff. Advance and transfer characteristics are published for classes these days (unless they're classified for current classes; don't know) and should be available for WWII classes. If a ship is trying to avoid a DB or a torpedo these two numbers would feed into a single maneuverability rating at its core.

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The Moose

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/10/2013 4:54:46 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
It wouldn't surprise me if the devs didn't have advance and transfer characteristics for each class somewhere in the algorithm. Speed and length are components of these, but so are hull shape, rudder configuration and number, and a bunch of other stuff. Advance and transfer characteristics are published for classes these days (unless they're classified for current classes; don't know) and should be available for WWII classes. If a ship is trying to avoid a DB or a torpedo these two numbers would feed into a single maneuverability rating at its core.

Yep, you got it Moose . Maneuver test factors (tactical radius, advance, crash, pull, etc.. ), become numerical factors for ship types. Number is applied generally according to HP/Dspl, Sp/Length ratios for individual classes.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/10/2013 9:30:20 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
It wouldn't surprise me if the devs didn't have advance and transfer characteristics for each class somewhere in the algorithm. Speed and length are components of these, but so are hull shape, rudder configuration and number, and a bunch of other stuff. Advance and transfer characteristics are published for classes these days (unless they're classified for current classes; don't know) and should be available for WWII classes. If a ship is trying to avoid a DB or a torpedo these two numbers would feed into a single maneuverability rating at its core.

Yep, you got it Moose . Maneuver test factors (tactical radius, advance, crash, pull, etc.. ), become numerical factors for ship types. Number is applied generally according to HP/Dspl, Sp/Length ratios for individual classes.


Cool. For a minute there I flashed back to OCS.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/11/2013 2:39:01 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It wouldn't surprise me if the devs didn't have advance and transfer characteristics for each class somewhere in the algorithm. Speed and length are components of these, but so are hull shape, rudder configuration and number, and a bunch of other stuff. Advance and transfer characteristics are published for classes these days (unless they're classified for current classes; don't know) and should be available for WWII classes. If a ship is trying to avoid a DB or a torpedo these two numbers would feed into a single maneuverability rating at its core.


Where can I find info on these other characteristics. Most sources I've seen, including Conway's just have the basic specs like length and speed. Are there better sources out there for info on individual ships?

Thanks.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/11/2013 2:55:44 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		What info does Jane's Fighting Ships have? I'm trying to track it down but it looks like you have to pay for it.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/11/2013 3:36:52 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

It wouldn't surprise me if the devs didn't have advance and transfer characteristics for each class somewhere in the algorithm. Speed and length are components of these, but so are hull shape, rudder configuration and number, and a bunch of other stuff. Advance and transfer characteristics are published for classes these days (unless they're classified for current classes; don't know) and should be available for WWII classes. If a ship is trying to avoid a DB or a torpedo these two numbers would feed into a single maneuverability rating at its core.


Where can I find info on these other characteristics. Most sources I've seen, including Conway's just have the basic specs like length and speed. Are there better sources out there for info on individual ships?

Thanks.


I've never seen a comprehensive list, but I guess the devs have one. Symon would know. I've just seen the numbers for an individual vessel. The QMs knew plus every conning officer.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/11/2013 3:44:50 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		I have Jane's Fighting Ships of WWII as well as fighting A/C but I get the picture that many of the specs might be somewhat limited by censorship of the time. I don't recommend it. For instance the IJN section is really a mess in the edition I have. There are even duplicates of some pages. I guess maybe I should get some more detailed books. I'm wondering if maybe M J Whitley's series of books on WWII ships might be more detailed? Does anyone possess any of Whitley's books on WWII Destroyers, Cruisers or battleships, etc?

Thanks.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/12/2013 6:49:04 AM   
MateDow


Posts: 218
Joined: 8/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I have Jane's Fighting Ships of WWII as well as fighting A/C but I get the picture that many of the specs might be somewhat limited by censorship of the time. I don't recommend it. For instance the IJN section is really a mess in the edition I have. There are even duplicates of some pages. I guess maybe I should get some more detailed books. I'm wondering if maybe M J Whitley's series of books on WWII ships might be more detailed? Does anyone possess any of Whitley's books on WWII Destroyers, Cruisers or battleships, etc?

Thanks.


If you are looking for information on German vessels, look for Gröner's German Warships: 1815–1945 which gives subjective values for maneuverability like "very maneuverable." I haven't found a book that goes into depth like advance and transfer. I'm guessing that you'd have to have access to the trials data for various vessels. I know for merchant vessels, there is a diagram posted in the wheelhouse for reference by a pilot when they are onboard.

As for the Graf Spee mentioned in another thread... I think that Gröner said that they are highly maneuverable. I don't have access to the book right now, but that is what sticks in my brain. Personally, I'd give it a slightly better rating than a Japanese or American 10,000 ton cruiser.

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RE: Ship Class Maneuver Value - 9/13/2013 4:40:10 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		The data is only available in reported tests which was confidential obviously, some old, non important ships data is already probably lost. Even worse for Japan. If the ship is out of the typical norm maybe a comment could be added for better or worse. I think i read that Yamatos were considered maneuverable for the size.

< Message edited by Dili -- 9/13/2013 4:41:52 PM >

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