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Supply question - 1/21/2003 3:23:23 AM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		Question:

I have a RCT in Tulagi that is self sufficient in regards to support. By this I mean it's supply requirements are = or less than it's support value (depends on the number of support/combat squads active at the time).

I also have 3-4 times the unit's required supply stockpiled at the base. Why then does the unit show a big fat red zero on its screen under "supply"?


(edit: sorry it is a RCT not a BCT)

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Post #: 1
- 1/21/2003 5:14:57 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Whats it's fatigue, how many parts disabled, how many support parts disabled? How many parts destroyed? Did it just arrive? (I have noticed that units sometimes reflect LAST turn's status)...

A unit can obviously go from fully supported to hurting due to malaria rotting it's poor supply staff. I would assume that disabled parts still consume supply unless utterly destroyed, just cause you are in bed doesn't mean you don't keep the doctors busy and eat now and then ...

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Post #: 2
- 1/21/2003 9:58:38 AM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Whats it's fatigue, how many parts disabled, how many support parts disabled? How many parts destroyed? Did it just arrive? (I have noticed that units sometimes reflect LAST turn's status)...

A unit can obviously go from fully supported to hurting due to malaria rotting it's poor supply staff. I would assume that disabled parts still consume supply unless utterly destroyed, just cause you are in bed doesn't mean you don't keep the doctors busy and eat now and then ... [/B][/QUOTE]

Why would it make a difference how many parts are disabled?

It has a support number that exceeds its supply needs. That should be it, right? The support number changes as the number of disabled men changes, so I would assume that is enough.

It has a pretty high fatigue (in the 70's I think)...but again, why does that matter?

If the support number is not a true reflection of the amount of support a unit creates, then what the hell good is it? :(

(not ranting at you Mr. Frag, just ranting in general ;) )

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Post #: 3
- 1/21/2003 12:18:59 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Support and Supply are 2 different things.


One can be in good condition and the other in poor condition.

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Post #: 4
- 1/21/2003 12:35:50 PM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98
[B]Support and Supply are 2 different things.


One can be in good condition and the other in poor condition. [/B][/QUOTE]

Ah...yes... :confused:

(my first post)

[QUOTE]I have a RCT in Tulagi that is self sufficient in regards to support...I also have 3-4 times the unit's required supply stockpiled at the base. Why then does the unit show a big fat red zero on its screen under "supply"?[/QUOTE]

:)

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Post #: 5
- 1/21/2003 8:35:04 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumbling Grogn
[B]Why would it make a difference how many parts are disabled?

The support number changes as the number of disabled men changes, so I would assume that is enough.

It has a pretty high fatigue (in the 70's I think)...but again, why does that matter?

If the support number is not a true reflection of the amount of support a unit creates, then what the hell good is it? :(

(not ranting at you Mr. Frag, just ranting in general ;) ) [/B][/QUOTE]

Support has nothing to do with Supply. Supply is the amount of goods (ammo, food, etc) consumed during the turns action (ie: defend with no attack = low use, full out shock assault = extreme use). Supplies are individually draw by the unit.

Support is whether the rear line troops are doing their jobs, cooks, docs, command & control, etc. Support is given to the base and summed up then applied against all units there to cover them off.


With multiple units in a location, the support may be nowhere near enough, even though a individual unit has more support then it needs. The support comes from the base, not the unit as I understand it ... could be wrong, but thats the way I read it ...

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Post #: 6
Okay, let me try this again... - 1/21/2003 10:10:40 PM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Support has nothing to do with Supply. Supply is the amount of goods (ammo, food, etc) consumed during the turns action (ie: defend with no attack = low use, full out shock assault = extreme use). Supplies are individually draw by the unit.

Support is whether the rear line troops are doing their jobs, cooks, docs, command & control, etc. Support is given to the base and summed up then applied against all units there to cover them off.


With multiple units in a location, the support may be nowhere near enough, even though a individual unit has more support then it needs. The support comes from the base, not the unit as I understand it ... could be wrong, but thats the way I read it ... [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL! :)

I guess I am not being clear (although I am not sure what I have left out... :confused: ).

