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Solitare versus an AI - 10/27/2013 7:07:14 PM

Numdydar

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I see that a number of people still find it hard to buy a game (especially at this price point) that does not have an AI. I too thought the same way. For those that care to look, you can find my name attached to all sorts of rants in the When thread that clearly show how I felt about this development. So I totally understand this viewpoint.

The 'Hell no, we won't buy' group because there is no AI may be (I do stress may) be those that never had to play these types of games in physical form, i.e. actual physical maps and counters, solitare if they wanted to play them at all. So for this group, not having an AI is a big deal.

The 'AI? We don't need no stinking AI.' group did play these kinds of games by ourselves. Either because no one was around that was willing to play or it was hard to get togeather often enough to play. From my personal experience, the first applied more than the later

. So this group is more accepting of not having an AI because we have the experience of, while not as fun as playing against another person, it was still enjoyable in its own right.

Unfortunately, the second group cannot do much to convience the first group, that if they like the subject matter, the game will still be 'fun' even without an AI. The various AARs that are being posted shows how someone can play the game solitare and still have fun. However, that is still not enough.

So we have to accept that for some time there are going to be seperate groups on the forum, those that will not support the game because there is not AI and those that do not care as much. As long as we reconize that we hopefully can all remain friends

Personally I think those that have to wait for an AI will be losing out on a great experience. It took me quite a while to come around to accepting not having an AI at release too. But then I realized that the AI in games had really spoiled me

. After all, there is no better opponent than yourself. If you don't like a result, reroll. Want the Russians to have their defensive line at the Urals, no problem. So playing on your own allows YOU to try all sorts of wild and crazy ideas that even against an AI you may or not be able to do. Or you can just do dumb things because you forgot what side you really were playing

So not having an AI is not the worst thing that could happen. Even though I too thought so once. Just saying before you write the game off because there is no AI, you might want to rethink it a little bit

. If you still decide you have to have an AI, that is fine. Hopefully the WiF community over the next year or so, through play of the game and suggestions to Steve, we can make the best AI ever made for the game. I do know it will not be for lack of effort

Post #: 1

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/27/2013 7:44:28 PM

Mynok

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Spent countless hours playing board games solitaire, from Squad Leader to WiF.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/27/2013 7:51:10 PM

ACMW

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I have been reading these lists for about 6 or 7 years and am posting at the rate of about 1 post per annum. About half my posts have been re the AI. I am truly a one trick pony.

From my perspective I care not whether there is AI. The assistance that the electronic version will give to the management of this wonderful brute of a game is worth its weight - and worth the wait.

And as for the price? Within reason I will pay whatever it costs. Outwith reason I probably still will pay.

(in reply to Numdydar)

Post #: 3

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/27/2013 9:05:54 PM

chemkid

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.

< Message edited by chemkid -- 4/25/2018 8:07:22 AM >

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/27/2013 11:08:46 PM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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Solitaire WiF can be great. I have about 10 years of solitaire experience.....

Unfortunately, at least for me though, I'm kind of sick of playing myself. That being said, I don't really want to play the AI either; I have deep seated doubts as to whether or not any AI will be able to play at the sort of level that I'd find challenging. (I'm sorry, I'm tooting my own horn here, but there it is.)

I'm getting this game to play other people. To me actually, the first release not having true multiplayer, and forcing you into 1v1 matches, is more distressing than not having an AI.

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Post #: 5

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 3:38:07 AM

Numdydar

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Just think of NetPlay as you having some friends come to your home to play a game

Plus you do not even have to clean up and supply munches lol. A real win-win if you ask me

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Post #: 6

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 3:43:10 AM

DSWargamer

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As much as I have to admit, a choice is really just a choice.

If they get around to making an AI for WiF, I suppose it might lead to a few sales. I just hope when they get their precious AI they remember they demanded it, it was delivered, and when it is as unchallenging as I say it will be, they are at least capable of accepting I was right, and they not spend a long span of time demanding patches and fixes and improvements as if that is going to actually make any difference :)

The fact that bard games still sell, is about all the evidence really needed actually, to prove that board games are likely still a very viable way to play good wargames. To me, a game that can NOT be played solo me vs me is a no sale. Sure, put in an AI for those that can't play solo vs themselves if you can, but, make the AI an option that can be cut out of the process.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 3:44:53 AM

Zorachus99

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Just think of NetPlay as you having some friends come to your home to play a game Plus you do not even have to clean up and supply munches lol. A real win-win if you ask me

My buddy and I used to drive 60 miles every weekend to play face-to-face and drive home in the middle of the night.

