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Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 2:23:49 AM   
MrLongleg

 

Posts: 707
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline 		I saw that many times and in the meantime I think it must be a bug. The Vulcan platoon is one to two hexes away from Russian helis, has ammunition and morale and a clear line of sight and still never shoots. Only my Bradleys are doing harm to the helicopters.

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RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 8:00:03 AM   
76mm


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Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		Apaches don't seem to do much against Hinds either, while Hinds blow my Apaches out of the sky very quickly.

(in reply to MrLongleg)
Post #: 2
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 8:23:29 AM   
guderian68

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 9/30/2013
Status: offline 		me too had problem with antiair units. Usually soviet elicopter are shoot down by infantry and tank (?) platoons.
I don't remenber a single vulcan or similar units hit.

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Post #: 3
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 11:44:24 AM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		We are working on a couple fixes for AD units we found in testing during the week. By any chance were those Vulcans in smoke? I am also adding a bug tracking issue this morning to address the "lack" of aggression against air targets.

Thanks for the inputs.

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RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:16:34 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Were your Apache's in Hold? When I put Apache's in hold they get more aggressive.

The AI will move it's forces by assault move quite a bit. That means they end with a hold order. When a unit is in hold it will fire at anything that comes in range.

That's okay, and it makes the Apache's more aggressive but they should be aggressively firing at enemy units in screen mode too. Not just continually backing away.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
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Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:23:03 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Were your Apache's in Hold? When I put Apache's in hold they get more aggressive.


No, in fact, I've been a little fuzzy on how the move orders and postures afffect helicopters. Even on screen my Apaches would fire on Hinds, they just wouldn't kill many, while the Hinds blow the Apaches out of the sky. I wouldn't have minded if my Apaches had evaded away from the Hinds--I didn't really want them to stay in place--but I was hoping that at least they would take some Hinds with them.

These comments are based on one playing of 3rd Herd, but the results in that game were consistent and clear...

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 6
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:35:45 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		I have already pointed that fact and got an answer saying the more or less that Vulcans are totally ineffective, Vulcans sucks, etc.
If they are useless, why bothering making them part of the OOB? They are like the kitchen company or so...

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Post #: 7
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:36:44 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		You give a helicopter an assault order, just like you do a ground unit, and it ends it's move in hold.

At the moment I still don't think Apache's are aggressive enough.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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Post #: 8
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:42:58 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
At the moment I still don't think Apache's are aggressive enough.

Even on Screen they do pretty spectacularly well vs ground targets (one of mine had almost 100 kills), just not so well against other helos.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 9
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:44:33 PM   
cbelva


Posts: 1843
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline 		One thing I would advise people and this is coming from experience. Don't base your opinions regarding what is working and what is not working on only one play thru. I have made that mistake in the past on more than one occasions. Their are difference factors (such as morale) that can affect performance and they can change during different play. The AI does not always responds the same way each game. Play several times to get a feel overall before jumping to conclusions. If it is a problem, you should see it repeat several times. I have seen Vulcans take out Hinds (as recently as yesterday). But I think there may be some tweaking that needs done because they do seem somewhat timid. However, it is my understanding that they are a line of sight weapon. Their weapon is not radar guided so the crew have to see the target before they can engage. They have a radar, but was for determining distance. (note--I was not a duck hunter so I will bow to someone with more knowledge on this than me) However, I have seen quite a few comments on the forum about some problem or some weapon not doing what they thought it should be doing based sorely on one playing of a scenario. I have played scenarios where the Soviets blew thru the Americans and their M1A1 and thought, "oh no, M1A1s are broken". Then play it again and the M1A1 blows the T-80s off the map. It can depend on tactics, changing weather conditions, morale, who fired first, command and control, use of terrain, etc.