Supply is supply and support is support... Supply is beans and bullets in the warehouse and support is the guys that cook the beans and repair the guns... Yes I know that. :D

Tulagi has ONE unit in it (a RCT).

This RCT unit generates enough support for itself (IIRCC it currently generates 101 and requires 99).

Tulagi has plenty of supplies stockpiled for the BCT to use (again IIRCC it has about 225-275 units of supply stockpiled in the base--yeah not much but it is only one unit).

My problem is when I open the unit's detail screen it's little number that indicates the amount of supplies USED by the unit, it shows a big, fat, red zero...and the units fatigue keeps going up, and up, and up...

Perhaps I can post a screen shot tonight... :rolleyes:

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Post #: 7
- 1/21/2003 10:51:17 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Can you post the unit details and the base details?

Gotta be something here ... notice the results sum up to match exactly.

I load scenario 17 as Japan, the 84th Naval Garrison sits in Buka, a location with no supplies...

Base:

Supplies: [COLOR=red]0[/COLOR]
Supplies Required: 54

Support: [COLOR=red]24[/COLOR]
Support Required: 30

Unit:

Supplies: [COLOR=red]0[/COLOR]
Supplies Required: 54

Support: [COLOR=red]24[/COLOR]
Support Required: 30

You are saying the Unit Supplies is [COLOR=red]0[/COLOR]

A RCT at rest in Noumea consumes 259 supplies. Never seen a BCT unit, wondering if you are bringing in < 259 supply a turn, it is getting completely used by the unit during the two supply phases, and you end up getting the report each day that the unit has 0 supplies yet at the same time, you are moving another 250 supplies into the hex. You see the 250 supplies that just arrived, but the supply phase happens before the air transport mission flies out to drop off the supplies I think.

Could be a timing thing where you are using the supplies overnight that you bring in only to have none left for the day supply cycle followed by you bringing in enough for the overnight cycle ... and round and round we go with a perpetual Supplies: [COLOR=red]0[/COLOR]

Only thing I can think of that makes sense :confused:

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Post #: 8
Unit supply base supply - 1/22/2003 7:42:35 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, What is the base supply condition? Is the base out of the red?
I don't think ground units will stockpile supply if the base is in the red (Even though there is enough supply per day the unit will not fill it's space unless the base has surplus supply)
Still the unit should not suffer as long as it is getting it's daily supply.

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Post #: 9
Screenshots... - 1/22/2003 12:43:48 PM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		Here are the screen shots of the base and the unit.

Beats the heck out of me...


[IMG]http://home.swbell.net/grog1/misc/tulagibase.jpg[/IMG]



Please note that one of the reasons the fatigue is so **** high is because the thing has been out of supply like this for several days (a week?).

oh, and he is NOT getting supply every day (I wish!) more like once or twice a week he gets some but from what I can tell he never uses ANY so whats the point? :confused:

Any help welcome. :)

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Post #: 10
- 1/22/2003 9:08:03 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		ok, you got me :confused:

The numbers don't add up, yet they must! Post that one in the bugs section with the save...

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Post #: 11
- 1/22/2003 11:42:06 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		The only time I look at individual supply is when units are marching or invading. But they do seem to restock once a week when marching. Don't know about on base though. Just assumed that if base was in supply that the unit was in supply. Also in your example the base does not have a months supply so that might affect how the supply is handed out to the units.

This question has always puzzled me when looking at the supply for invading units. Does the supply on a ship go with those troops on the same ship? Since you don't have a base to look at when invading you have to do the math in your head (oh horrors!) to figure out if the total supply is enough for al the troops.

Guess we need an official explaination.:)

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Post #: 12
- 1/23/2003 12:54:03 AM   
HawaiiFive-O

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 12/21/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		The only thing I can think of is the manual mentions that units will instinctively begin to curtail operations in order to stretch out the available supplies, if it feels there are not enough supplies on hand.

