Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Navy? (Baloogan...?)

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Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Navy? (... - 10/7/2013 8:28:13 PM

$trummer

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
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I'm finding this mission very frustrating (but worth repeated attempts). I thought I'd list my problems, challenges and issues, as some pertain to tactics and some to gameplay and a discussion might be of use to other relatively inexperienced players:

- The UK battle group comes with ready-made AAR and ASW missions (Harriers, Lynxes and Sea Kings). The problem is that I do not yet understand how to deploy dipping sonar methodically, i.e. in such a way that I can plot areas in which a range for sonar detection is discernible.

- The battle group needs air cover. The problem is that, with its own Harriers deployed (cotrrectly, I think) in a close-in AAW role, the six available Buccaneers from Lossiemouth have no loiter range at their default altitude of 40,000ft (very high, no?) as part of a BARCAP that I set up to kill incoming Bears, which are the Russian battlegroup's long-range recon.

- I want to control the drop-pattern of the Nimrods sonobuoy deployment but find it haphazard and impossible to influence beyond making a mission box. I want a Nimrod to drop lines of sonobuoys ahead of the Russian fleet's apparent course, i.e. along a "halfway line" between the two fleets. If the withering barrages of incoming ASuW missiles that decimate the UK surface group come from Russian subs, I cannot seem to use either the sonobuoys from the Nimrods or the local dipping sonars to find them because I cannot deploy the sonobuoys tactically and I so not know how to control the dipping sonars.

- The only ways I can think of the avoid getting steamrollered in this mission is to move the two RN nuclear submarine very fast into attacking range of the Russian surface group while simultaneously moving tthe UK group back to the Scottish coast so that the air support from land bases is not at the very end of its fuel range when deployed as a BARCAP. Could this possibly have been the designer's intent? I think not.

- Boy, could I use a flight of Typhoons! How can I take on at least 4 Bears at 40,000ft and about 8 Badger bombers with nothing but 6 elderly Buccaneers with very limited range and no stand-off A2A weapons?

I'm sure the scenario is very beatable with a more competent player as the RN commander. I'd just like to know how, and whether any of the above "issues" are anything but user-error...

Thanks!

< Message edited by $trummer -- 10/8/2013 12:21:05 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/7/2013 8:31:24 PM

Primarchx

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Joined: 1/20/2013
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Not yet. When I first played it there was a problem with the Type 21 FF's endurance. Haven't been back yet.

I will do my next Let's Play on this.

< Message edited by Primarchx -- 10/7/2013 8:42:12 PM >

(in reply to $trummer)

Post #: 2

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/7/2013 10:39:13 PM

$trummer

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Joined: 7/27/2013
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That would be great, Primarchx, thank you!

(in reply to Primarchx)

Post #: 3

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/7/2013 11:10:21 PM

bsq

Posts: 517
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Put 4 'winders' on the Nimrod - world's largest 'fighter' - but then you can't because the load outs don't allow you to in any scenario.

But then you can carry 2 harpoons AND 9 Stingrays? It was either/or... not both, the bomb bay wasn't long enough and that load would be far too heavy for the Nimrod to take off...

(in reply to $trummer)

Post #: 4

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/7/2013 11:55:51 PM

Primarchx

Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
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Just finished recording Part 1; mission review, force set up, initial deployment, first contact with enemy unit. Approx 3hrs in (Game Time) - ~50min video.

quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer

That would be great, Primarchx, thank you!

(in reply to $trummer)

Post #: 5

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/8/2013 12:21:19 AM

$trummer

Posts: 248
Joined: 7/27/2013
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Can't wait to see it. I know I will learn a lot.

(in reply to Primarchx)

Post #: 6

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/8/2013 5:46:48 AM

MR_BURNS2

Posts: 974
Joined: 7/18/2013
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: $trummer

I'm finding this mission very frustrating (but worth repeated attempts). I thought I'd list my problems, challenges and issues, as some pertain to tactics and some to gameplay and a discussion might be of use to other relatively inexperienced players:

- The UK battle group comes with ready-made AAR and ASW missions (Harriers, Lynxes and Sea Kings). The problem is that I do not yet understand how to deploy dipping sonar methodically, i.e. in such a way that I can plot areas in which a range for sonar detection is discernible.

- The battle group needs air cover. The problem is that, with its own Harriers deployed (cotrrectly, I think) in a close-in AAW role, the six available Buccaneers from Lossiemouth have no loiter range at their default altitude of 40,000ft (very high, no?) as part of a BARCAP that I set up to kill incoming Bears, which are the Russian battlegroup's long-range recon.

