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Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 12:21:31 PM

Xelvonar

Posts: 16
Joined: 10/22/2003
From: Watsonville, CA
Status: offline

So, what am I doing wrong here...

I'm setting up the CW convoy system and I want to convoy a resource from Rouyn, Canada to the UK. Right now according to the production planning form, it is being used to produce in Montreal, and both the Action (Production) and the Destination (Toronto, Canada [61, 309]) are in black, indicating (I believe) that these were computed by the software and not set by me as a default.

I click the red arrow to switch the radio button to Defaults, then click "Where to" and click Glasgow, where there is an idle factory. According to the production planning form, there are unused convoys in the three sea zones needed to ship the resource to Glasgow via Halifax. I then click recompute. But when it recomputes, the resource is still going to Montreal. (See screenshot.) The Action entry is now green, indicating that a default action is set, but the Destination is black, indicating that the computer decided to send it to Montreal, ignoring my default.

So, what am I doing wrong here? I would attach the save game file, but apparently I can't.

Attachment (1)

Post #: 1

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 12:33:11 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
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I would guess that having the possibility for the resource to be used in UK (using 3 convoys and having the possibility of being sunk) against the more rational of using it in place, the program selects the latter and overrides yours.

Do you have an excess of resources in Canada while you still have those 7 factories idle (in UK, I guess)? In other words, would the the Toronto factory be idle then?

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/14/2013 1:34:05 PM >

(in reply to Xelvonar)

Post #: 2

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 12:58:19 PM

Red Prince

Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline

I am planning to do another test on this issue this morning. This type of problem has plagued MWiF for some time, and while it has improved a lot, there still seem to be problems to iron out. I don't think they're actually bugs . . . rather something wrong with the logic being used. I'll do my best to identify the problem over the next few days.

-Aaron

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 3

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 1:28:35 PM

Xelvonar

Posts: 16
Joined: 10/22/2003
From: Watsonville, CA
Status: offline

What I'm trying to set up is something I saw in a setup somewhere where the Australian resources are convoyed to Canada via relatively safer and shorter chains than would be needed to ship them all the way to the UK. Then the Canadaian resources would be shipped to the UK via the North Atlantic. I also have set a default Australia -> Montreal with convoys in the Pacific, but it isn't shipping them either - they're sitting idle.

Can I email a save game file to someone so they can see what's going on?

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 4

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 2:02:14 PM

Red Prince

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Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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If you think you saw that setup on this forums, it may have been from an AAR I put together about a year ago. I use the same setup, 2 from AUS to Canada, and then the ones in Canada to the UK. I'll be using a similar setup while I'm testing the routing choices the AI makes, so there's no need to send a saved game.

-Aaron

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Xelvonar)

Post #: 5

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 2:07:05 PM

Neilster

Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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Sending Australian resources to Canada and Canadian ones to Britain has been mentioned a few times lately.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Red Prince)

Post #: 6

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 2:24:03 PM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xelvonar

What I'm trying to set up is something I saw in a setup somewhere where the Australian resources are convoyed to Canada via relatively safer and shorter chains than would be needed to ship them all the way to the UK. Then the Canadaian resources would be shipped to the UK via the North Atlantic. I also have set a default Australia -> Montreal with convoys in the Pacific, but it isn't shipping them either - they're sitting idle.

Can I email a save game file to someone so they can see what's going on?

I got it wrong, you're correct, the CAN fact needs to be assigned the AUS res if you do it this way, so that you can send the CAN res to UK. Because I was thinking you could send the AUS to UK through CAN, but I just remembered that, at least in WIF:

quote:

Transporting resources by sea
If you can�t rail a resource to a usable factory, you may be able to rail it to a port and then ship it overseas through a chain of sea areas, each containing convoy points. If that chain of sea areas extends to a port, you may then be able to rail the resource from that port to a usable factory.
You can rail a resource point both before and after shipping it overseas but you can not ship it overseas, then rail it, then ship it overseas again.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 11/14/2013 3:24:12 PM >

(in reply to Xelvonar)

Post #: 7

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 4:09:02 PM

Xelvonar

Posts: 16
Joined: 10/22/2003
From: Watsonville, CA
Status: offline

Yep, I knew that rule. I guess the designers felt it would was unrealistically long to go sea-land-sea, plus it would let the UK ship all their Pacific resources via the North Atlantic via Canada.

