Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnbmac

I've read every thread i can about research but i didn't see anything about a limit to the total.

It appears that in Scen. 2 Japan has 79 factories researching aircraft. If the best research techniques involve using 6 factories at 30 a/c each it would seem possible to hastily research 13 or 14 a/c types at 180 or so each. But that might take over 200,000 supply points to repair the factories. What's a realistic limit to research?

My initial focus might be:
Zeros
Tojos
Jacks
Georges
Franks
Oscars?
Judys?
Graces?
Frances?
Helens?

Any suggestions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

But that is hard to do in Scenerio 2 as there are more planes being produced and increased number of Squadrons to keep filled. In my Scenerio 2 game, the only engine I had over 500 was the AH-60.

It was the old chicken and egg thing. I needed more planes so incresed production, needed more engines, so made more engines. When my losses increased, needed more planes, so cycle repeats lol.

PDU Off versus On has a major impact as well. I found it is much easier to have 500 engine pools with PDU Off than On since you are restricted in what squadrons can upgrade to what and when with PDU Off. If it is On then you have a lot more Zeros than historically so need a lot more engines.

Well, it's difficult to get the >500 engine research bonus in ALL engine types-and probably not necessary. You should be able to target your most prolific fighter engine type (e.g., the Ha-35 for the A6 lineage) to get that above 500 too. Note in scenario 2, that the Tojo, Oscar and Zeroes use the Ha-35 lines. That's a fine candidate for maximum engine production that also benefits the research of all Ha-35 lineages too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My list of absolutely necessary, ASAP:

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo.
Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent:
A6M5
Helen IIa/IIb
Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start)
Jill

Nice to have:
Jack
Oscar-IV
Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule:
B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway)
G4M2 and beyond
Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON.
After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My list of absolutely necessary, ASAP:

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo.
Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent:
A6M5
Helen IIa/IIb
Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start)
Jill

Nice to have:
Jack
Oscar-IV
Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule:
B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway)
G4M2 and beyond
Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON.
After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

My list of absolutely necessary, ASAP:

Tojo - Oscar is OK, but not great. You need the up-gunned Tojo.
Judy - the Val is very obsolete at war's start. You need the Judy. I build 500 Aichi-60 engines for the R&D bonus, and then build that out as D4Y2's once I begin research on the Y3 (which uses the Ha-33). My plan is to use the 500 D4Y2s until I unlock the D4Y4, which carries an 800kg payload. The Y2's are still pretty fast, so when you upgrade to the Y4 you can use these as kamis, carrying 500kg bombs.

Other must-haves, but not as urgent:
A6M5
Helen IIa/IIb
Frank and George (only in this category because you can't research them as well at the start)
Jill

Nice to have:
Jack
Oscar-IV
Grace

Don't need to research, just let them arrive on schedule:
B6N2a (only difference is radar, not available until 11/44 anyway)
G4M2 and beyond
Frances, Peggy (your Helens and Netties are fine until the historical arrival dates here)

This is all IMHO, and assuming PDU ON.
After this, it's really a matter of personal style and choosing which that arrive

Imho the P1Y1 is a MUST have plane. It used the Ha-45 engine (easy to get it above 500). it's fast and armoured and it's ages Beyond the Betty or the Nell in performances. I'd heavily R&D it.

The J2M is also a must have. You need the J2M line ASAP... consider that the J2M5 is the only 3rd generation fighter that uses the Ha-32 engine...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Quixote
Cannonfodder will probably read this (alas!), but in our PBEM Japan got the bonus for Nakajima 35's within the first 45 days of the game. The Mit 32 bonus came on line the following month. If it's possible to get both of these bonuses within the first 60 days of play without a ton of manipulation, there's really not much mystery to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

My R&D and production system is based mostly on strategic and operative values, with tactical considerations left to third place in importance. This means that plane types engines and service rating and time you get use from plane type (before being obselete or replaced with superior model) are more important to me than actual numerical values of type itself (which are not ignored, of course).

R&D at 6/42;
IJN:
A6M5, B6N1, D4Y1, N1K1-J, P1Y1
IJA:
Ki-43-IIb, Ki-61-Ia, Ki-67-Ia, Ki-84a

1/43;
IJN:
A6M5c, B6N2, D4Y3, N1K1-J, P1Y1
IJA:
Ki-67-Ia, Ki-84a, Ki-100-I

6/43;
IJN:
A7M2, B6N2a, D4Y4, N1K2-J, P1Y2
IJA:
Ki-84r, Ki-100-I(II), Ki-115a

I have noticed that predictions or plans extending after 6/43 will usually fall appart, so I leave planning to 43 only. R&D is concentrated to few models, which I concider vital (mainly bombers and fighters). Not all of these go to production, like Ki-61 or B6N1 and there are a lot of models that go into production, but aren't researched at all (why preform R&D for a transport?). I also don't think Japanese player will lose the war, if he gets H8K2 2-4 months later, thus recons, float-planes and patrols can use older models until the "natural" arrival date. Only D4Y1-C is close of being an expection, but need to R&D the engine and then over build it to get 500 pool has dropped that one from my R&D plan.

