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Help with Sea Boxes - 11/13/2013 6:07:14 PM   
Ibram

 

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I have read the manual a few times in different sections and I'm still confused as to how Sea Boxes play into the game. I guess I'm dumb.

What is the advantage of placing ships in a higher sea box and when would you not want to do that? etc.

Thanks
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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/13/2013 6:14:02 PM   
obermeister


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High box = greater chance for you to find. If your opponent finds and chooses to include your high box, he will get fewer surprise points which equals less damage to your task force.

The main reason to not go into the highest box possible is that not all your ships/aircraft can make the box. If you split your forces, it allows your opponent (if he finds) to be able to attack your forces piecemeal. Also, if you have convoys you will want to protect the 0 box to help defend them.

For an example, if you have forces in the 4 box, you have a 40% base chance of finding, where if you are only in the 1 box you have a 10% chance.

The naval system in this game takes a LOT of getting used to. It's the best system I've ever seen in a game of this scale.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/13/2013 6:23:42 PM   
paulderynck


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See also Players Manual Vol 1, section 3.4.3 starting on pg. 32.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/13/2013 6:41:59 PM   
Ibram

 

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Thank you obermeister, that helped alot. Paul, I'll read that section right away. Thanks for the prompt responses.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/13/2013 8:18:42 PM   
Ibram

 

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Now that I read what you have suggested I'm seeing a the correlation between manuals a little better now. I was reading the RAC manual first and wasnt getting a good feel of things.

It seems to me that the RAC is more of a law book or rule book with absolutes and the players manuals seem to be more about practical application of the RAC.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/13/2013 8:59:59 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ibram

Now that I read what you have suggested I'm seeing a the correlation between manuals a little better now. I was reading the RAC manual first and wasnt getting a good feel of things.

It seems to me that the RAC is more of a law book or rule book with absolutes and the players manuals seem to be more about practical application of the RAC.

That's a good description of the difference. The first part of the Players Manual volume I also has some of background on the game itself as well as the scenario descriptions in detail.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 1:54:19 AM   
76mm


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Well I'm reading Volume 1 before the RAC and am thinking that I'm doing it wrong, because Volume 1 explains why to do things before you understand how things work.

I'm not much of a naval player--could someone explain what the sea boxes are supposed to represent in real life? Some sort of particular deployment/patrol stance? From what I've read so far the concept is very abstract and counter-intuitive. What the heck does it mean IRL for me to "move up a sea box" during my turn?

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 2:08:39 AM   
SeaMonkey

 

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I'm assuming again that because there are different levels of vigilance represented by the numbered boxes, that some nations naval doctrine and vessel technology are limited to degrees of attentiveness they can be deployed in? So the higher numbered boxes represent an active commitment to engage the enemy, ie search and destroy, correct? A lower number or zero represents a taskforce's intent on "sneaking through" or a passive stance when traversing a seazone?

I'm wondering if there is a MWiF feature to represent a TF configuration where the screening vessels would protect the more vulnerable ones(transport, CVs, etc)? Sort of like the enemy fighters having to vanquish the escorts of a bomber mission before they can actually attack the bombers. And if so, is there an orderly echelon of lighter naval vessels that engage first(DD, DE), then mediums to heavy(CLs,CAs to BBs) that screen the center of the TF?

One other question that comes to mind. Is there some chance that one of two opposing TFs, recognizing that they may be out classed, decide the better part of valor is to run and fight another day, assuming they possess the speed to exit the battlefield?

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 2:13:10 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey

I'm assuming again that because there are different levels of vigilance represented by the numbered boxes, that some nations naval doctrine and vessel technology are limited to degrees of attentiveness they can be deployed in? So the higher numbered boxes represent an active commitment to engage the enemy, ie search and destroy, correct? A lower number or zero represents a taskforce's intent on "sneaking through" or a passive stance when traversing a seazone?

But if it is only a question of intent, then why do you automatically drop a sea box if you stay at sea at the end of a turn, and why does it cost a turn to move up a sea box?

SeaMonkey, from what I've seen of the rules, they include mechanisms like those you ask about. Just don't ask me to explain them...

< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/14/2013 3:14:26 AM >

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 2:26:03 AM   
SeaMonkey

 

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Could it be that because of fatigue from being on "high alert" at sea, that the efficiency response drops a degree, hence the TF drop a numbered box?

