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unusual a2a kill - 9/19/2013 8:47:47 PM

koniu

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I found that today. F4U vs Ki-45

The President of the United States of America takes pleasure in presenting the Navy Cross to First Lieutenant Robert R. Klingman (MCSN: 0-28160), United States Marine Corps Reserve, for extraordinary heroism and distinguished service in the line of his profession as Pilot of a Fighter Plane in Marine Fighting Squadron THREE HUNDRED TWELVE (VMF-312), Marine Air Group THIRTY-THREE (MAG-33), FOURTH Marine Aircraft Wing, in aerial combat against enemy Japanese forces during the assault on Okinawa, Ryukyu islands, on 10 May 1945. Finding his guns jammed when he closed within firing range of an enemy reconnaissance plane during an extended pursuit at extremely high altitudes, First Lieutenant Klingman persisted in his attacks in the face of heavy fire from the Japanese tail gunner until the propeller of his plane severed a sufficient portion of the tail surface of the hostile plane to destroy it. By his outstanding airmanship, indomitable fighting spirit and courageous devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Klingman prevented the enemy from obtaining valuable photographs of friendly installations, and his gallant conduct upheld the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service

Anyone knew different examples of a2a victories when used weapon wasn't gun fire?

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/19/2013 9:02:17 PM

tocaff

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/19/2013 9:21:26 PM

Amoral

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Wiki has a whole page on it.

The Germans had whole units whose mission was ramming attacks on bombers. It was uncommon, but hardly rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_ramming

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/19/2013 10:40:38 PM

btbw

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quote:

Anyone knew different examples of a2a victories when used weapon wasn't gun fire?

Woman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yekaterina_Zelenko

Night ramming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Talalikhin

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 12:26:11 AM

John 3rd

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Wow. Quite the commendation.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 12:53:22 AM

desicat

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I read the book "I flew for the Fuhrer" several years ago and it tells the story of WWII German fighter pilot Heinz Knoke. I don't have the book handy but here is a snippet from Wiki:

The problem of attacking heavily armed bombers effectively occupied the minds of the Luftwaffe in early 1943. Oberleutnant Heinz Knoke and his friend, Leutnant Dieter Gerhardt (killed in action against B-24s on 18 March 1943), developed the idea of aerial bombing as a means to break up the tight combat boxes, thereby compromising the defensively strong USAAF bomber formations.

Knoke claimed his fifth victory, a B-24 of the 93rd Bomb Group on 18 March over Helgoland. On 22 March, Knoke successfully downed B-17 Liberty Bell, of the 91st Bombardment Group, with a 250 kg bomb, intercepting its return flight from bombing Wilhelmshaven. The B-17 fell into the North Sea 30 kilometres (19 mi) west of Helgoland. He thus became the first of very few fighter pilots in aviation history to down an enemy aircraft with a bomb. All the crew were killed.[3] However, the practice was soon curtailed, as the carriage of 250 kg bombs severely affected the high altitude performance of the Bf 109-G and also made the fighter bombers vulnerable to any escorting fighters.

The bomb broke up the B17 formation and several other bombers were shot down.

The preface to this book is just wonderful to read. It is written by a RAF General and it goes on to reject the seemingly (to Allied forces) incredible "kill" claims credited to German pilots. He tries to insinuate that the contents of the book must be over hyped and are to be taken with a grain of salt at best and that it was most likely as a propaganda piece.

An addendum followed that discussed further research discrediting the RAF statement.

< Message edited by desicat -- 9/20/2013 12:54:53 AM >

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 1:00:32 AM

wdolson

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I read somewhere that a Corsair pilot got a kill using the Pacific Ocean. He dove to the deck with a Zero on his tail and the Zero didn't pull up in time. He was credited with a kill for that.

Rudel the Stuka pilot brought down a Hero of the Soviet Union by flying down a narrow canyon. Rudel managed to zig and zag around all the curves of the canyon and the Soviet pilot didn't quite manage it.

Bill

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 1:52:01 AM

Fallschirmjager

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Were there not some RAF pilots who would match speed with a V-1 and then use their wing to gently tip the flying bomb into the ground? I think they flew the Tempest which was one of the few planes able to have an intercept chance.