Kami models are researched (D4Y4 and Ki-115 are in plan) as Kamikaze is fearsome weapon for Japanese player and should NOT be preformed in some plane found in "the corner of the pool". Proper models for that job are the ones with 800kg bomb and decent pool numbers of those are in my mind essential by 1944.

Especially in Scen 2 the R&D numbers for the models are large and essential planes will arrive quickly. After the "1st Stage", end of 1943, every important bomber and fighter will be in service and R&D is freed to either go into production or start "super-plane" projects for the end-game, like Ki-74-I, Ki-94-II, S1A1 and such. This Last Stage R&D has little value for the game as whole, but might produce few surprises for the opponent (Ki-74 especially has some awesome possibilities built into it).

Some notes;
Production wise I divide the game into stage 1 and stage 2. Offence and defence. Offence production discards the Interceptor (defensive fighter) in favor of Air Superiority Fighter plane (Ki-43 vs. Ki-44). Stage two switches the roles (Ki-100 vs. Ki-43) and also drops the bomber production in favour of fighters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I would like to point out, again, that the only difference between B6N2 and B6N2a is radar. And the B6N2a's radar will not activate until 11/44 regardless of the arrival date of the B6N2a, if my understanding of devices is correct (you can't speed them up). So while it might be worthwhile to research the 2a so that it arrives prior to 11/44 and you have a pool of them built up, there is otherwise no real benefit to researching it earlier than 9/44 or 10/44.

I think it's fine to use "corners of the pools" airframes for kamis. They aren't ideal, but if you're going to have the airframes sitting around anyway... Look at it this way: you've already spent the HI to produce those planes. May as well get some return on that investment, even if it's just eating up CAP ops points, right?

Also, the Oscar-IVs and such with their decent speed and 2x250kg bombs are still good kamis. Nates, on the other hand...if you're using them as kamis you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel, but you're probably in 1946 by then, right? So you won anyway!

I have to disagree about B6N2a. It is worth reserching.

On pure logistical side it goes like this; Presuming, that B6N2a arrives around January 1944 (12/43-3/44) and you upgrade your TB production (realistically around 30-50 planes/mo) immediately to new model and start to upgrading your flying units right away (around 25-30 squadrons, averaging something like 15 A/C per unit = around 400 aircraft) you will be close to done upgrading your units when the radar goes active. All this is free of any supply/HI costs and provided that you built a normal combat loss pool of B6N2 model, you never run short of planes. Thus, when 9/44 turns into 10/44, every frontline squardon is suddenly radar equipped.

Also B6N2a has a heavy defensive machinegun, versus 7.7 mm on B6N2 model = higher gun rating.

Drawback is that you keep few R&D factories tied up, but you will have several others free around same time, so this is not something Japanese needs to worry about, in my opinion.

About Kamis... My personal opinion is that fighters should be used as escort, not kamis when possible. Even if flying with completely green pilots, in obselete crates that are hacked from the sky by Hellcats and Corsairs at will, it is still worth doing as they tie the CAP up for those few minutes they take to die. Buying time and reducing CAP numbers (at least few will run low with ammo) while the kamis with decent bomb load (medium bombers, D4Y4s, Tobedo bombers, Ki-115s) head towards their targets.

Also, I got the idea somewhere that plane's durability affected the Kami damage? Was I wrong?

Edit;typos.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SenToku

Also B6N2a has a heavy defensive machinegun, versus 7.7 mm on B6N2 model = higher gun rating.

Edit;typos.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

quote:


just doesn't matter at all, it could have two of those guns or none, it just won't even save a single of those bombers when being attacked by Allied fighters. You can go through a full PBEM campaign and you will never see a Japanese 1E or 2E bomber shooting down an Allied fighter. Have played something like 30 in game years PBEM so far, watching every combat animation and have never seen it. NEVER.

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Ofcourse I am not a mod but you are taking the subject way of topic Stormwolf.. The OP asks for support/remarks on his research plan. Don't think he wants to talk about attributes that should or should not be updated...

Suggest you open your own topic to discuss it..

pls just don't answer him, that might just invite him to keep on posting...