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Post #: 13
- 1/23/2003 2:14:05 AM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]The only thing I can think of is the manual mentions that units will instinctively begin to curtail operations in order to stretch out the available supplies, if it feels there are not enough supplies on hand.[/QUOTE]

Not enough supplies should show up as a pink number, not a red number. Red is dire, pink is warning, from what I've seen in the game, and even if there was not enough, it would still show that it was using the number, not a big red 0 from everything I have seen.

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Post #: 14
- 1/23/2003 2:42:10 AM   
HawaiiFive-O

 

Posts: 295
Joined: 12/21/2002
From: USA
Status: offline 		But think about this. Typically a unit "fills up" with more than the needed supplies. More than double has been my experience.

This might be a bug wherein the unit wants to "fill up", but the supplies on hand are not enough.

I say, get more supplies there and see what happens.

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Post #: 15
- 1/23/2003 2:53:10 AM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by HawaiiFive-O
[B]But think about this. Typically a unit "fills up" with more than the needed supplies. More than double has been my experience.

This might be a bug wherein the unit wants to "fill up", but the supplies on hand are not enough.

I say, get more supplies there and see what happens. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well... If this is the problem then it is a bug.

I have well over twice the needed supplies for the unit in the base and have had such for close to a week.

If the unit needs TWICE it's supply number to be in supply... :confused: It is either a bug, or it needs to be explained a heck of a lot better in the manual. :(

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Post #: 16
- 1/23/2003 6:35:48 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Hi GG,

I've seen this happen for a couple of days with troops I've just landed on a base. I dump lots of supply next to them, and one unit (e.g., an engineer) will swim in supply, whereas the next (often an infantry unit, like your RCT) will have zero. After a few days -- or even after an attack -- suddenly the INF unit "finds" the supply and all is well. I've written it off as a consequence of the chaos of unloading at a beach under fire. But I confess I've never had it last as long as a week. Especially not when you have pretty good amounts of support in the hex. So I too would be curious to hear what Matrix thinks about this.

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Post #: 17
Try this - 1/23/2003 9:02:08 AM   
dherche

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Woodsboro, MD
Status: offline 		GG:

Did some testing on this. Get the base supplies up to 4 times the amount needed by the unit. This worked for me. The unit did not start using the supplies until there was 4 times needed. e.g. 250 points supplies required = 1000 points supplies on hand. The unit then starting using the supplies.

Also, I stockpiled the base but the unit DID NOT add more supplies to its' total. It continued to use supply points (9 per day) until it reached 2 times required needed (500 points). Then it began to dip into the base supplies to stay around the "Times 2" mark.

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Post #: 18
Re: Try this - 1/23/2003 11:59:43 AM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dherche
[B]GG:

Did some testing on this. Get the base supplies up to 4 times the amount needed by the unit. This worked for me. The unit did not start using the supplies until there was 4 times needed. e.g. 250 points supplies required = 1000 points supplies on hand. The unit then starting using the supplies.

Also, I stockpiled the base but the unit DID NOT add more supplies to its' total. It continued to use supply points (9 per day) until it reached 2 times required needed (500 points). Then it began to dip into the base supplies to stay around the "Times 2" mark. [/B][/QUOTE]

Huh, I wil do my best but considering the location of the unit this will be a bit hard. Why four times? Is this a feature that has not been documented? Or a bug? Or what? :confused:

Would have been nice to know this before I dropped the poor bastards there too. ;)

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Post #: 19
Looks normal to me - 1/23/2003 12:06:57 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, From the sceen shot the supply the base was using was exactly what the unit required. However there was not enough supply at the base for the unit to both eat and stockpile (it would eat the base supply)
So, The unit is in supply. (It is not suffering from lack of supply)
However it is not stockpiling supply. It appears in 2-3 days it will begin to suffer from lack of supply (even if it stockpiled the supply , using all the base supply the unit would still eat it and be out)
You need to get several K supply to this base ASAP.