- I want to control the drop-pattern of the Nimrods sonobuoy deployment but find it haphazard and impossible to influence beyond making a mission box. I want a Nimrod to drop lines of sonobuoys ahead of the Russian fleet's apparent course, i.e. along a "halfway line" between the two fleets. If the withering barrages of incoming ASuW missiles that decimate the UK surface group come from Russian subs, I cannot seem to use either the sonobuoys from the Nimrods or the local dipping sonars to find them because I cannot deploy the sonobuoys tactically and I so not know how to control the dipping sonars.

- The only ways I can think of the avoid getting steamrollered in this mission is to move the two RN nuclear submarine very fast into attacking range of the Russian surface group while simultaneously moving tthe UK group back to the Scottish coast so that the air support from land bases is not at the very end of its fuel range when deployed as a BARCAP. Could this possibly have been the designer's intent? I think not.

- Boy, could I use a flight of Typhoons! How can I take on at least 4 Bears at 40,000ft and about 8 Badger bombers with nothing but 6 elderly Buccaneers with very limited range and no stand-off A2A weapons?

I'm sure the scenario is very beatable with a more competent player as the RN commander. I'd just like to know how, and whether any of the above "issues" are anything but user-error...

Thanks!

You can use the Harriers at longer range, just make sure they dont come to close to the russian fleet.

For sonobuoy patterns in a line define an area and make it as thin as possible(smaller then one sonobuoy sensor radius), they will not drop them outside that area. They will fidget around a little on awkward looking courses, but they will do it.

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/9/2013 7:25:01 PM

bsq

Posts: 517
Joined: 1/5/2007
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There are several issues with the scenario from the UK side that make the tactics from the UK side very hard.

To start with there are database issues for the UK platforms:

Type 22 Batch 2 are towed array frigates. There is no 2031 on them according to the database - believe me, I have stood on the transom of the very ship in the scenario amazed that anyone would be mad enough to thread the array through the guides in anything but a mill pond (but in defence of my RN colleagues I am a 'Crab')

Nimrod MR 2 - the ops loads are incorrect - it cannot carry 9 torpedoes and 2 Harpoons. Do the maths, the whole 'shebang' would be too long for the weapons bay. It's 6 and 1 or 0 and 2 or 9 and 0. They also carry 4 sidewinders - useful against the problematic Bears I would hazard.

Never seen a Buccaneer carry a winder. 4 Sea Eagles and a pannier tank for range is more realistic. That would be 24 missiles for your attacks if you went with that load, a better bet for saturation.

Then there is the fleet layout and aircraft.

Why is the Batch 2 TA Leander with its precious 2031 in the stern goalkeeping station (where its obsolete Sea Cat is as much use as a chocolate fireguard)?
The two lead ships should be the Leander and the 22 B2, with 2031 deployed and employing sprint and drift.
There should be an AAW picket, probably the larger of the 42's
The other 42 and the 22 B1 should be close escorting the CVHG and the RFA.
Why are the ships carrying dummy missiles in wartime - for the tea, medals and 21 gun salute on their return - better they return at all than carry this dead weight into war.
The RFA should be carrying 2 Seaking 5's for extra ASW - it has a deck and a magazine, it should be used else what purpose is it serving?
The initial load out for the Buccs should be 4 x Sea Eagle (concentration of force when the Russian SAG is detected).

Tactics - given the above disposition...

Nimrods patrolling ahead of the MLA looking for submarines and evidence of the SAG.
TA Ships, alternating Sprint and Drift, one Sprinting ahead, whilst the other is on the drift.
Sea Kings leapfrogging close in with the dipping sonars either active or passive depending on whether the subs are getting into range.
SSN arrays streamed and looking for the Russian Subs and the SAG (but primarily the subs as their heavyweights are the best bet for a kill on the subs)
Put the Harriers on CAP, but only take on the Bears if you can do so without losing the CAP by straying too far and into the MEZ of the SAG, especially the S-300 - but then the Slava would need to be going away for that to be in arc.

< Message edited by bsq -- 10/16/2013 10:47:40 PM >

(in reply to MR_BURNS2)

Post #: 8

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/9/2013 8:24:36 PM

$trummer

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Joined: 7/27/2013
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Thanks for a superb analysis that could only have come out of the kind of direct professional experience that is rightly treasured in wargaming communities.

Unless someone else explains how he beat it from the UK side, I'm not going to attempt this mission again until it is modified. The RN has to have effective air cover in this scenario, even accepting that it's pre-Typhoon. I'm not greedy, a flight of Tornado ADVs with a tanker on station would suffice. Harriers can shoot down Bears but, in the CAP role for the UK surface group, this should not be their job. I do not understand why Harriers and Buccs assigned to AAW patrols are defaulted to 40,000 feet. Even using the Buccs to attack the Russian ships by approaching at 200ft, I'm not confident that a single one will get through without my having the air power at least to blind the Bears (not to mention the Badgers).