Expensive death-defying antics will be relegated to my desk and the chance of falling off my chair, not asleep at the wheel.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 3:49:00 AM

Neilster

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I think there will be a significant increase in sales when the AI is available. People who buy computer games expect an AI.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 9

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 2:50:35 PM

Alejo1968

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Spent countless hours playing board games solitaire, from Squad Leader to WiF.

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Post #: 10

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 3:42:08 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
If they get around to making an AI for WiF, I suppose it might lead to a few sales. I just hope when they get their precious AI they remember they demanded it, it was delivered, and when it is as unchallenging as I say it will be, they are at least capable of accepting I was right, and they not spend a long span of time demanding patches and fixes and improvements as if that is going to actually make any difference

Uh-huh. Just as long as you and others also remember to at least be capable of accepting you were wrong and to eat crow when players start commenting about how competitive and challenging the computer opponent turns out to be.

For the many casual players who just so happen to NOT be WiF boardgame veterans with a couple decades of playing experience under their belts, an unrelenting AI that knows all the rules and plays a decent game without making mistakes might just prove itself a worthy opponent and lead to quite a few sales. Until then, my not-so-worthy solitaire opponent (ie, me) will not know all the rules and will make as many mistakes along the way as I do.

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Post #: 11

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 4:18:08 PM

vonRocko

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One of the main reasons for computer wargames (for me) was being able to play without needing another person. If I want to play myself, I could use the actual boardgame. Outside of saving space, I see no reason to buy this.

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Post #: 12

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 4:26:12 PM

DSWargamer

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Just because a gamer IS as lousy as a lousy AI, does not make the AI better, it just means the player will get trashed by just about any other human :)

It's a sad truth, that there is currently no such thing as a decent AI, merely games that mask the fact under a sea of number crunching that the human is not as capable of crunching as a machine.

Then again, my father could run a string of 8 digit sums past his eyes at the speed of a freight train (as that was what he was watching, and he could tell you any of those 8 string numbers such that is you asked him to state the 23 out of say 50, he could do it casually.

My brother to my annoyance, can do ordinary math ie add subtract multiply and divide in his head as fast as you can punch numbers into a calculator for common calculations.

The reason I can enjoy Civilization V is not because the AI is smart, but because until discovered, I have no idea what precisely the AI will be doing in its bland and ordinary fashion. So maybe it is zigging when I guessed zagging, maybe it is all military, when I figured it was going non military. But in a fully disclosed map nothing hidden, the game would suck, no challenge, the AI simply can't mimic thought.

AIs are merely calculating massive sums of equations at mechanically fast speeds, and then picking choices without any real thought. AIs can't do deceit, they can't lie. There is no such thing as a fair fight vs the AI, it is never capable of being my equal. All I can do is bias the game in favour of the AI, give it better costs, better combat ratings. I consider a fair fight me vs the AI in a game of Civilization as me vs 18 AI opponents. Essentially I am 18 times better than any one AI.

The only reason AI exists in games is money. If 70% of the audience says no sale without an AI, you give them an AI :)
There's no point in making a great game, and being unable to sell it all because there was no AI.

I am just one of the no sales if the game is unable to be played without the AI.
I prefer another human opponent for the randomness of it not being all my ideas.
Some of the best gaming I have had over the years has been as a result of a newcomer doing something totally new that no one had thought of previously, and it working :)
Games that must be played vs the AI though, I consider them a waste of time let alone cash. I wouldn't want the titles for free.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 4:30:35 PM

DSWargamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

One of the main reasons for computer wargames (for me) was being able to play without needing another person. If I want to play myself, I could use the actual boardgame. Outside of saving space, I see no reason to buy this.

