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Physical Only ? - 10/21/2013 8:40:22 PM

DBeves

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Given no one from matrix saw fit to answer.

This game can only be bought in physical form. Is that correct ? What is the reasoning behind not offering a digital version ?

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/21/2013 9:02:49 PM

Numdydar

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The manuals are the reason.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/21/2013 11:13:52 PM

wodin

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I presume that the designers of World in Flames wouldn't want a PC version that does everything the boardgame does for a fraction of the price. It would probably finish off the boardgame. So to combat this I reckon they have stipulated printed manuals, physical copy of game only with no PDF for rules and then charge a similar price to the actual boardgame. The game I presume is to be seen as a easy to transport and set up WIF where the actual PC takes the place of all those counters and the boards etc..and also it has rules built in. I don't think this is supposed to be seen as a "PC Game" in he usual sense of the word.

< Message edited by wodin -- 10/21/2013 11:19:07 PM >

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/22/2013 12:00:46 AM

scout1

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Out of curiosity, what was the last "new" release that Matrix did which was a "physical" only version ?

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/22/2013 12:08:17 AM

WIF_Killzone

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IMHO, I think its a class act to publish a hardcopy, I have often looked forward to purchasing a game only to find a cd/dvd/download contained in a giant box. I will happily pay the $199 (my guess) to have it, and the maps, bonus. Can't buy class, your born with it.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/22/2013 4:18:11 AM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I presume that the designers of World in Flames wouldn't want a PC version that does everything the boardgame does for a fraction of the price. It would probably finish off the boardgame. So to combat this I reckon they have stipulated printed manuals, physical copy of game only with no PDF for rules and then charge a similar price to the actual boardgame. The game I presume is to be seen as a easy to transport and set up WIF where the actual PC takes the place of all those counters and the boards etc..and also it has rules built in. I don't think this is supposed to be seen as a "PC Game" in he usual sense of the word.

Correct. You have to remember that ADG still is going to want to sell physical copies of their games. So a computer version will have to be seen as augmentation, not a replacement.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/22/2013 9:30:22 AM

captskillet

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I think from what Shannon said in another thread is that the only option to buy will be physical copy + download.

quote:

Only a physical copy will be available for purchase. Those who buy the game will be able to download it immediately, with the manuals arriving in the mail later.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/23/2013 9:11:40 PM

DBeves

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Well thanks for the opinions - but I wonder why matrix themselves are reluctant to say why.

I have bought pretty much every wargame there is - but I am getting the feeling this will be, even for me, way too expensive to justify a purchase.

I am estimating with physical only hardbound books and postage etc its going to be at least three times as expensive as any other game I have ever bought - and I own steel beasts pro...

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 12:31:28 AM

Dorb

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My best Guesstimate $250.00.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 12:13:10 PM

wodin

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I think anywhere between $150 and $200.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dorb

My best Guesstimate $250.00.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 1:15:21 PM

IainMcNeil

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Hi guys

the manuals are such a big part of the package that it doesn't make sense to have the game without them physically. The way it works is you'll be able to download the game as normal when you buy but there will not be an option to buy the download alone.

To give you an idea of pricing we are selling the PC Game, 3 Hardback books and the 21 x 9 foot map in a package for just �150 at Essen.

This is discounted on the final price but indicative of it. If you think about the cost of a new hard backed game book - usually ~$40 each plus the cost of a printed map at that size - At least $100 and probably up to $400, the value for money on the physical part of the game is unbelievable. The physical items alone could have been valued at $200-$400.

Then add in that you are getting the PC game too and I think you'll agree this is an amazing amount of value for money!

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 2:00:18 PM

captskillet

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Understand up to a point..........I have dual monitors, I can have the pdf of the manuals open on one screen and the game on another plus I have a relatively cheap way of getting the manuals printed (if I so desire) much cheaper than the $200 or $300 value of having hardbound manuals sitting around gathering dust when I'm not playing and since the game does all the heavy lifting as per rules enforcement why do you force people to buy 3 hardbound books and a 21' foot map that wont get unfolded. BTW manuals are a big part of every game not just this one. Think you are missing the boat by not giving the buying public the 'option' to buy without maps and hardbound books.

< Message edited by captskillet -- 10/24/2013 2:06:54 PM >

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 2:28:01 PM

boshar

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The problem with boardgames is that when you have the complete rules and scenarios in PDF you can play the game. Just use Vassal or Cyberboard and you can play cheap, on line and free of charge. That is why you will always need a manual or scenario book to play the game. When those manuals are out in the open the boardgame will lose sales.

A price around 150 Euro without maps sounds good to me. Just make sure the UK copy is shipped via Slitherine or there will be a lot of disappointed EU fans. (those import duty charges are insane).