I also know the P-61, P-51 and Mosquito also were used but I believe they used guns/cannons

< Message edited by Fallschirmjager -- 9/20/2013 6:15:09 AM >

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 2:05:37 AM

wdolson

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A fast piston engine fighter could catch up with a V-1. When shooting them down proved to be dangerous (the fighter would have to fly through the debris field of a bomb that had just exploded), somebody hit on the idea of flying alongside and flipping them on their backs using the wingtip of the fighter. It worked, but it took a lot of flying skill to match speeds with the V-1 and then get close enough to flip it over.

I believe most of the faster piston engine fighters were used. The Gloster Meteors were used too. One reason they were not deployed to Germany to counter the Me-262s was they were kept home to battle V-1s. The V-1 threat diminished as the Allies moved eastward, but the Germans still controlled a good chunk of the Netherlands and they also used He-111s to launch V-1s.

Bill

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 5:41:23 AM

Cribtop

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I once ran a Bf109 into the White Cliffs of Dover in IL-2 Sturmovik.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 6:11:39 AM

koniu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

A fast piston engine fighter could catch up with a V-1. When shooting them down proved to be dangerous (the fighter would have to fly through the debris field of a bomb that had just exploded), somebody hit on the idea of flying alongside and flipping them on their backs using the wingtip of the fighter. It worked, but it took a lot of flying skill to match speeds with the V-1 and then get close enough to flip it over.

I believe most of the faster piston engine fighters were used. The Gloster Meteors were used too. One reason they were not deployed to Germany to counter the Me-262s was they were kept home to battle V-1s. The V-1 threat diminished as the Allies moved eastward, but the Germans still controlled a good chunk of the Netherlands and they also used He-111s to launch V-1s.

Bill

13 September at age 95 died polish pilot Tadeusz Karnkowski.
He was pilot of No. 316 "City of Warsaw" Polish Fighter Squadron in Great Britain
During 131 missions he score 7.5 kills (including 6 V-1). In time when V-1 was used squadron was flying North American Mustang Mk.III

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 1:09:29 PM

SenToku

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September 15th, 1940.

Pilot Officer Stephenson of 607 Squadron runs into two Dornier Do17 bombers flying in a close formation over Kent, England (this is at height of Battle of Britain). With no time to aim or fire, he slams his Hurricane into them, hiting both of them with his wings. He bales out wounded and is perhaps the only pilot in a world who has two kills in one mission wihtout firing a shot (not sure, but some Japanese "body slammer" might share this record).

Source; Eagle Day by Richard Collier and 607 Squadron official website (Stephenson recovered and later led the 607).

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 4:43:32 PM

catwhoorg

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I seem to recall an Argentinian jet was downed in the South Atlantic trying to avoid a Sea Harrier attack.

I'll have to double check this though.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 6:29:51 PM

oldman45

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I want to say there was a recorded kill in the ETO by a P47 pilot who dove to the deck and the 109 chasing him couldn't pull up in time.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 6:50:22 PM

AW1Steve

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In Vietnam a Skyraider brought down a couple of Migs with Air-to-ground rockets.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/20/2013 7:19:45 PM

SenToku

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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I want to say there was a recorded kill in the ETO by a P47 pilot who dove to the deck and the 109 chasing him couldn't pull up in time.

Reminds me of anecdote of P-40 pilot telling about encounter with Zero.
"Saw a Zero in my tail and dove towards the deck.
Speed 200 and I look back; Still there, so I keep diving.
I hit 300 and look back; Still there, so I keep pushing it.
Finally hit 400 and I look back, Zero is still there, but without his wings...."

Not a clue if that actually happened, but it was told by actual UK combat pilot in an article about Zero, published early 1945.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/21/2013 12:01:01 AM

wdolson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

In Vietnam a Skyraider brought down a couple of Migs with Air-to-ground rockets.

I posted about an instance of this by a P-47N using HVARS in 1945.

One pilot from VT-90 got three and a probable flying TBMs. He was one of the top scorers from AG90.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/21/2013 7:51:48 AM

LoBaron

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Not sure if this qualifies, and at the moment cannot find a source, but wasn�t there an incident in �45 where two Mustangs successfully dogfighted and shot down 2 Red Army LaGGs (?) after the Soviets had misidentified and attacked the 2 USAAF fighters?

