Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

August 11, 1942

"Nobody Suspects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

This turn took me over two hours. Like assembling a Swiss watch...


... 6) Bombing is shifted to Chiang Mai. There is no CAP. Multiple recon planes are hit or destroyed...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

To Alfred.

Wow. You would be a very scary opponent.


Not scary, much more likely to be viewed as an unpleasant and unreasonable opponent because I would not:

(a) allow any mulligans - one makes a mistake one lives with the consequences, any ten years olds should just move along to the Xbox stand
(b) be interested in assisting the opponent to enjoy playing his game - war is no entertainment, the game attempts to be as true as possible (within it's inherent limitations) to real world considerations, the events covered by the game were deadly serious
(c) be sympathetic to an opponent who has not invested the time to learn the game mechanics or hasn't thought through the consequences of his plans
(d) hesitate to identify an opponent who baled out without a very good reason; death would be acceptable, provided it came as a surprise
(e) disregard the victory conditions set by the devs

And before anyone accuses me of it, never once over the years of me commenting on AE and its predecessor have any of my suggestions been criticised as being "gamey"


Clearly my grasp of the land game is at very average levels.


If by average you mean at a level commonly exhibited by the majority of players, perhaps. This game, precisely because it attempts to replicate (within its limitations) real world considerations places a premium on logistics. Some AE players are drawn to the game primarily by the logistics aspect, but most don't. Most are drawn in by the naval combat aspect, with the aerial combat aspect a close second. This is why so many players get bored if they are not doing some "killing" when in fact, just as it is in the real world, not doing "killing" is usually the better course of action. For the participants at the pointy end, war is a long boring period punctuated by short periods of intense activity. Very few play AE because they are primarily drawn to it's land combat. Those who are generally concentrate on Eastern Front games which are designed with land warfare uppermost.

In your case you are drawn to the naval aspects. Flanking considerations have limited relevance for naval operations. ZOCs have very limited applicability to naval warfare. LOC is significantly different to SLOC, especially when implemented in computer games. It isn't surprising you prefer to see the natural blue of the ocean without the imposition of unnatural hexagons.


Some I did not know, such as the Reserve mode mechanisms and air attacks. I was also operating under the assumption that I had a ticking clock on Chinese replacement at all vis a vis Chungking. Replacements seem to me to have a very large random factor; I have always left the taps open everywhere to try to beat the odds and get some replacements in somewhere. I had not thought through the idea of not replacing in Reserve units. I was more of a "they're safer, put new men there" mindset. Your explanation makes sense and is 180 degrees from my past practices.


Have a read of this current main AE forum thread on logistics

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3428992

and the link provided back to the Logistics 101 thread. Whilst it is dealing with supply considerations in China it is actually relevant to replacements. The key is to recall the supply path cost which impacts not just on the movement of supplies and raw materials but the capacity to take replacements. The supply path cost together with the operations mode of the LCU are the main determinants on how often replacements are taken. A unit in rest mode will more often look to take replacements than a cohabiting unit which is in combat mode.


I also do not think enough about hexsides. Part of it is playing with hexes off at all. Part of it is too high a focus on roads and rails and an aversion to going cross-country in Burma. But you are completely right on closing off sides with soft, weak, throw-away units, of which I have many in the area. I have made his air targeting job a lot easier. If I were playing this again starting three months ago I'd do a lot differently.


This is common amongst many AE players who are not creative enough in using their assets, instead relying upon frontal approaches. When confronted by an opponent who shares the same mindset, the biggest mass usually wins. Quite some time ago there was a lengthy discussion in Cribtop's AAR of indirect approaches. He has implemented them very well and is well on his way to achieving an auto victory for Japan, by the latest on 1 January 1944 but with reasonable prospects of achieving it in the last quarter of 1943.

I have always said that one of the key tactical ploys is to make one's opponent choose. The more choices to be made the greater likelihood that the opponent will make a mistake.


I have been thinking of Chiang Mai as first a RR problem (Bangkok), and secondarily as a minor AF problem. But Level 4, potential 7, is not minor any longer. And your points about supply seepage to the battle zone is one I had not thought of.