< Message edited by cbelva -- 11/4/2013 12:47:41 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:53:42 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		You are right about that. To solve the problem I started the Dawn scenario in H to H mode, placed two Vulcans in approximately the same place as in the previous game and then, as WP, I gave orders to the Hinds to close in. After several turns (5 hours) the choppers just didn't move and as I was bored of waiting just quit, probably I did (or didn't) something the Hinds needed for moving, other than having wayponts.

< Message edited by Panta -- 11/4/2013 12:54:27 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 12:59:41 PM   
cbelva


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Status: offline 		Panta, can you attached a saved game file from after you gave the orders to move. I would like to look at that.

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Post #: 12
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 1:02:37 PM   
guderian68

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 9/30/2013
Status: offline 		I notice the unefectiness of vulcan against helicopter several time.
I can also say that the vulcan are very effective against fixed wing aircraft.

I want also to point out that I noticed that behaviour with air defence unit of german army too. So in my feeling is not a Vulcan problem.


(in reply to MrLongleg)
Post #: 13
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 1:46:38 PM   
Panta_slith


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Montevideo, Uruguay
Status: offline 		No, sorry, I searched but didn't find it. On the other hand, I tried to reproduce the problem and now the choppers do move, the Vulcans fire at them but with little success even at close range and are decimated. I have another .sav where one of the choppers unit at 1819, a Coy HQ, just doesn't move, but the others do and fight normally.
(.sav extension changed to .txt)

Attachment (1)

(in reply to cbelva)
Post #: 14
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 1:56:05 PM   
cbelva


Posts: 1843
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Were your Apache's in Hold? When I put Apache's in hold they get more aggressive.


No, in fact, I've been a little fuzzy on how the move orders and postures afffect helicopters. Even on screen my Apaches would fire on Hinds, they just wouldn't kill many, while the Hinds blow the Apaches out of the sky. I wouldn't have minded if my Apaches had evaded away from the Hinds--I didn't really want them to stay in place--but I was hoping that at least they would take some Hinds with them.

These comments are based on one playing of 3rd Herd, but the results in that game were consistent and clear...

I just ran a test scenario where I squared off 6 Apaches against 6 Hinds (3 units with 2 helos each side). When the dust cleared it was 5 Hinds laying on the ground burning and all 6 Apaches still flying. This is just one test. I have had instances in other scenario where the Hinds came out on top. I have had times where they broke even. This being said, we will continue to keep our eyes on helos and AD units.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 15
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 3:43:58 PM   
grant1pa

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 10/26/2013
Status: offline 		I just finished "Head On" on Saturday and both my vulcan and apache units performed as I would have expected them to. The vulcans got kills once they moved out of a minefield and smoke they got hit in, and my apaches did quite well against armour and aerial targets while screening south of Bischofsheim. When I changed to assault once I brough armor support up, they became more aggressive and did better.

I noted in one scenario I played last week that my air defense was next to useless. The hinds ripped me, resupplied, then came back to do it again. The difference I remember in the two games was weather (lower visibility in Head On) and morale, less in the small fulda gap scenario (sorry, can't remember the name) and better in Head On.

The other thing I have to observe is tactical use of the units. The better my head wraps around the tactical system in the game and the better I deploy and use the terrain, arty, air, and unit dynamics, the better they peform and I perform. Nice little military model this game is!

I'm not displeased with the performance of the air defense, knowing the problems NATO faced in this era. But I think it may be good to look at it down the road. In the meantime, I'm enjoying what the game provides right now.

Tom

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 16
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 4:00:53 PM   
TheWombat_matrixforum

 

Posts: 469
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Status: offline 		I saw this thread title and said, "What? Spock never saw a helicopter, did he?"

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Post #: 17
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 7:29:55 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		The Hinds use cloaking devices that's why the do so well!

Good Hunting.

MR

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The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to TheWombat_matrixforum)
Post #: 18
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 7:58:51 PM   
MrLongleg

 

Posts: 707
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From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

We are working on a couple fixes for AD units we found in testing during the week. By any chance were those Vulcans in smoke? I



No smoke, they just stared at the helicopters in plain sight 500 to 1000 m away without doing anything. Due to their radar they will get killed by artillery after a while...

