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Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 4:42:08 PM

Clod100_slith

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/9/2010
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Great game, I loved it! But for me the old Doctrin/SOP feature is missing. I would like to order my units to hold fire or engage certain type of units at a special range. For example, in the Rommel scenario my LEO 1 engaged T72 or T80 on more than 2000m range. For me, it makes no sense. Would be great to give the engagment range to my unit by myself.

Post #: 1

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 4:48:03 PM

cbelva

Posts: 1843
Joined: 3/26/2005
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I felt the same way when I first started beta testing. One of my first questions was, "Hey, why can't I change the SOP like in the original." Because of the way this game is coded and the way the AI works, it was not possible to have the flexible SOP. They are built into the profiles used by each type of units. The AI works better this way. I was bummed at first, but got over it when I saw how much better this game plays than FPG. I have not missed it and the profiles make sense as to how they function. They can be improved upon and we are working to make them work better, and to have more options on how we set them (i.e. allow flexibility in the profile the unit takes when it stopped moving).

(in reply to Clod100_slith)

Post #: 2

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 4:48:37 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
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We know. An SOP is something we are looking to implement when time allows.

Engaging enemy tanks in WWII at 2000 meters makes no sense. In today's world that's much more like an average shot.

There is a point that all games are centered around, how much is sim - how much is game, and this is the point we currently have with FPC. We wanted enough interaction with the game that you are playing it and not just sitting back watching but not enough that the Brigade/Division commander is giving orders to individual tank platoons of what targets to engage at what ranges.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/11/2013 4:52:43 PM >

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Clod100_slith)

Post #: 3

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 5:02:07 PM

Clod100_slith

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/9/2010
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Thanks for the replys. Well, I think I will get used on it. I mean the game is great. Its just a small feature Iam missing, Maybe the profiles will get a little better, as you say. I will wait and see, no problem at all :)

@mad Russian: A Leo 1, even a LEO 1A5, will never engage a modern time tank at a range of 2000m or above. If possible they will wait to engage at a range below 1000m, try to get around for flanking shots or retreat. Even german tanks! :) There are tactical reasons to engage an enemy tank at your max weapon range but that is another story.
Hey guys, and thanks for your superior support!

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 4

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 5:05:32 PM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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We can talk German tanks...the Leo 1 better engage at distance. The armour protection will get the crew killed if they let the Soviets close with them.

The combat models have been played and tested for about 18 months. Over that time we've adjusted them numerous times.

Having said all that, an SOP would be nice and has been in the game before. It was to be in the game now as well but we ran out of time to implement it if we were going to get the game to you guys in 2013.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 5

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 5:07:15 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
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Did I mention that the Germans are the 500 pound GORILLA of NATO!!

They really come to FIGHT!

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 6

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 5:43:34 PM

Clod100_slith

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/9/2010
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HaHa! Will give my best! Have a great weekend!

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Post #: 7

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 5:56:35 PM

SKeeM

Posts: 17
Joined: 5/25/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline

When I was on M1's in the early 90's that was the range we would start engaging at.

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RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 5:58:03 PM

tombo

Posts: 356
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Im also original FPG player..so it looks like ill have to adjust too.
I felt the SOP/doctrine was a key feature...it set engagement range, hold fire (stealth), distance to maintain from enemy (i.e. retreat), etc. Being a "tactical" game this seems appropriate to have. There was a Global SOP too that helped set different platforms SOP and doctrine by nation.

So, how does the game now handle the latter? I.e Do AH just fire as soon as they get in range? Recon retreats from tanks less than 2000m?...

Im just getting started here, so i apologize if this was addressed.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 9

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 6:36:18 PM

Clod100_slith

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/9/2010
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@SKeeM: Well, the mention german tank has no Laser-Rangefinder and such modern thinks like a digital fire control system or a night/bad-weather vision system. The Leo1A5 has it all but not the LEO 1A1.
@tombo. Same for me. I missed the SOP feature also. Example: Platoon LEO 1A1 spotted two companys with T80. Range around 2000m and opened fire. For me it makes more sense to spot, report and do not engage at such range. Mostly the red tanks will kill the old LEO in short time. But, as MR said, its just a game. For me, as a german NCO (WIESEL with TOWII), well hard to take but I can live with it.

(in reply to tombo)

Post #: 10

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 6:47:19 PM

MikeGER

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in the German wiki its reported Leo 1A5 (upgrades happened from Oct 1986 to Sept 1992 so it could have been a A5) average fighting distance day: 2.5 km
and with the WBG-X (thermal camera) upgrade 3km detecting 2km idetification of targets
so 2km at night in FCRS is historical correct

< Message edited by MikeGER -- 10/11/2013 6:56:45 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 6:57:20 PM

Clod100_slith

Posts: 19
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@MikeGER
For the LEO 1A5 you are right.
Iam talking about the scenario The Pied Piper. Iam working with it to get a feeling for the game. There its a LEO1A1A1. Check it: Sensors are IR and Rangefinder are Stadia. Its a great different between LEO1 A5 or A6 and LEO1 A1A1. C

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Post #: 12

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 7:03:14 PM

CapnDarwin

Posts: 8467
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From: Newark, OH
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Guys, there is a "under the Hood" thread I started some time back that gets into some of these numbers issues. You can find it here. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3336894

Once I get free of the modding guide next week, I'll talk in a bit more detail on the whole SOP range issue and why we did what we did for the game. It's not a simple matter of having a dialog like it was in FPG.

Thanks!

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Post #: 13

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 7:07:46 PM

Clod100_slith

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Joined: 12/9/2010
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Ok, thanks. I do not want to bitch around. Its a great game and I loved to play it!

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Post #: 14

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 7:23:26 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Clod100
But, as MR said, its just a game. For me, as a german NCO (WIESEL with TOWII), well hard to take but I can live with it.

Don't think we aren't still looking for ways to improve it both as a game and as a sim.

If you were on WIESEL units then you are in for a surprise in the game.

Also, guys, we don't consider discussions about any aspect of the game to be "bitching". We have been using it for 18+ months. You guys just got it. There are things that you will find that are interesting or questionable to you. We are fine discussing anything you like. As long as the discussions stay civil and not get personal.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 10/11/2013 7:26:55 PM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Hold Fire - 10/11/2013 7:27:13 PM

CapnDarwin

Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
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Clod100,

We want everyone to state there opinion on the game and make suggestions. We love the game, but we know its not 100% perfect. If it was we would not be talking about it right now and also planning out improvements and additional capabilities for the game engine.

Fire away. we'll try to tell you why we did the way it is or why it can't be a certain way or if we may be able to add/change it in the future.