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 2:54:38 PM

captskillet

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What about people that already own the boardgame, I assume they already have printed copies of the manuals, why would they want another copy. I just think 'making' a customer buy something one way only isn't right (remember the customer is aiways right). I would be more than happy to shell out $125 or so for a download only option (hey I want ADG, Matrix & Steve to make some coin) WITP-AE is $95 with a pdf of a 300+ page manual which is just as important as the manuals for this game. I may still shell out the bucks but I doubt very seriously if the hardcover books or 21' map ever get a peak from me as my 2 23" monitors will display the pdf of the manuals with game open just fine, Hell if I want open a volumes of rules I'll just break out my old copies of ASL or The Longest Day or better yet order a physical copy of the board game.

PS......Boshar that comes with a 21'x9' map and 3 printed manuals

PS pt2......Iain states that the 21' map is optional and should cut the cost in half so's $125 looks about right......mucho better looks like another sale!!!!!

< Message edited by captskillet -- 10/24/2013 3:07:19 PM >

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 3:11:15 PM

IainMcNeil

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As I understand it there is no definitive rule book like this which combines everything together. Beta testers will be able to answer that better than me! :)

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 3:40:26 PM

Grotius

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The three manuals that ship with MWIF are different than the manuals for the board game. The MWIF manuals indicate how and when MWIF deviates from the board game. For example, the MWIF map is different from those in the boardgames, and this affects things like measuring distance, the scale of the map in China, etc. Some chit pulls work a bit differently in MWIF. MWIF implements many but not all optional rules from various expansions. There are many other small deviations like that.

In addition, the manuals contain info on MWIF's interface, menus, mouse clicks, hotkeys, and so forth. Obviously, this stuff does not appear in the rules as written.

On top of all that, the first two manuals (the "player's guides") contain detailed strategy suggestions that I've found invaluable. I've been beta-testing the game for five years, but I've never played the boardgame, so I've learned the game from MWIF. The player manuals help you understand strategic and tactical tradeoffs, not just the game mechanics. For example: why you would want to use a ground strike rather than a ground support mission; what you should consider when deciding which units to scrap; how to handle the Commonwealth Navy; how to manage U.S. entry; and many other things.

The third manual, the "Rules as Coded," tells you what the rule is -- and, if applicable, indicates how it might deviate from the Rules as Written.

When I play MWIF, I am constantly consulting the three manuals.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 6:00:15 PM

brian brian

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I will buy this game. I want the map, but ONLY that physical part, whereas others will never, ever, ever want to own it. I buy anything and everything connected to World in Flames. I'm not concerned about the price regardless of configuration, I want to support the people who work on this game system. I even donated content into those hardbound books.

But forcing someone in the 21st century to pay for paper and shipping that paper around is very ... 20th Century and makes me upset and an unhappy customer. I want the game more than I want to protest that. But others won't look at it that way.

You are already losing potential customers as PCs are abandoned for tablets and you should look into making sure this game plays well on a tablet connected to a PC acting as a server actually running the game, ASAP. Forcing purchasers to receive all that paper will lose you other customers. People are embracing purchasing digital content because it stores well. I don't need any more physical content of anything any more, I have more than enough.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 6:34:32 PM

Numdydar

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You have to remember brian that ADG also still wants to sell the board game too. That is also a major reason for a physical version only of the game. This was the best compromise that ADG and Matrix to satisfy both companies. if everything was digital, then any remaining sales of the board game would rapidly go to zero. At least this way ADG still can sell a few more copies of the board game versus none at all.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 6:57:03 PM

captskillet

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I probably will need to consult the manuals some too but I dont need printed copies when I have Adobe Acrobat on my comp and the game comes with PDF copies of the manuals (I assume) and dual monitors. I have bought 25 or more Matrix titles and have yet to buy a physical copy of any of them.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 7:42:52 PM

DBeves

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Hi guys

the manuals are such a big part of the package that it doesn't make sense to have the game without them physically. The way it works is you'll be able to download the game as normal when you buy but there will not be an option to buy the download alone.

To give you an idea of pricing we are selling the PC Game, 3 Hardback books and the 21 x 9 foot map in a package for just �150 at Essen.

This is discounted on the final price but indicative of it. If you think about the cost of a new hard backed game book - usually ~$40 each plus the cost of a printed map at that size - At least $100 and probably up to $400, the value for money on the physical part of the game is unbelievable. The physical items alone could have been valued at $200-$400.

Then add in that you are getting the PC game too and I think you'll agree this is an amazing amount of value for money!

Fine Iain - but I dont get the mystery - why cant you just tell people how much the game will cost - when released, without the maps. You are simply generating a lot of confusion and conjecture. I dont accept the reason you give for physical only - the manuals are just as readable for people in PDF format as they are in a hard bound book. You may have a reason for it, fine - but thats not it. Even if the price is super premium I will likely buy it if it is indeed half the price of the game at essen with the maps - but given the confusion around what that means - I have no idea if it is.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 8:03:49 PM

juntoalmar

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But as far as I can remember we were told that a PDF version of the rules & manuals will be included with the game, right? It's far easier and faster to search through the rules when they are digital (and you can underline and add comments to the PDF without spoiling the original book).

Besides that, you can download the rules directly from ADG's official site, so I don't see the problem with people using them to play in Vassal and so...

