443 Smart unguided Rockets?

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443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 6:58:54 AM

MR_BURNS2

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443
Operation Vantage
Iraqi Venom fires 3 inch Rockets at my formation, my formation turns right, and the unguided Rockets seem to turn with them. You can see their flightpath changing laterally, they fan out and track my Scimitars.
Savegame and screenshots uploaded.

Seems to be the same problem as here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3432050

The ammo is cheating!

Attachment (1)

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 8:12:53 AM

Dimitris

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Works As Designed. This is part of the principle: "Once unguided ammo is in the air, no micromanagement should allow you to cleanly dodge it."

As an aside, we first saw this being implemented in "Mech Commander 2", for the very same reason. We recognized its significance and adopted it

.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 10/14/2013 8:13:58 AM >

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 1:40:49 PM

MR_BURNS2

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Wow, thats gross...
I kinda can see your point though, i suppose you work more with some kind of random probability of hit engine. But i think it�s effect is exaggerated in this air to air example.
1 Aircraft fired several salvos at 4 aircraft at different positions, 10 to 20k feet below, at the same time, this couldn't possibly work, and even for one target the Ph would be remote at best.

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 1:44:56 PM

Primarchx

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It's an artifact of the underlaying to-hit mechanism. It's particularly freaky when the target of the gunfire is teleported away!

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 1:47:57 PM

Dimitris

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It's not perfect, far from it, but it beats having the player have an incentive to micromanage the precise movement of his units in order to get them to dodge gunfire etc.

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 1:51:25 PM

Primarchx

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Absolutely! I really like the gunfire effects as they are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

It's not perfect, far from it, but it beats having the player have an incentive to micromanage the precise movement of his units in order to get them to dodge gunfire etc.

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 1:52:41 PM

ExMachina

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This abstraction makes sense with aircraft, but not with ships. Ship-to-ship gunfire (at range) has historically included a lot of micromanagement (speed changes and chasing shell splashes), actions that are theoretically within the time scale of CMANO. So does this mean that any ballistic weapon is essentially a homing weapon?

< Message edited by ExMachina -- 10/14/2013 1:57:29 PM >

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 2:07:50 PM

Primarchx

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I'm not sure what effect speed and course changes have on the ballistic model. But Command is (technically) an operational-level game - ie, the player is giving orders from the CIC, not a tactical-level game - ie, the player is giving orders from the bridge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExMachina

This abstraction makes sense with aircraft, but not with ships. Ship-to-ship gunfire (at range) has historically included a lot of micromanagement (speed changes and chasing shell splashes), actions that are theoretically within the time scale of CMANO. So does this mean that any ballistic weapon is essentially a homing weapon?

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 2:18:01 PM

Dimitris

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Mid-engagement course changes don't have an effect on accuracy ATM but target speed, firing unit speed and (in the case of the firing unit being a ship) sea state do (in addition to other factors like fire-control director tech level, jammed etc.). All these parameters come into play only if you enable detailed gunfire control, though.

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 2:41:00 PM

Primarchx

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Cool! Thanks for the insight, D!

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/14/2013 5:18:01 PM

ExMachina

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quote:

Mid-engagement course changes don't have an effect on accuracy ATM but target speed, firing unit speed and (in the case of the firing unit being a ship) sea state do (in addition to other factors like fire-control director tech level, jammed etc.). All these parameters come into play only if you enable detailed gunfire control, though.

Good to know. Thanks.

Out of curiosity, why is the detailed gunfire control an option? Is there ever a case where it would be undesirable?

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/15/2013 5:57:48 AM

MR_BURNS2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

It's not perfect, far from it, but it beats having the player have an incentive to micromanage the precise movement of his units in order to get them to dodge gunfire etc.

So are you working on improving this somehow? Giving unguided WW2 Rockets a higher Pk then some modern AAMs(not to speak of older AAM) is pretty ridiculous.

Would be nice if all this would be optional for the player or the scenario creator if possible.
If he wants to do a little micro-management, let him.

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/15/2013 6:30:09 AM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

It's not perfect, far from it, but it beats having the player have an incentive to micromanage the precise movement of his units in order to get them to dodge gunfire etc.

So are you working on improving this somehow? Giving unguided WW2 Rockets a higher Pk then some modern AAMs(not to speak of older AAM) is pretty ridiculous.

This has nothing to do with Pk. Unguided ordnance exhibit this behavior no matter if their Pk is 0% or 100%.

Exactly which unguided weapon's Pk do you have an issue with?

quote:

Would be nice if all this would be optional for the player or the scenario creator if possible.
If he wants to do a little micro-management, let him.

The problem then becomes that you are altering fundamental sim mechanics per player. Imagine the support nightmare that this will create.

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/15/2013 1:38:46 PM

MR_BURNS2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

This has nothing to do with Pk. Unguided ordnance exhibit this behavior no matter if their Pk is 0% or 100%.

Exactly which unguided weapon's Pk do you have an issue with?

The one i started this thread about, 1 Venom launches 4 bursts of 3 inch rockets at 4 different targets from 40000 feet.
The targets are between 10000 and 20000 feet below them, and 1 of the bursts hit.

A newer sidewinder would be lucky if it hit under these circumstances, and you could never fire at more than 1 target at the same instant.

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RE: 443 Smart unguided Rockets? - 10/15/2013 3:05:22 PM

Dimitris

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OK, so this is not about Pk's at all, but for the physical constraints of unguided weaponry such as rockets. We can do something about this. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!

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