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Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/12/2013 11:01:04 PM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Began work today on a WWII scenario which will utilize the Vassal game engine.The scenario will be payed solitaire or human vs human using dice as the primary weapon. I initially designed the scenario a couple of years ago for the Command Ops Battles from the Bulge game. I want to start off working with the Vassal module creator using something small in size and my Wingen sur Moder Mini scenario fits the bill perfectly.I decided to start this thread to track my progress and to give me a boost in incentive to see the project through to a finish....Bringing the project out in the open seems to help my enthusiasm.Spent yesterday doing some preliminary tests with the vassal module creator and I seem to have a decent handle on using the program.I put together the map for the scenario today...Borrowed the map from the BftB scenario and put down a hexagon grid overlay....Probably will color out the objective markers and bridges left from the BftB scenario...Next step I guess will be to design the counters..I deleted the screenshot of the map until I go over it and put in my own woods and buildings......


< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/13/2013 5:17:31 AM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/12/2013 11:05:03 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Before putting on VASSAL I'd ask Dave if it is OK to use the map as it uses his art..just a thought.

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/12/2013 11:21:03 PM   
sweeteye


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Status: offline 		Yes I have thought about that.....I do have graphics I designed for the Nancy scenario I made which I can use if need be .....would be a simple task to put them in...I am sure I will hear from Arjuna if it is not OK....Will take a considerable amount of time to get it ready for public use....There will be no charge for the scenario....

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 1:48:47 AM   
Arjuna


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Status: offline 		sweeteye,

I would have preferred you ask before displaying this.

I grant permission provided there will be no charge for the scenario you are developing and provided that the scenario comes with a credit notice that attributes the graphics to us and that the graphics cannot be used for any other purpose.

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 4:11:00 AM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
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Status: offline 		OK.... I understand your position....I will make the map from scratch so I have full rights to my work.....

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 4:27:50 AM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
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One thing I do not understand is if I hold the ultimate rights to my scenarios I designed for BFTB then why should graphics be an issue,especially If I make reasonable changes to them.




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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 6:10:53 AM   
sweeteye


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From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		After spending some time thinking about the development of the map....I decided to continue on making changes to the graphics,most notably the woods and buildings....I am not nearly finished but am going to make a solid effort to change the graphics to a reasonable degree. I do not like stepping on toes and I will give full credit to where it is deserved along with the finished scenario..I did use the BFTB map maker and I must say it is a great tool to have available.....By looking closely you can see that I have started on changing the woods and in one area have put in new buildings....Will take a little while to complete....



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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 9:51:31 AM   
IainMcNeil


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Status: offline 		Unless you have permission you are not allowed to use other peoples work in any form no matter how derivative it is - there are all sorts of moral and intellectual property rights to consider so either get permission or don't do it. Forgetting the legal issues it's only decent to ask before using someone else's hard work, whatever you are using it for.

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 11:52:22 AM   
sweeteye


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From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		I respect your opinion and I guess I should have asked....nontheless I have spent a lot of hours designing those scenarios and to make a contribution to the game...for absolutely nothing....not one penny....And then to end up being chewed out over a few piddly trees....the game has not even been released and it is being posted on a home site....credits already been given as well....I suppose I should change the shades of grey as well...I simply cannot believe it..

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/13/2013 12:11:44 PM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 1:39:23 PM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
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From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		After some more thought I have decided on using the existing Wingen map for my preliminary game scenario.....After editing the graphics of course........Any further scenarios I create will be made from scratch using the free tools that are available.I have removed my my map and scenario files from the BFTB forum and will no longer use the game or its game making tools nor will I create any more scenarios more for it......In the future I will use the vassal forum for posting the development of the game scenarios......

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/13/2013 1:40:49 PM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 2:31:29 PM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: offline 		sweeteye..I made a mod for Squad Battles..took me many many hours..only to see someone a few months later to use part of it and someone then said well done for that actual part..annoyed me so much I requested my mod to be taken offline.

Remember no one asked you to make a scenario for COBFTB and the art would have cost Panther to create and design. SO I can see them at least wanting to be asked before it is used.

It's only really a matter of courtesy to ask first anyway. Some people have been sued over this sort of thing as it can really annoy. I wouldn't have been bothered if the modder had asked if he could use it and mention me in the credits..but he didn't thats what was annoying.

Also a sit is obviously a BFTB art people may think it has something to do with Panther Games which again might not be something they want to happen. Lot's of reasons. Honestly until someone takes your work without asking you wouldn't get how annoying it can be.