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/21/2013 10:35:10 AM

Reg

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Japanese Army Air Force Units and Their Aces: 1931-1945 page 91 states that during November 1944, the Sentai of the Japanese 10th Air Division defending the Home Islands each formed a ram attack section equipped with fighters stripped of armour and armament. They brought down a number of B-29s using ramming attacks and though it was dangerous work it was not completely suicidal.

If my memory serves me, Saburō Sakai narrates in his book "Samurai" how he chased a P-39 up a twisting valley in New Guinea until it crashed into the jungle without him firing a shot.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/21/2013 10:40:32 AM

String

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there was also an instance during first gulf war where an unarmed EA-111 flew an iraqi interceptor into the ground.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/21/2013 10:48:00 AM

Reg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

there was also an instance during first gulf war where an unarmed EA-111 flew an iraqi interceptor into the ground.

You gotta love that terrain following radar.

Set to down on the deck, it would have made the F-111 VERY hard to follow.

< Message edited by Reg -- 9/21/2013 10:53:12 AM >

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/21/2013 11:10:38 AM

wdolson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

Japanese Army Air Force Units and Their Aces: 1931-1945 page 91 states that during November 1944, the Sentai of the Japanese 10th Air Division defending the Home Islands each formed a ram attack section equipped with fighters stripped of armour and armament. They brought down a number of B-29s using ramming attacks and though it was dangerous work it was not completely suicidal.

If my memory serves me, Saburō Sakai narrates in his book "Samurai" how he chased a P-39 up a twisting valley in New Guinea until it crashed into the jungle without him firing a shot.

I don't recall that from Sakai's book. I do recall a similar story from Rudel's book. The plane he downed by outflying it in a canyon was a P-39.

Bill

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/21/2013 11:33:16 AM

Reg

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I haven't read Rudels work so I couldn't have remembered the incident from reading that book.

I don't have a copy of Samurai which I read a while ago so I can't check my reference. However I do recall that Sakai was also disappointed that the performance of the P-39 was so mediocre and it didn't live up to its looks.....

< Message edited by Reg -- 9/21/2013 11:37:10 AM >

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/22/2013 12:19:08 AM

JeffroK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: String

there was also an instance during first gulf war where an unarmed EA-111 flew an iraqi interceptor into the ground.

You gotta love that terrain following radar.

Set to down on the deck, it would have made the F-111 VERY hard to follow.

Someone watch ID4, or Capricorn One, or 633 Sqn, or.........

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/9/2014 3:40:00 PM

wegman58

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If I remember correctly, Martin Caidin's P-38 book (Fork Tailed Devil?) had an incident where a P-38 and a Bf-109 did a head to head and neither pilot pulled out. P-38 survived (badly torn up), Bf-109, not so much.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/10/2014 9:04:43 AM

JeffroK

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Martin Caiden's books show be read with a Salt Cellar handy....

Reading all of these posts makes me think Pierre Closterman's book might be true.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/11/2014 1:23:48 AM

desicat

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On January 12, 1968 a UH-1D Huey piloted by CIA personnel shot down 2 North Vietnamese AN-2 Colt Biplanes over Laos using an AK-47, they ran off 2 others.

Huey kills Colts

< Message edited by desicat -- 9/11/2014 3:35:46 AM >

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/11/2014 2:59:47 AM

geofflambert

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I once dreamed I was flying a Fokker D-7 and I encountered a beagle flying a Neuport. We fought and fought until I ran out of ammunition, and then I woke up with a start.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/11/2014 3:01:41 AM

geofflambert

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I believe that beagle also posts in this forum.

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RE: unusual a2a kill - 9/11/2014 3:08:46 AM

wdolson

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Judge Wolfe of the 333rd FS flying a P-47N on a ground attack mission ended up in a head on attack from a Zero. He fired his HVARs at the Zero mostly to get rid of them and the salvo hit the Zero. Quite possibly the first US aerial missile kill. Wolfe said the Zero just disintegrated.

Bill

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