For me it is entirely about space. That and the manuals being unified should permit a comprehensive design. I have the board game. Only reason it isn't in use is basically the same reason I don't own Europa series. Fire in the East is 6x8 and only till 43. I mean, how many people really have a 6x8 table? And just the thought of what that does to your back.

I'm not able to play my A3R enough as well. I also wonder if I was nuts buying the HASL modules (ok more money than brains, guilty as charged :) ).

To me, a computer is a tool, not a companion.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 5:12:38 PM

pzgndr

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This senseless banter is yet another datapoint in my observations that some (not all) anti-AI zealots go out of their way to criticize any and all AI as well as bully other players who prefer playing computer wargames versus a computer opponent because that's exactly what the power of the computer offers the wargaming community. However, rarely if ever does anyone ever try to insist upon games that must be played versus an AI (there aren't that many but some such as Hannibal: Rome and Carthage in the Second Punic War, Armageddon Empires, and others have proven to be pretty darn good games) and provide vocal resistance to any developers providing pbem, TCP/IP, hotseat or other means for players to have real live human opponents, deceitful liars and cheats and quitters notwithstanding.

Yo customers, attention! If you want to buy this or any other game then buy it; if you don't then don't. However you choose to play with your game (and it is JUST a game), please enjoy it. But please do not presume to think that however you choose to enjoy your game, your hobby, your entertainment or whatever you do, that it must be "your way or the highway" and nobody else has a right to enjoy these games differently. Carry on.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 5:53:04 PM

ETF

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I think there will be a significant increase in sales when the AI is available. People who buy computer games expect an AI.

Cheers, Neilster

You are so correct.....I never understand. Playing CPU wargames since the early 80's and I have NEVER seen an AI worth much....at best possibly a intermediate player (Very high end games maybe CIV5) most of the time it is only good for tutorials and rudamentary moves. AI's take up HUGE programming time. Rather have a better overall MP prodcut. Who enjoys painting the map "red" with AI bashing......good for our ego's maybe but that is it.

Once you play with some great people on line they can be your virtual friends for decades.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 5:57:47 PM

gw15

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Civilization IV is the best AI I have ever played. Play random continents with 7 AI opponents with a high setting and it will be very hard. It moves smart and knows how to handle navy and air.
I love the mouse wheel zoom and how smooth it is. Not many games seem to duplicate it.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 6:01:43 PM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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Chess.

Has Rybka ever lost a classical time controls game to a human?

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 6:32:30 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

Sure, put in an AI for those that can't play solo vs themselves if you can, but, make the AI an option that can be cut out of the process.

This.

I hope Steve puts this in his 'things to do' for version 2.0 so that playing against an AI is optional so that you can still play 'me vs me' games

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 8:02:56 PM

Schnaufer

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I would prefer any AI versus knowing what I am going to do each turn because I know all the moves I just made as the opposition.
Have played board games solo, sure it's better than not playing, but not much.
Just my opinion, although I have been riding the hype train on this title for years already so a little jaded.
Have a good one all

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/28/2013 8:06:52 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bommerrang

Civilization IV is the best AI I have ever played. Play random continents with 7 AI opponents with a high setting and it will be very hard. It moves smart and knows how to handle navy and air.
I love the mouse wheel zoom and how smooth it is. Not many games seem to duplicate it.

warspite1

Yep - Civ IV is incredibly difficult - I very rarely win at the 3rd easiest level.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 1:00:26 AM

DSWargamer

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I think it humorous I an being branded an anti AI zealot and a bully :)

AIs suck, and I have seen too many games that prove it.

But as I mentioned, if it brings in the dollars, then sure why not, give them AI fans their idiot AI opponent :)

The best wargames I have ever played, each and every last one of them, were all played on paper maps. I am ok ranking computer wargames against each other, but, none of them are in the top 10 of wargames as a whole. Not as I see it that is.

As for senseless banter..... the moment you stop refusing something, they start to assume there is no problem with it.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 2:59:54 AM

Neilster

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It's not true to say there are no good AIs. The Command Ops series has one, the AI in TOAW 3 is very good and there are other examples.

How many times do we have to go through this? Expert MWiF players will play each other. The AI only has to be good enough to help teach beginners and to give intermediate players an enjoyable game. The reality is that an AI is very convenient because it's always up for a game when you want one and there's no shame if you make a mistake or get beaten. It encourages people to keep trying and to learn. And as I stated above, almost all computer gamers expect one.