The three units near Moulmein have a checkered past. The brown Indian one on the coast is the Tavoy refugees, pounded to mush and out of supply. I don't know if the Tavoy Japanese are right behind them or if they stayed put. I have no recon available. I had seen them wholly as a hexside blocking force, either on the road from Tavoy, or one hex to the east. They can't survive any sort of supplied attack. The two Chinese I aimed to the rally point two turns ago I think to hold the hex, as well as add low-supply but otherwise good AV to the mix. On the last turn one Japanese LCU appeared in the rally hex. Don't know what it is. Pegu LCU count is the same, but I get a read of one xAP in Moulmein harbor, so it might be new. Regardless, your point about leaving those two Chinese units south of the river to join the stack without the crossing is good. But they are very low on supply.


Oh I do recall the unfocussed wanderings of those Chinese units. It only took Moses 40 days to lead the Israelites across the desert because he was focussed. You instead looked at Chiang Mai first, then Raeheng, then entered an orienteering event, never being quite focussed on getting the units to complement their marching tempos, let alone settling on an objective and a meaningful mission for them.

Regarding their low supply levels, at least for the beat up Indian refugees, you can and should drop some supply from the air. That is one way to avoid the eventual CAP trap I mentioned in the previous post. You won't like this but being on a coastal hex you should interrupt your PA from their usual naval search missions to every so often drop some supply. Place the units on rest mode and being stationary they will start to recover. If they get shattered by a relief force they will have contributed by drawing away from Moulmein enemy units

I hear you on the Auusie 7th. After the two USMC divisions it's my favorite LCU right now. It has taken very, very little damage from the air. I think it has six disabled squads, pretty amazing. I hesitate to move it, but I think it's my best shot. As you say, Moulmein will not have good prep. In some cases virtually no prep. My hesitation is because Chinese units can do OK as they stand, but when they break and rout the losses are fearsome.

Overall I agree with you I have to re-do my replacement settings. They were driven by misunderstanding and misremembering (pick one ) the mechanics of how replacements arrive disabled. Head slapper.

Thanks a bunch, Alfred. Moulmein may not work, but this whole campaign has been a massive learning experience.

There is a distinct possibility that Muttley will not deliver Moulmein. Not least being your own supply considerations in the midst of the monsoon season. It will however be you setting the agenda and forcing your opponent to respond. All the while Japanese access to the oil/fuel of Palembang becomes more and more a moot point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

August 11, 1942

"Nobody Suspects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

This turn took me over two hours. Like assembling a Swiss watch...


... 6) Bombing is shifted to Chiang Mai. There is no CAP. Multiple recon planes are hit or destroyed...

Actually I think the title of the post more appropriately reflected this action than that of mining the Irrawaddy. The mining is just bringing a new weapon into the same fight and one which should have been considered by your opponent. Still a frontal assault albeit one of much greater subtlety than ordering a deliberate attack.

On the other hand, hitting the Chiang Mai airfields appears to be launching a new offensive not related to the main show at Rangoon/Pegu but in actual fact is an indirect attack by hitting the support pillars of the Rangoon/Pegu Japanese defence. It would have caught your opponent completely by surprise. Any data on just how many recon planes were lost; planes which I daresay were being used to improve the effectiveness of the enemy 2E Ground Attacks.

This is the combat report for that attack. The animation showed six Recon-type planes damaged, one torpedo type damaged, and one torpedo-type destroyed. The Lily reported shows the FOW implications. It has long been my belief that any Japanese plane sighted which is not 100% IDed is called a torpedo-type by the FOW module.


Afternoon Air attack on Chiang Mai , at 58,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 33 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3
Wellington Ic x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 5


Your opponent should respond quickly by reallocating some defence to Chiang Mai. That will help to reduce the pressure on you elsewhere. Your task now is to not get suckered into a CAP trap over Chiang Mai but hit other auxiliary airfields which support the Japanese defence. If Raeheng (or any other airbase) has reached level 4 and you can reach it, target it. Keep him on the hop. Once the enemy starts dispersing their fighters you can seriously start contemplating setting up some CAP traps.

