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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/5/2013 12:21:14 AM   
22sec

 

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Status: offline 		There are plenty of photos available on Google Earth of the lovely German countryside, and many show vistas with great line of sights out past two kilometers.

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/5/2013 2:01:33 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		wodin, haven't had time to read the report yet (and haven't spent much time in Germany in 20 years!) but I also don't know about that number. the thing is that much of germany is fairly hilly, and where there are hills there is potential for long LoS. Sure, the LoS is broken up by forest, towns, etc. but there would often be a long-range shot where vehicles crested a hill, etc. (after which they might disappear again behind a village, etc.).

< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/5/2013 3:01:58 AM >

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Post #: 32
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/5/2013 12:24:05 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

NATO wants to engage at 4km.

Soviets want to engage at 1km.

Average Engagement range is 2.5km.

That works out.

I've been over most of the ground that the 3rd AD fights over in this game. There are lots of places where you can see 5 or 6km with no problems. In southern Germany, well that's different. Very short ranges down there. North German Plain, very different again. You can see forever up there.


This sounds about right. Again I'd be interested in seeing the design considerations, and Capn Darwin mentioned having all this explained in better detail after 2.02 is wrapped up.

Something else folks need to understand is this is not a game about individual weapon ballistics. It is at platoon scale so it's a group of weapons firing at a group of targets, so there's a lot of fudging involved for lines of sight and rates of fire, etc. That's fine, as long as the design assumptions are consistently applied to both sides, where essentially NATO has an advantage at engaging at longer ranges and Soviets want to get up close and personal.

MR, spot on about southern Germany. 1AD GDP in northern Bavaria was dicey. The Fichtelgebirge near Bayreuth wasn't called "Little Switzerland" for nothing. As more scenarios are developed with different terrain, players will start to see the natural strengths and weaknesses of both sides.

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Post #: 33
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/5/2013 6:23:30 PM   
british exil


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Status: offline 		I live in Germany, to be precise in the was what called the British sector. The part of Stadthagen where I live is on a hill, on clear days I can see about 30km. I can see a powerplant with bare eyes 30kmaway. Now if i were to use binoculars or something similar I would be able to see even clearer. Maybe an amoured coloum creating dust?

Just north of Stadthagen is where the flat northern countyside is. They say that on a Wednesday you can see who is coming to visit you on the weekend. You can see so far.

Southeast of Stadthagen 1 1/2 hrs travel are the Harz mountains, very hilly terrain that goes right down towards Fulda, not ideal tank country.

This is the area where the BAOR were to hold the line. From the Harz to the area where I live. Munster and Celle two major tank areas, heavy tanks in fact were stationed here. Bundeswehr and BAOR. I think they knew why. My dad used to call it Panzer country.

I live 1/2 from Hameln and Rinteln. So the terrain can change fast, after 1 hr travel from hilly to flat.

Long range but also short range would be needed.

Mat

The countryside has not really changed in the last 20-30 years in the least.

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Post #: 34
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/7/2013 7:37:20 PM   
killkess

 

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Status: offline 		I iust want to contribute to this topic.

Studies of the geografic institute of the german armed forced which took place around 1980 came to the following conclusion:

55% of all LOS distances would lie at under 500m
45% would be over 500m
only 17% of all LOS would be greater than 1500m
only 10% would be over 2000m
only 5% would be over 2500m

Source: "Gefechtsfeld Mitteleuropa"; Franz Uhle-Wettler
What is interesting to note is that areas with inherent very short ranges like the "Schwarzwald, Harz or Rhurgebiet" were already skipped to get more realistic results.

And in the region where i live in lower saxony (Lüneburg south east of Hamburg) LOS distances of more than 1km is the exception.

< Message edited by killkess -- 11/7/2013 8:39:18 PM >

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/8/2013 5:26:56 AM   
trebcourie

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: killkess

I iust want to contribute to this topic.

Studies of the geografic institute of the german armed forced which took place around 1980 came to the following conclusion:

55% of all LOS distances would lie at under 500m
45% would be over 500m
only 17% of all LOS would be greater than 1500m
only 10% would be over 2000m
only 5% would be over 2500m

Source: "Gefechtsfeld Mitteleuropa"; Franz Uhle-Wettler
What is interesting to note is that areas with inherent very short ranges like the "Schwarzwald, Harz or Rhurgebiet" were already skipped to get more realistic results.

And in the region where i live in lower saxony (Lüneburg south east of Hamburg) LOS distances of more than 1km is the exception.


Which is why, when playing as NATO, I look for that 5% long-range engagement areas.

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Post #: 36
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/8/2013 11:50:16 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Yeah but in game it's more than 5% terrain are I reckon that offers greater than 5 hex view..maybe more than 10% great than four hex and I'd say you get more than 17% greater than three aswell. I mean look at that just under half the engagements would be over 500m..thats one hex..prob kill the game abit that though, but still we are well off that figure.

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/8/2013 12:51:40 PM >

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/8/2013 3:32:07 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

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Status: offline 		I can't say for the modern tank stuff, but I know in WWII the majority of infantry combat and infantry kills was supposed to have occured at under 100 yds. So the small arms spec's don't seem off. Not like there would be a huge difference in accuracy of those weapons. The M1 Rifle and Springfield 1918 are very accurate weapons but firing them while you are taking live fire would be completely different then what you could do at a range. So those spec's, at least seem pretty reasonable.