You'll be able to play as much MWiF as you want against humans both before and after the AI is available. If you're not interested in an AI then cool...don't worry about it. PBEM and multiplayer appear to be coming first so the AI development isn't going to affect you.

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 23

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 1:45:15 PM

composer99

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The AI will also, I think, serve as a useful foil for testing strategies. It's damn hard to try something unusual when your opponent (you) knows exactly what you're up to.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 2:14:01 PM

DSWargamer

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"It's not true to say there are no good AIs. The Command Ops series has one, the AI in TOAW 3 is very good and there are other examples."

I own the Panther Games series as well as TOAW III as well as likely all the other wargames you own :)

I LIKE Panthers Games for the way they were designed. I like the forced command and control logic of not responding immediately to a simple mouse click.

But the thing is, a challenge from an AI is like a good joke, good the first time, but once you have heard it, often there is nothing special left. I have noticed, that the best part of Battle Academy is always the first time you play any of the battles in the campaigns, as you don't know the battle yet, won't know the reinforcement schedule and as a result, if you make bad choices, you pay for it. On the third play through though, the AI is usually at a disadvantage. Now vs a human, BA is definitely a challenge.

Too many regard a game as 'challenging' for the wrong reasons. Yes WitE can be challenging, but so is painting your kitchen with a toothbrush :) And thus, it is often not about the complexity, but rather the level of the work load. The AI won't be actually better, you are simply making yourself overloaded. I prefer to play Civilization on a massive map, with as many AI civs as possible, just to max out the work load. Because on Deity level, you vs a single AI on a small map, it's no real challenge. The AI will not 'know' the game in advance whereas the human will remember all the previous games, will thus be 'thinking' which is the best way to approach each map they find themselves on.

WiF will be considered a great boon to every wargamer that essentially couldn't care if computer wargames were ever given AIs at all.
Because every wargamer, regardless of AI fan or not, lives in a home that likely simply will never have a room dedicated solely to playing maps best set up in a warehouse.

Those that insist on playing vs an AI no doubt will desire the AI first. Likely will have the same laundry list of reasons I personally don't consider justifiable. Not enough people to play... not enough time...live in the wrong area... I make my life conform to my needs. It's not like there are no games out there that are global grand strategy and with an AI :) I can name several.

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RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 2:57:03 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

The AI will also, I think, serve as a useful foil for testing strategies. It's damn hard to try something unusual when your opponent (you) knows exactly what you're up to.

I have done this too, guiltlessly trying something unusual, cuz the AI don't complain if I screw up an otherwise good game. And sometimes an AI (at least my scripted AI on higher difficulty settings for my Advanced Third Reich mod) will try something unusual and catch me offguard. Contrary to some assertions, it is possible to program/script a computer opponent to be nefarious, it just takes quite a bit of effort.

(in reply to DSWargamer)

Post #: 26

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 3:06:28 PM

composer99

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quote:

Likely will have the same laundry list of reasons I personally don't consider justifiable. [...] I make my life conform to my needs.

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

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Post #: 27

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 3:19:02 PM

brian brian

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A huge strength of World in Flames vs other games is that there is no fixed "reinforcement schedule" anyone can learn. Once I started playing it and deciding which units my forces received, I knew I would never play a strategic level WWII game with a classic wargame reinforcement schedule ever again.

(in reply to composer99)

Post #: 28

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 3:30:17 PM

michaelbaldur

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you can really win or loss the game with production.

I have seen the German player building to many armoured units, but no offensives.

and I have seen USA building it�s entire fleet. literally every ship. and was to late with the second front.

and the Japanese player who forgot to build NAVs and pilots.

so you really need a build strategy. so you know how many of each units you will need (roughly)

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Post #: 29

RE: Solitare versus an AI - 10/29/2013 4:10:48 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Get off that high horse, please and thank you. You don't get to decide for other people what are or aren't justifiable reasons for their game-playing preferences or constraints.

+1

Why do some folks insist on telling other folks how they can or cannot play with their toys?? It must really bother them that someone somewhere does something differently than they do. OMG!! Whatever.