Personally I think you've over reacted here. Dave came across in a reasonable manner and other developers etc have been far less tolerant.

One reason I haven't made mods for TU as far as the map goes is that I'd have to use other art assets as I don't have the skill to make them myself..however this can cause aggro plus obviously it couldn't be used in any official capacity.

I think you need to see it from Daves POV and then you may realise that not being asked can be abit annoying.

I think you should calm down and get this into perspective. No one has chewed you out and they did have a right too..thye just told you how they see it and gave your permission to carry on. They could easily have really chewed you out and told you not to do it at all. No one wants you to leave the CO forum or community and I'm sure Dave doesn't either. Take some time out and reconsider your current stance.

< Message edited by wodin -- 9/13/2013 2:39:15 PM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 3:32:19 PM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for responding Wodin.....My stance is as is and will not change.....My girl friend always tells me I am bull headed and I guess I am....I do respect the opinions that have been stated and do regret not asking about the matter first...Fact of the matter is is that I feel infringed upon myself.The only part of the map that is clearly visible as BFTB graphics are the woods and I will change that easy enough....I cannot see that I did any harm by showing a screen shot of my project before asking.......It is clearly stated in the license agreement that I hold the rights to my designed scenarios,even if there is some fine print that cannot be seen......I really have no ill feelings towards others,after all these are just games to played.......I will still be hanging around the forum unless of course I get booted.....Trying to avoid that....

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 9:26:27 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		OK mate..I accept your stance;) I too can be extremely strong willed..I've cut people off and out of my life who I've known for twenty odd years without a second thought because they crossed the line, no second chances. So I do get it.

I don't think anyone thinks you did harm..just for you o ask first before posting if using their art assets..I think you read Dave's response in a tone that probably it wasn't meant to be read in, which has tripped me up on many many occasions and for me is the major PITA about online communication.

The screenshot you posted to em looks exactly like a screenie of BFTB..so it to non players will look like the BFTB game.

Anyways I'll let you get on...please don't let this spoil your time here and your time with CO games.

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/13/2013 11:10:08 PM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Even if I remade the map from scratch it would look virtually the same.All the contour lines would be in the same place,roads and streams in the same place....Woods in the same location.I believe the woods are what needs changed the most....Here is what I plan on doing to the map.....cover the woods graphics over,replace the buildings,and put slash marks along the length of the railroad line.Minor features such as orchards and bushes are so blurred you can hardly tell they are there.The map has a hex overlay which makes it unique.I could change the grey colors slightly but I really do not see that as an issue,same goes for the roads and streams....Even if I made no changes to the graphics at all the map is still unlike any other in BFTB.I hold a basic disagreement with the terms for use of the map.....To me it is perfectly clear that I hold the rights to it......

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/14/2013 12:55:31 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		"You may not copy or distribute copies in any media form. Any persons doing so shall be guilty of copyright violation and subject to the appropriate civil or criminal action at the discretion of the copyright holder. "


"You may not rent or lease it, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, or modify the software in any way" (Except make a scenario for the game using the editor)


You must have missed this bit. You have a right to your scenario and change it as you see fit but you can't do anything with it outside the game. You def can't use a games art assets for a project of any sort if you haven't got permission.

Why not just make your own symbol set\Map..you could even hand draw it then scan it in.

< Message edited by wodin -- 9/14/2013 12:59:29 AM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/14/2013 2:50:39 AM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Seems to me they mean distributing copies of the actual game....I could be mistaken though.They state that the scenario designer holds the ultimate rights to their work.Does not make any sense to me that if I do hold the ultimate rights to a scenario I design that I could not make and distribute copies and even charge for them if I wanted.Copies of the maps and or scenarios would not use the BftB game of course..My plan is to make a preliminary scenario for Vassal that people could freely use to evaluate my game system...Then I will produce actual board games using that system to be sold.Selling is a long shot anyways,I would be happy even if the games were distributed for free in a computerized form....Personally I think the whole copywrite issue can become very petty and in this current instance that is what I see.I have said enough about it I guess....My Waterloo board game should arrive tomorrow and I am looking forward to the distraction from my own games....

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/20/2013 10:49:34 AM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Up Reveille! Up Reveille! Up Reveille all hands! Ready for the first test play..........
Lots of work still to be done..........









< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/20/2013 12:30:30 PM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/20/2013 3:14:20 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		What is Vassal? I've heard it before but don't know what it is.