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Post #: 20
Re: Looks normal to me - 1/23/2003 12:14:29 PM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi, From the sceen shot the supply the base was using was exactly what the unit required. However there was not enough supply at the base for the unit to both eat and stockpile (it would eat the base supply)
So, The unit is in supply. (It is not suffering from lack of supply)
However it is not stockpiling supply. It appears in 2-3 days it will begin to suffer from lack of supply (even if it stockpiled the supply , using all the base supply the unit would still eat it and be out)
You need to get several K supply to this base ASAP. [/B][/QUOTE]

HUH?!? You lost me. :confused:

The "base" has 668 supply in hand.

The "base" needs 243 supply each turn...this is because the only unit there uses 243 supply each turn (see unit screen).

This unit also needs 107 support and it meets this with its own support internally by providing 108 support.

AFAIK an empty base requires zero supply (right?). So it all should boil down to the unit, its supply and support requirements and how much supply is on hand

IF the base/unit/whatever needs more supply to be effective then exactly what the hell do these numbers mean?

I am sorry but this is way, way, way to obtuse. I have two degrees and I have been playing war games since the early 70's.

It don't need to be this hard :rolleyes:

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Post #: 21
Looks like you understand - 1/23/2003 12:25:28 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Seems to me you have it. The base has x supply the unit eats x supply. The red on the unit disply means the unit has no stockpile supply. The base supply is white meaning there is enough supply. Wheres the beef? In around 3 days your going to have a problem (and base supply will turn red when it can not met the unit's supply requirment) The unit eats 243 supply per day. If it stockpile supply today it would be white for 2 days and then turn back to red (below 243 stockpiled) There is no reason for the unit to empty the base supply (since you might have more then one unit there consuming supply. The 164th RCT does not know it is the only unit using supply.

Supplies 0 (the unit has no supplies of it's own. The base might have 100k this number would not change untill the unit added supply to it's stockpile (not the base)

Supplies required 243 The amount the unit eats per day. First it looks to base if enough supply there it consumes base supply. If no outside source it checks it's own supply (in this case zero)

When both the base and the units stockpile is less then required the unit begins to suffer.

Support is a whole new animal. Its Corpsmen and mail clerks. Some units have enough internal support (HQ) other units need "Support" units to make up what they don't have.

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Post #: 22
And another thing - 1/23/2003 6:38:52 PM   
dherche

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Woodsboro, MD
Status: offline 		I continued testing by taking away all (well most) of the bases supplies. The base itself had about 150 supply pts. But the unit still had well over 400 pts. (250 needed).

The base stats were:

Supplies: [COLOR=red]150[/COLOR]
Supplies Required: 250

The units stats were:

Supplies: 450
Supplies Required: 250

Of course, the unit continued to use 9 supply pts. per day. The base supplies went down by the same amount. i.e. next day totals were 141 for base and 441 for unit.

I resupplied the base with 1500 supp. pts. The unit's supplies jumped back to over 500 (twice the amount needed).

Conclusion:
The numbers (supply points) on the base screen are somewhat misleading.

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Post #: 23
Re: Re: Try this - 1/23/2003 6:45:18 PM   
dherche

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Woodsboro, MD
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumbling Grogn
[B]Huh, I wil do my best but considering the location of the unit this will be a bit hard. Why four times? Is this a feature that has not been documented? Or a bug? Or what? :confused:

Would have been nice to know this before I dropped the poor bastards there too. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

I haven't seen it documented anywhere. Something I found on my own. But then again, there are a lot of things (hints/how-to's) in this forum that have not been documented anywhere.

BTW, this is a great forum. Keep up the good work guys.

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Post #: 24
- 1/23/2003 8:27:47 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I haven't seen it documented anywhere. Something I found on my own.[/QUOTE]

No shocker there, the only real documentation for this game is the patch list of what was changed :D

A updated FAQ should be a high priority, but we are still too much in the dark to produce it ... Being an old wargamer, it's really strange not having the hundreds of pages worth of detailed tables etc ...