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MrLongleg

Life is too short to drink bad wine ;-)

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Post #: 19
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/4/2013 8:51:17 PM   
cbelva


Posts: 1843
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

I saw this thread title and said, "What? Spock never saw a helicopter, did he?"

Yes, Spock saw a helicopter once. Remember "The Voyage Home"? Sulu used one to delivery the thick Plexiglas for the whale container

(in reply to TheWombat_matrixforum)
Post #: 20
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 4:58:59 AM   
fvianello


Posts: 534
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I can confirm that, even in 2.02, Vulcan almost always just stare at enemy helicopters, doing nothing.
In 2nd scenario of US campaign, I'm trying everything (4 hex away, 2 hex away, hold, on call, screen) but both vulcan and chaparral remain passive against the hinds.

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Post #: 21
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 11:18:07 AM   
TheWombat_matrixforum

 

Posts: 469
Joined: 8/2/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cbelva


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

I saw this thread title and said, "What? Spock never saw a helicopter, did he?"

Yes, Spock saw a helicopter once. Remember "The Voyage Home"? Sulu used one to delivery the thick Plexiglas for the whale container


I award the Geek Crown to thee, sire. :)

(in reply to cbelva)
Post #: 22
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 11:55:39 AM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Hi Hanbarca

That is weird, I have had vulcans and chaparrals fire and kill some hinds in my games, or if they didn't manage to kill them they have at least fired and chased the Hinds away...

Does weather have a large effect on AD units?

< Message edited by highlandcharge -- 11/18/2013 12:57:10 PM >

(in reply to fvianello)
Post #: 23
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 12:32:09 PM   
cbelva


Posts: 1843
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline 		I ran a small test yesterday with Vulcan and Chaparrals looking at another issue. I did observe the Vulcans fire at helos, but not hit anything and was quickly destroyed. The Chaparrals are line of sight weapons and they did kills 2 or 3 helos. But by firing they gave their position away and was destroyed by the surviving helos.

< Message edited by cbelva -- 11/18/2013 1:32:40 PM >

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 24
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 1:43:18 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		I'm moving this up to Tech Support so we can track this as a possible issue.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to cbelva)
Post #: 25
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 3:57:48 PM   
fvianello


Posts: 534
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I'll add some additional info:
In the 2nd campaign scenario, AD units placed 4 hexes away (maximum scenario LOS) from enemy helicopters seems to stay idle UNLESS there's some other unit closer (1 or 2 hexes) to the enemy helos.

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Post #: 26
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 4:19:37 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Do you mean there if there is a friendly unit within 1 or 2 hexes?

I usually cover my units by moving the AD unit with them (in the same hex or adjacent), maybe that's why I am seeing my vulcans actually shooting at and even shooting down some hinds...

(in reply to fvianello)
Post #: 27
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 4:29:12 PM   
fvianello


Posts: 534
Joined: 8/6/2002
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Yes, a friendly unit within 1 or 2 hexes

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Post #: 28
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 11/18/2013 5:01:25 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
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From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		What is the time of day and also the weather? Can you also get a screen shot of the situation you are seeing. That would help us replicate the issue. And to verify you are on 2.02a?

Thanks.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

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Post #: 29
RE: Vulcans never attack helicopters - 1/29/2014 6:10:53 PM   
Tinkershuffle

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 4/27/2013
Status: offline 		Ok, I'm not sure if the Vulcan bug is going to be fixed in 2.03 but I thought I still report this. I was playing a pbem game of Dawn's First Light but I had to give up because my Vulcans weren't firing at all. There's no point continuing a scenario against a helo regiment if your AD units are only enjoying the sights. I can send you a couple of these pbem files to demonstrate this if you'll give an email address where I can send them?

ps. Otherwise I'm enjoying the game immensely.

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