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/20/2013 5:59:49 PM   
sweeteye


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From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Hello Gary....Vassal is a free to download engine for creating and playing board type games....I really like it a lot as many great board games are available...Also I am not much of a programmer and I find it useful for old fashioned wargame making.Fairly easy to work with also..There is no artificial intelligence though which is something to consider...

http://www.vassalengine.org/download.php

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/20/2013 6:11:25 PM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/20/2013 11:34:56 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweeteye

Hello Gary....Vassal is a free to download engine for creating and playing board type games....I really like it a lot as many great board games are available...Also I am not much of a programmer and I find it useful for old fashioned wargame making.Fairly easy to work with also..There is no artificial intelligence though which is something to consider...

http://www.vassalengine.org/download.php


Can you modify and create your own art for it? So for instance could I use my ships to create a naval game using this "Vassal"?

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/21/2013 12:27:14 AM   
sweeteye


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From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Oh yes....you can do the artwork for game pieces,maps,etc...it uses JPG images....The map from the Wingen scenario I am working on came originally from the BftB game...I took a screen shot of the map and saved it as a jpg image and then started to paint over it with my own artwork.Still not quite finished with it...The counters I am using I made from scratch.As I have said,Vassal is reasonably easy to work with though a bit confusing at first...I just studied other game modules that have been created for it...... A naval warfare game would work well....There may be some naval game modules available to look at for examples to study....

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/21/2013 12:28:47 AM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/21/2013 3:58:15 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Gary..there is no AI mate...it was made so that people who play board wargames could find someone and play online..So when you play a game using VASSAL you need the rule book and to know how to play it. It certainly isn't a computer game if thats how you think it works.

It's superb program though and most boardgame company's now make sure a VASSAL module is up and ready..The artwork is usually exactly the same as a boardgame. One day I hope to play Streets of Stalingrad against someone or do it hotseat.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweeteye

Hello Gary....Vassal is a free to download engine for creating and playing board type games....I really like it a lot as many great board games are available...Also I am not much of a programmer and I find it useful for old fashioned wargame making.Fairly easy to work with also..There is no artificial intelligence though which is something to consider...

http://www.vassalengine.org/download.php


Can you modify and create your own art for it? So for instance could I use my ships to create a naval game using this "Vassal"?


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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/21/2013 9:50:05 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		So there's no combat phase or whatever where losses and things are automatically calculated? Do players manually remove counters from the game when something is lost?

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/21/2013 10:03:06 PM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: offline 		Yeah prob through a drag and drop..you also have to place counters like "fired" or some such..it's purely the boardgame on the computer..it has a dice built in. If the game has a combat phase it will come up with "combat Phase" or whatever it's called in the game..you though will have to tell Vassal to move onto the combat phase following the boardgame sequence of play. VASSAL will no though which phase will come next. Not sure if VASSAL can be programmed to tell you the damage from a die roll or not i.e Attacker 1 step loss defender 2 steps and retreat or you have to cross reference the roll on the boardgame charts then flip or remove counter or whatever you need to do.

Put it this way I learnt how to play Bloody April Air war of Arras on VASSAL and it still required lots of rule checking and chart checking and manually removing or flipping units etc etc.

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/21/2013 10:12:28 PM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
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From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Wodin is right on....the counters are dragged to move them...there is a dice button to click to roll dice....you have to check the reference cards for the combat charts....eliminated units are dragged off board to another sheet..Plays just like a board game but is set up to work on a computer....definitely no AI....You can playagainst someone else via internet or solitaire..There are a ton of game modules available and I have only checked out a few.....oh yeah..there are no rulebooks supplied from what I have seen ..you need to own the actual game or know the rules already....of course creating your own game is a different story as far as rules go....

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/21/2013 10:32:40 PM >

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/22/2013 3:26:49 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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Status: offline 		Oh well. For what it's worth I've started a beginners book on learning Visual Basic.

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RE: Wingen sur Moder Game Development - 9/22/2013 8:40:05 AM   
sweeteye


Posts: 437
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		I know how you must feel....I really wish I was able to program well myself in order to produce a computer game. I have dabbled with C and C++ languages with only limited success so far....Even worked with Dark GDK which is a program designed to be a shortcut for the C++ language for game making...does a lot of the preliminary setup work for you...I have become bogged down with programming and for the time being am taking a breather from it..Almost feel like going back to college to take some programming classes.When it is all said and done with wargaming for me I really like the old board wargames the best,mainly because of the state of development concerning artificial intelligence..will be interesting to see what the AI in PC games is like ten years from now..With that said I should add that I am just looking for an outlet for my creativity on the computer.....I know eventually I will come back around to working with programming again.

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/22/2013 8:57:03 AM >

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