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Post #: 25
- 1/23/2003 9:53:23 PM   
marc420

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 9/23/2002
From: Terrapin Station
Status: offline 		Just curious (and too lazy to test it on my own).

Was anyone tracking the overall supply level at the base over the turns? I'm curious if Supply was being used, even if it wasn't showing up on the unit screen.

I guess in someways this makes sense. A commander who knows he only has a limited amount of supplies might try to save some back for use in battle in case he's attacked. Thus when he see's that he's only got two days worth at normal usage rates, he tries to cut his unit's supply usage to try to keep a reserve.

Since "Supplies" covers not only ammo, but also food, clothing etc., it can seem a bit odd. When thinking of "supplies" as food, it seems odd the troops wouldn't eat what we've given them. But when you think of "Supplies" as ammo, it makes a bit more sense that a local commander would try to hold back a reserve in case of combat.

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Post #: 26
- 1/23/2003 10:22:08 PM   
Grumbling Grogn


Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2002
From: Texas!
Status: offline 		Okay,

I think I have it. It just seems to me that this units fatigue is increasing at an awful high rate to be just maliaria.

But, I have not been watching the fatigue real close and they have been bombed 2-3 times in the last week or so... :(

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Post #: 27
- 1/23/2003 10:28:59 PM   
dherche

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Woodsboro, MD
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by marc420
[B]Just curious (and too lazy to test it on my own).

Was anyone tracking the overall supply level at the base over the turns? I'm curious if Supply was being used, even if it wasn't showing up on the unit screen.

[/B][/QUOTE]

marc420:

Here's what happen during the test.

I dropped an RCT at Tulagi (start of scenario 19). Exhausted all supply points. The unit required 251 supply points. I dropped 8000 supply points at the base. First day of unloading the Trans TF dropped 650 points. The base stats were 650 points on hand 251 required. The units stats were 0 supplies, 251 required. The next day, the trans TF dropped more supplies. The base stats were something like (can't remember exactly since I am at work... he he) 3000 points on hand 251 required. The unit stats were 1004 on hand 251 required. (hence my theory of 4 times the amount needed before the unit started using them; 4 x 251 = 1004).

After the Trans TF was fully unloaded, the stats were roughly
Base Supplies: 6550
Required: 251

Unit Supplies: 995
Required: 251

I monitored this for several days. (BTW, it was head to head game shutting down air and naval activity on both sides)

The unit lost 9 points a day as well as the base. (No building, no fighting, just sitting). I then ordered to expand port, airfield and fort. (I realize that this is not an ENG unit, but the manual states the units will build but taking a long period of time). The unit continued to expend supplies 9 points per day as well as the base.

The unit followed this pattern unit it got to around 500 points. Then it kept a pretty steady supply of about twice the amount needed (assuming it was drawing from the base supplies - didn't really calculate that).

And from my early post in this thread, I sucked all the base supplies away but the unit still maintained theirs (roughly 450 by this time) and continued the 9 pts/day routine.

Dumped another 1500 pts back on Tulagi and the unit's supplies jumped back over 500 (twice needed).

From this test, it appears the 2 supplies (base and unit) are independent. With that said, it's odd that both would decrement 9 pts/day.

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Post #: 28
- 1/23/2003 10:34:06 PM   
dherche

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 12/17/2002
From: Woodsboro, MD
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumbling Grogn
[B]Okay,

I think I have it. It just seems to me that this units fatigue is increasing at an awful high rate to be just maliaria.

But, I have not been watching the fatigue real close and they have been bombed 2-3 times in the last week or so... :( [/B][/QUOTE]

I think you are correct on the malaria.

The RCT's fatigue I dropped in Tulagi continued to rise even though nothing was happening to them (before I put them to work).

There is one thing certain...they won't do much damage in a fight without supplies.

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Post #: 29
HQ - 1/23/2003 11:16:34 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Place a HQ unit there and see what the fatigue does.
You don't need to send a complete HQ (I send 1 PBY groups worth)

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Post #: 30
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