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/8/2013 4:32:32 PM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		@Grumpyme It's not about accuracy it's about long distance engagement ranges and how the real life terrain on average restricts you to below 2000m..so nothing to do with the weapons but to do with the terrain.

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 12:49:24 AM   
MikeAP

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

@Grumpyme It's not about accuracy it's about long distance engagement ranges and how the real life terrain on average restricts you to below 2000m..so nothing to do with the weapons but to do with the terrain.


No offense, but I think you have been missing the point this entire thread... Or maybe I'm not making myself clear. I'm not talking about terrain, but the technical effective range of real word weapon ranges in comparison to the game values.

You are hijacking the thread

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Post #: 40
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 1:35:17 AM   
wodin


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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Offense taken (why do people say that when they know they are going to offend?)..I actually thought the thread was about weapon range in game. Sorry didn't realise you had the monopoly here. Can you tell the others who are also talking about combat range in Germany to go away aswell?

You need to understand that if they put in real world by the book values into the game the game wouldn't work properly..they have to be tailored to fit into the abstract nature of the game and it's terrain etc..shame you don't get that.

I shall now leave your thread, though I hadn't posted in it for abit until today.

If you gnat to have a private conversation with the developer I suggest you do it through email or PM..on a forum people join in on the discussion..and I do believe I've stayed on track..whether you like my view is another thing..but you can't talk real world ranges with regard to this game due to the very reasons I mention..I'm trying to teach you something..but obviously it hasn't worked.

I wouldn't be so worked up IF I had gone off topic..but being accused of hyjacking the thread is over the top.

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/9/2013 2:42:04 AM >

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 2:11:25 AM   
CapnDarwin


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Let take a deep breath on both sides. The issue here was a discussion of effective range and what is means. MikeAP sees it one way others see it based on the terrain and we (OTS) have our own definition explained upstream in this thread that is used in the game engine. The fact that all 3+ sides see effective range differently is fine and can be discussed here.

Bottom line no ones hijacking any threads as long as we are on the topic of Weapons Effective Range.


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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 2:56:49 AM   
MikeAP

 

Posts: 266
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Status: offline 		I understand the OTS definition, and all is well.

Wodin, youre not off topic, but you keep steering the conversation by saying that in game weapon values should be dictated by terrain. That's not the discussion here.

No bad blood. I'm all for a conversation about terrain analysis in Germany in regards to weapon effectiveness. It's just not what this topic was about. This was just suppose to be in regards to the games raw data.

Edit - Wodin, in not sure if you realize it, but real world values are in fact used in game. The 'max range', although slightly off in some cases, are in the ball park. it is just the'effective range' that were short (explained by CD)

< Message edited by MikeAP -- 11/9/2013 4:03:41 AM >

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 7:02:18 AM   
killkess

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeAP

Edit - Wodin, in not sure if you realize it, but real world values are in fact used in game. The 'max range', although slightly off in some cases, are in the ball park. it is just the'effective range' that were short (explained by CD)


And just in case you havent realized it yet Max range by definition is mostly determined by the technical specs of the weapon system. In contrast there are several ways to look at the definition of "effective" range.Wodin looks at a definition which includes the current environment. What will be the effective range of a TOW inside a heavy forrest? Next to nill. As the terrain is quit some abstracted in this game you also have to take shorter los into account when determing the firing distances of the units. There is another thread where was explained that a open hex provides more cover and concealment than farmland. This suggests that abstracted there is a lot more buildings and stuff in the empty hexes than you think. So the open LOS distances you think to see arent there, hence they gave shorter effective ranges to compensate the abstracted nature of the game.

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Post #: 44
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 10:50:42 AM   
MikeAP

 

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quote:

And just in case you havent realized it yet Max range by definition is mostly determined by the technical specs of the weapon system


That's what I just said...

quote:

What will be the effective range of a TOW inside a heavy forrest?


I would argue that the effective range of a TOW-2B shouldn't change, regardless of its environment. However, a TOW used in a forest should receive all sorts of terrain/line of sight penalties.

The only thing terrain dictates (or should) in terms of weapon effectiveness is line of sight.

< Message edited by MikeAP -- 11/9/2013 11:53:06 AM >

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 11:52:53 AM   
TheWombat_matrixforum

 

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Status: offline 		This thread is now officially a semantics thread, about the definition of the word "effective." Sorry, but I doubt we'll get any sort of consensus on that one!

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 12:08:11 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		As far as the LOS in FPC:RS being right/wrong, too long/too short, remember these maps were made from Google Earth. If you think the open distances are too great complain to Mother Earth and the Germans. I used the elevations and LOS obstructions as I see them displayed in GE.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 47
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 1:14:41 PM   
killkess

 

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Status: offline 		What is the resolution of the elevations in GE?

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RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 1:20:33 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: killkess

What is the resolution of the elevations in GE?


It's in single meter increments.

Good Hunting.

MR


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Post #: 49
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/9/2013 2:13:51 PM   
CapnDarwin


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Status: offline 		killkess, each elevation is 25-30 meters of height in most cases. There is a bit of artistic license in setting the map elevations. MR is right that the system resolves distances and math in meter resolution.

We are looking at adding more elevation granularity and height as we go. Especially with rougher terrain appearing in the near future.

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Post #: 50
RE: Weapons Effective Range - 11/11/2013 2:10:28 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		The first scenario pack will have much more mountainous terrain in it. Southern Germany is a rough place. Should make the combat resolution very different.

Looking forward to it.

Good Hunting.

MR

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