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 2:46:11 AM   
brian brian

 

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The number of the box represents time spent in the sea area. Each ship is rated for total range (fuel capacity - how many zones it can enter), and speed (how many movement points it can spend). Each zone costs one point of range and one movement point, and each higher box costs one additional movement point.

Faster ships can thus cover more of a sea area in the same amount of time, represented by the higher box. Ships that attempt to patrol a sea zone when starting from a distant port will be able to spend less time in their destination area, so they end up in a lower box as they use their movement points to reach the zone they are moving to.

Air units can only enter the sea boxes from a coastal hex in that zone, and their hex-based movement points work a little differently, as they pay the box # to enter each higher box, cumulatively, so only the longest range planes can enter the highest boxes.

(And no, the USN or other navies refueling at sea isn't represented per se but is probably a part of the factors on the counters).

Generally being in a lower box represents moving through a zone (an intercepted task force must be placed in a box for combat), or having reached the zone from a port one or more zones away.


There isn't much screening in the current rules set. In surface combat, the owning player selects ships to suffer the combat results, so his transports and CVs are effectively screened as long as he has enough surface combat ships to take all the results. Unless the enemy player surprised his forces and can spend surprise points to select the targets instead. In naval air combat, each side alternates picking a combat result and the juicy targets can't be screened.

WiF uses an I Go You Go system of course, so when you move your naval forces out to sea, they are sitting there when the other player can then move his forces into the zone. At that point either player can decide to initiate combat, and each side rolls "search dice" to see if their forces find the enemy. It is as likely as not this fails to produce any combat at all if each side rolls higher than the highest number sea-box where they have a unit. It could also turn out that one side has enough "surprise points" to avoid combat altogether if they wish (i.e. they spotted the enemy, but weren't discovered themselves).

If there is no successful search by either side, both sides remain in the zone until the next impulse, when combat could possibly be initiated again. After any round of actual combat, either side may abort the combat by returning all of their units in every box in the zone to port. This can't be intercepted in that particular zone, but if the aborting forces must cross into another zone to return to port, the enemy side can attempt to intercept them in that zone. Speed, i.e. movement points, aren't used for this aside from limiting which ports a unit can return to as they basically make a move back to port in reverse of the moving out procedure, with the same limits of range and movement.

(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 2:51:16 AM   
paulderynck


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You cannot move "up" in sea boxes once you've deployed. The highest you can get to is determined by how many movement points you have and if you use them all, you can never get higher. Since you expend those points both transiting sea zones as well as moving up in boxes, then the farther you are from base, the lower the sea box you must occupy. Similarly, the higher your sea box, the more limited your return to base range will be.

Higher boxes are better for finding the enemy and supporting invasions.

These are game mechanisms but their result is a well crafted simulation. Having to drop a box at the end of a turn is a mechanism that does two things:
1. A fleet coming out from port this turn is more efficient than one that stayed at sea, and
2. Eventually you hit the zero box and must return to base, because ships cannot stay at sea interminably.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 2:53:41 AM   
brian brian

 

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Yes, you can keep units at sea at the end of the turn, and yes, their efficiency is judged to drop by not returning to base for refit, refuel, rest, etc.

In fact it is an important tactic when you are blockading an enemy force in their harbors, otherwise you might not have an intercepting force on the first impulse of the new turn. Similarly, you need an escorting force in the 1 box for the convoys in the 0 box, so at the end of the turn it drops down to the 0 box to serve as escorts on that first impulse, which might be the enemy's turn to move, though you can't be 100% sure in advance.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 3:27:51 AM   
76mm


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guys thanks for the excellent explanations, really helpful. Not sure if everyone had as much trouble with these concepts as I did, but this thread might be worth one of the rapidly-accumulating stickies.

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RE: Help with Sea Boxes - 11/14/2013 3:49:43 AM   
FroBodine


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Oh, I had super trouble with this concept. I asked in another thread, and got a decent answer, but I was still confused. This thread absolutely makes it clear as clearer mud.

I really appreciate all the help, especially brian brian and paulderynck's! So many things like this just need better explanations in the manuals!

Thanks again!

< Message edited by jglazier -- 11/14/2013 4:50:10 AM >

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