I need to check if the RN SSNs have ASuW missiles. I don't think they do, which makes using them against the Russian group in the absence of an effective air attack capability to take out the enemy ASW helicopter screen desperate, if not suicidal.

Without decent medium-range air cover and strike capability I don't think this UK group is equipped to take on the Russian force. The best option IRL would have been to wait for the Russian battle group to steam into range of land-based UK strike a/c. I know I misused the Buccaneers when deploying them in an AAW role against the Bears, but unless the target group is closer to the shore and/or they can get on a tanker, I think using them at the edge of their range against a distant, well-defended ASuW target group is suicidal.

I'm happy to be contradicted on any or all if the above. I'm no expert.

< Message edited by $trummer -- 10/9/2013 8:36:42 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/9/2013 9:31:45 PM

Primarchx

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I was wondering about the Type 22 Batch 3 myself...

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Post #: 10

RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/10/2013 1:12:41 AM

mikmykWS

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Thanks guys

Feedback logged. Will take a look.

Mike

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/12/2013 3:31:01 AM

kieferpl

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Joined: 10/6/2013
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I was able to beat the Soviets but the initial setup for the UK CSG is absolute ****.

I recalled all TACAIR and essentially set a ready 7 with a division of Harriers. Harriers are horrible for CAP/DCA, and you only have a limited number, so might as well keep them on deck until you got target. I also recalled all but two Sea Kings on ASW patrols and put out one AEW Sea King; the AEW Sea King is absolutely vital to be placed about ~150 out on the general threat axis to pick up inbound SOV MPRA. Finally, too many "localization + attack" air assets up at problem start and essentially no "search" assets to begin with and this is the major difficulty with the scenario.

First thing to do is figure out the max threat/ACSM employment range which correlates to the Shipwreck, or 300 nm around the CSG. Start by setting up systematic ASW and SUW searches around the CSG at this range with available assets esp. NIMRODs; recommend also not driving the carrier north until you know the battlespace to the north. I kept them going southwest at 5 kts. You'll figure out the SOV CSG position quickly; the danger is the RUS sub threat. Press hard with the NIMRODs and make sure they are spitting and you should find the SOV Oscar II. Take that out and then it become are more straight forward problem. Hope this helps without giving away too much of the fun.

It took me a second time through to wrap my head around the submarine threat. Overall, prolly my favorite scenario so far!

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/16/2013 9:23:34 PM

ComDev

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Okay strike my last on the Nimrod. The next db will have proper loadouts

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/16/2013 9:48:49 PM

ComDev

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Will take a look at the scenario issues.

As for Sidewinders on Buccaneers, they seem to have carried these regularly?

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=394.0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Buccaneer
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/3AC02399_5056_A318_A80E797F13FE91F1.jpg
http://www.blackburn-buccaneer.co.uk/Pages1_files/Technical_files/AttackModes.html
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/buccaneer/xx895profile.jpg
http://tedtaylor.hobbyvista.com/34-airfix-buccaneer/page-34.html
http://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/forsgren_buccaneer_01.jpg

< Message edited by emsoy -- 10/16/2013 9:49:46 PM >

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/16/2013 9:59:01 PM

Primarchx

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My video had sound issues (my headset is awful!). Managed to avoid the initial Recon Bear sweep by shooting them down. Am planning a Bucc Sea Eagle strike on the Sov SAG soon.

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/16/2013 10:05:09 PM

ComDev

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Also updated Type 22 Batch 2. Thanks!

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/16/2013 10:45:22 PM

bsq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

My video had sound issues (my headset is awful!). Managed to avoid the initial Recon Bear sweep by shooting them down. Am planning a Bucc Sea Eagle strike on the Sov SAG soon.

Split axis attack - if the 300F is modeled correctly (the 300P appears to be I must say) it can only shoot in one direction

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 10/22/2013 7:26:02 PM

bsq

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Just went to try it again as there are now two TA ships on the UK side. This time I noticed that HMS Manchester is listed as a 42 B2 - she was in fact a 42 B3. This would give the RN 16 more Sea Dart missiles overall.

(in reply to bsq)

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 2/17/2014 6:35:46 PM

mikmykWS

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Ok finally got to updating this scenario which hopefully should appear in 1.03. Thanks all for the helpful input.

Mike

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 2/17/2014 7:22:52 PM

Werewolf13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Thanks guys

Feedback logged. Will take a look.

Mike

^
^^^
Just change the name of the scenario to "Kobyashu Maru".

Then it would all make sense.

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RE: Has anyone beaten "Duelists" as Royal Nav... - 2/18/2014 10:52:59 AM

Flankerk

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The scenario is definitely winnable mind, I actually find that the biggest issue is the Tigerfish Torpedo. In a way thats your main attack as RN and its not exactly as good as a Spearfish for the attack.
If the submarines can do the damage then follow up attacks will complete the task much easier.

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Post #: 21