Good idea to mix it up. My raids are so small that a real CAP trap isn't needed to whack them. 2-3 planes is a medium effort now. I have done a few CAP traps over the months, but at Singers and PBang. Burma doesn't have the numbers. All my CAP and LRCAP is trying to do there now is disrupt bombing. I can't really hurt his inventories much. AA does that if anything does.

For the history buffs, IIRC the Spanish Inquisition had 18 chapters who whilst following central policy, exercised their own initiative. Make your opponent feel as if he is confronting 18 Inquisitions.

And encountering 18 models of Comfy Chair?

Alfred

Edit: PS. Only 2 hours. I see you are still on training wheels.

By some measures. But I DO have a life (and a wife.) Friday I started dealing with AE at 7 AM. Between turns in two PBEM games, AARs, research, forum reading and posting, screen shots, and more forum postings I was still on AE at 4 PM. At some point it becomes a job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

To Alfred.

Wow. You would be a very scary opponent.


Not scary, much more likely to be viewed as an unpleasant and unreasonable opponent because I would not:

(a) allow any mulligans - one makes a mistake one lives with the consequences, any ten years olds should just move along to the Xbox stand
(b) be interested in assisting the opponent to enjoy playing his game - war is no entertainment, the game attempts to be as true as possible (within it's inherent limitations) to real world considerations, the events covered by the game were deadly serious
(c) be sympathetic to an opponent who has not invested the time to learn the game mechanics or hasn't thought through the consequences of his plans
(d) hesitate to identify an opponent who baled out without a very good reason; death would be acceptable, provided it came as a surprise
(e) disregard the victory conditions set by the devs

And before anyone accuses me of it, never once over the years of me commenting on AE and its predecessor have any of my suggestions been criticised as being "gamey"


Clearly my grasp of the land game is at very average levels.


If by average you mean at a level commonly exhibited by the majority of players, perhaps. This game, precisely because it attempts to replicate (within its limitations) real world considerations places a premium on logistics. Some AE players are drawn to the game primarily by the logistics aspect, but most don't. Most are drawn in by the naval combat aspect, with the aerial combat aspect a close second. This is why so many players get bored if they are not doing some "killing" when in fact, just as it is in the real world, not doing "killing" is usually the better course of action. For the participants at the pointy end, war is a long boring period punctuated by short periods of intense activity. Very few play AE because they are primarily drawn to it's land combat. Those who are generally concentrate on Eastern Front games which are designed with land warfare uppermost.

In your case you are drawn to the naval aspects. Flanking considerations have limited relevance for naval operations. ZOCs have very limited applicability to naval warfare. LOC is significantly different to SLOC, especially when implemented in computer games. It isn't surprising you prefer to see the natural blue of the ocean without the imposition of unnatural hexagons.


Some I did not know, such as the Reserve mode mechanisms and air attacks. I was also operating under the assumption that I had a ticking clock on Chinese replacement at all vis a vis Chungking. Replacements seem to me to have a very large random factor; I have always left the taps open everywhere to try to beat the odds and get some replacements in somewhere. I had not thought through the idea of not replacing in Reserve units. I was more of a "they're safer, put new men there" mindset. Your explanation makes sense and is 180 degrees from my past practices.


Have a read of this current main AE forum thread on logistics

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3428992

and the link provided back to the Logistics 101 thread. Whilst it is dealing with supply considerations in China it is actually relevant to replacements. The key is to recall the supply path cost which impacts not just on the movement of supplies and raw materials but the capacity to take replacements. The supply path cost together with the operations mode of the LCU are the main determinants on how often replacements are taken. A unit in rest mode will more often look to take replacements than a cohabiting unit which is in combat mode.


I also do not think enough about hexsides. Part of it is playing with hexes off at all. Part of it is too high a focus on roads and rails and an aversion to going cross-country in Burma. But you are completely right on closing off sides with soft, weak, throw-away units, of which I have many in the area. I have made his air targeting job a lot easier. If I were playing this again starting three months ago I'd do a lot differently.


This is common amongst many AE players who are not creative enough in using their assets, instead relying upon frontal approaches. When confronted by an opponent who shares the same mindset, the biggest mass usually wins. Quite some time ago there was a lengthy discussion in Cribtop's AAR of indirect approaches. He has implemented them very well and is well on his way to achieving an auto victory for Japan, by the latest on 1 January 1944 but with reasonable prospects of achieving it in the last quarter of 1943.