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 8:04:46 PM

Erik Rutins

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Please see my reply here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3447896

There is indeed a PDF version of all the documentation included on the DVD and customers who purchase WIF will also get a download link, but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 10/24/2013 8:07:52 PM >

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 8:32:50 PM

shaddock

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Keep in mind there will be a mix of younger and older folk buying this game. And while the younger crowd might be very comfortable using only PDFs, us old fogies aren't.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 8:42:58 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Keep in mind there will be a mix of younger and older folk buying this game. And while the younger crowd might be very comfortable using only PDFs, us old fogies aren't.

For example: as a beta tester, I used a printed copy of RAW out of my boxed WiF game for reverences to the rules. I know, there is a PDF also somewhere in MWIF, but I've almost never looked at it.

I know, I'm oldfashioned...

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 8:46:39 PM

captskillet

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heres one semi-old fogey (57) that has no problem using pdf files.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 8:58:26 PM

hondo1375

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

... but we feel that the physical aspect is too important to this release to separate it from the release.

Could you explain this some more, as I don't really understand the reasoning behind it? Shouldn't you let the customer decide this, and make the manuals optional? Personally, I don't buy physical books at all now, and only use pdfs or ebooks (and these are usually long, complicated academic books). Having hardback books doesn't add any value to someone who isn't interested in them, and just adds to the cost of an already premium priced game.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 9:25:28 PM

Minority Report

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This is a really unpleasant news that we must buy the books to get the game. For those like me who could not care less about having the books, we will have to spend an extra $60 to $80 for those books (maybe more).

After waiting patiently for over 15 years to get a computer version of WIF (that actually works), and about 10 years for Matrix to have it done, everything comes down to a cheesy marketing gimmick to increase margins!

Well, I guess I have to continue waiting until Matrix sees the light, as at this point it does not make much of a difference to wait another year or two.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 9:54:50 PM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Minority Report

This is a really unpleasant news that we must buy the books to get the game. For those like me who could not care less about having the books, we will have to spend an extra $60 to $80 for those books (maybe more).

After waiting patiently for over 15 years to get a computer version of WIF (that actually works), and about 10 years for Matrix to have it done, everything comes down to a cheesy marketing gimmick to increase margins!

Well, I guess I have to continue waiting until Matrix sees the light, as at this point it does not make much of a difference to wait another year or two.

I don't think it's a marketing gimmick...I don't believe that...but neither do I believe for a second that it's about the "physical product"

I believe that the manuals have cost enough to have to warrant making sure what they get printed they sell - and that's a one to one sale. Otherwise, doing it any other way (offering digital download with PDF - something they have ALWAYS offered), they would have to a) buy the manuals in bulk to keep the price manageable and hope they sell them or b) charge more for the manuals and print them on a request basis. Either way - it's not about the "physical product" - if that was the case, and they seem to be catering for the boardgamers when talking about the physical product, then they would have the manuals as a side product in the same way they have the map as a separate product for the boardgamers.

Gamers who have never played the game before (of which I am one) couldn't really give a rats about the errata or the differences between the boardgame and the computer game. The product, and the way it's packaged is geared towards the boardgamers of the game.

That's not a criticism - but I'm not buying the excuse given.

The game and the manuals look great by the way.

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/24/2013 10:32:35 PM

wodin

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The reason is obvious. ADG wont want a PC game that would cost a fraction of what the boardgame costs..it would finish off the boardgame which looking at it is struggling as they have difficulty in getting enough preorders for expansions.

So this would have been part of the contract on how it would be sold. Like the boardgame but you get a CD rather than playing pieces. Obvious really when you think about it.

The game has been made purely with the current boardgame players in mind..I doubt anyone else would pay that sort of money out on a game with no AI and three printed manuals. To the current boardgame players it is still a mouth watering proposition even at this sort of cost. To non WIF players I doubt many will take the plunge.

< Message edited by wodin -- 10/24/2013 10:38:09 PM >

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RE: Physical Only ? - 10/25/2013 1:03:59 AM

WIF_Killzone

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Some of these posts seem ridiculous to me. So you don't have a job, or have other priorities, then don't buy the game, buy food instead. This is a premium game and priced accordingly, for the first release.

1) don't want the maps, don't buy them--nuff said
2) Want to buy the game cheaper, without hard covers, wait before you purchase
3) Are excited about the game, would like the hard cover, which most likely only be available for a short time, buy it now before card covers run out
4) If you want the game, and have the money, but don't want the maps, buy it, wrap the hard covers in plastic and sell them on ebay a year from now when they are longer available, buy food stamps and send them to the naysayers in this thread

To me, the post "... The three hardbound volumes + maps will be at a lower price (about half) than the Essen package ($150E) which includes the maps..." is a good news story. Under the price point I thought I would be buying for and I get the hardcovers!!!

There is an incredible amount of value in this game, I have bought games previously that never lived up to marketing hype and have paid at least half, I don't think that is the case here.

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