I have always said that one of the key tactical ploys is to make one's opponent choose. The more choices to be made the greater likelihood that the opponent will make a mistake.


I have been thinking of Chiang Mai as first a RR problem (Bangkok), and secondarily as a minor AF problem. But Level 4, potential 7, is not minor any longer. And your points about supply seepage to the battle zone is one I had not thought of.

The three units near Moulmein have a checkered past. The brown Indian one on the coast is the Tavoy refugees, pounded to mush and out of supply. I don't know if the Tavoy Japanese are right behind them or if they stayed put. I have no recon available. I had seen them wholly as a hexside blocking force, either on the road from Tavoy, or one hex to the east. They can't survive any sort of supplied attack. The two Chinese I aimed to the rally point two turns ago I think to hold the hex, as well as add low-supply but otherwise good AV to the mix. On the last turn one Japanese LCU appeared in the rally hex. Don't know what it is. Pegu LCU count is the same, but I get a read of one xAP in Moulmein harbor, so it might be new. Regardless, your point about leaving those two Chinese units south of the river to join the stack without the crossing is good. But they are very low on supply.


Oh I do recall the unfocussed wanderings of those Chinese units. It only took Moses 40 days to lead the Israelites across the desert because he was focussed. You instead looked at Chiang Mai first, then Raeheng, then entered an orienteering event, never being quite focussed on getting the units to complement their marching tempos, let alone settling on an objective and a meaningful mission for them.

Regarding their low supply levels, at least for the beat up Indian refugees, you can and should drop some supply from the air. That is one way to avoid the eventual CAP trap I mentioned in the previous post. You won't like this but being on a coastal hex you should interrupt your PA from their usual naval search missions to every so often drop some supply. Place the units on rest mode and being stationary they will start to recover. If they get shattered by a relief force they will have contributed by drawing away from Moulmein enemy units

I hear you on the Auusie 7th. After the two USMC divisions it's my favorite LCU right now. It has taken very, very little damage from the air. I think it has six disabled squads, pretty amazing. I hesitate to move it, but I think it's my best shot. As you say, Moulmein will not have good prep. In some cases virtually no prep. My hesitation is because Chinese units can do OK as they stand, but when they break and rout the losses are fearsome.

Overall I agree with you I have to re-do my replacement settings. They were driven by misunderstanding and misremembering (pick one ) the mechanics of how replacements arrive disabled. Head slapper.

Thanks a bunch, Alfred. Moulmein may not work, but this whole campaign has been a massive learning experience.

There is a distinct possibility that Muttley will not deliver Moulmein. Not least being your own supply considerations in the midst of the monsoon season. It will however be you setting the agenda and forcing your opponent to respond. All the while Japanese access to the oil/fuel of Palembang becomes more and more a moot point.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

2) Massive troop bombing of the MUTTLEYs. About 800 lost. The code routed the stack north up the road before SW into the rally hex. As far as I can tell the hexside directly to the rally hex is open; two late-ordered LCUs in the Pegu hex are in fact heading to cross it. And extra week of bombing at 800 per day? Wonderful. Love this game sometimes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lomri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

2) Massive troop bombing of the MUTTLEYs. About 800 lost. The code routed the stack north up the road before SW into the rally hex. As far as I can tell the hexside directly to the rally hex is open; two late-ordered LCUs in the Pegu hex are in fact heading to cross it. And extra week of bombing at 800 per day? Wonderful. Love this game sometimes.

Maybe I'm confused about what MUTTLEY is - but if you mean the stack marched NE out of Pegu then SE to get directly west of Pegu that'll be because you don't control the hex side to the east. If I'm talking about something else my apologies!

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

When you have a hex selected, the white of the selection usually drowns out the colors of the hex sides. I always select (click on) a different hex than any I want to look at when turning on ownership (w) or hex side config (F6).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Good thing the Corvallis fort level went up. Wouldn't want him taking Oregon State University.

Cheers,
CC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Good thing the Corvallis fort level went up. Wouldn't want him taking Oregon State University.

Cheers,
CC