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 8

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/14/2013 9:46:16 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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Looking at the Global map in the OP, there aren't near enough CPs in the Atlantic, Central, Faroes, etc sea zones. Could it be that any resources that can be railed to factories will go that way when others that must be shipped overseas create demands on a CP chain? Hence the Canadian ones are forced to stay in Canada and the Australian ones are wasted...

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 11/14/2013 10:46:38 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/17/2013 8:46:36 AM

dale1066

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Joined: 6/23/2007
Status: offline

I'm still having endless issues getting my resources to be transported the way i wish them I've been stuck at imp 2 for a week now trying to get this to work. As mentioned in Cwif back in 2002 there were the same issues but it was possible to black list sea areas/hexes to allow the routing algorithm to be tweaked into "inefficiencies" eg blanking the east med to all the indian resources forcing them the long way round (but safe from Italian interference) etc

So in my set up for example (having 10 and 5 cps in FG and BOB to avoid the +1 search modifier ) although I have spare cps in the Faeroes gap (FG) for shipping the resources from the Natl to uk, the algorithm insist it wishes to use biscay (I've tried using the route planner to override this by forcing the reqd number of resources to go via FG but these seem to be ignored. The knock on effect is then the res from NATL uses up the biscay cps then the indian res (which insists on coming through the med even tho' i want it to go the long way round can't make it home. Adding an extra cp to Biscay (not ideal but will try just to get it home just means that there are now two spare cps in FG

Sorry to keep banging on about this but having efficient CP set up is an important part of the CW play (i've lost many a game as the cw by running out of CPS in the right place at the right time ) and having to put out extras or some in the wrong places because the routing alg can't handle it/or the UI is too complex to use is very annoying.

As a software developer I appreciate that this is a toughie to track down (as a stop gap the blacklist could be put back in ?) It'd take me a few days or so to redo and write up the testing I've tried to do for this if that would help. Alternatively Is there a test plan for this that I could follow/extend?

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 10

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/17/2013 3:26:37 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dale1066

I'm still having endless issues getting my resources to be transported the way i wish them I've been stuck at imp 2 for a week now trying to get this to work. As mentioned in Cwif back in 2002 there were the same issues but it was possible to black list sea areas/hexes to allow the routing algorithm to be tweaked into "inefficiencies" eg blanking the east med to all the indian resources forcing them the long way round (but safe from Italian interference) etc

So in my set up for example (having 10 and 5 cps in FG and BOB to avoid the +1 search modifier ) although I have spare cps in the Faeroes gap (FG) for shipping the resources from the Natl to uk, the algorithm insist it wishes to use biscay (I've tried using the route planner to override this by forcing the reqd number of resources to go via FG but these seem to be ignored. The knock on effect is then the res from NATL uses up the biscay cps then the indian res (which insists on coming through the med even tho' i want it to go the long way round can't make it home. Adding an extra cp to Biscay (not ideal but will try just to get it home just means that there are now two spare cps in FG

Sorry to keep banging on about this but having efficient CP set up is an important part of the CW play (i've lost many a game as the cw by running out of CPS in the right place at the right time ) and having to put out extras or some in the wrong places because the routing alg can't handle it/or the UI is too complex to use is very annoying.

As a software developer I appreciate that this is a toughie to track down (as a stop gap the blacklist could be put back in ?) It'd take me a few days or so to redo and write up the testing I've tried to do for this if that would help. Alternatively Is there a test plan for this that I could follow/extend?

Sorry about that.

One of the beta testers did a pretty detailed analysis of this a couple of days ago. I haven't had time to examine the saved game, instructions, and his identified problems list yet.

If you could send us a saved game with similar details, that certainly wouldn't hurt. Thank you for offering. Please send files to MadExcept@MatrixGames.com

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to dale1066)

Post #: 11

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/20/2013 12:07:36 PM

Louis_Davout

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Joined: 11/20/2013
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I tried breaking this down into a simple setup where I string a convoy line from Australia to Canada and then another convoy line from Canada to UK. No other convoys. The idea is to ship Australian resources to the 2 Canadian factories and then have all the Canadian resources go to UK factories. Spending quite a bit of time playing around with the Production Planning dialog gave no success in getting this to work. I can get the Australian resources to go to the Canada factories only if I force all the Canadian resources to be idle which is no use if I want them to go to the UK. Has anyone had any success doing this?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 12

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/20/2013 3:10:43 PM

Kham

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/20/2009
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the problem is that the override option is being overruled by an internal override somehow

If you try to override something that is impossible, obviously the red color text is appropriate

But when convoys are available I should be able to force them to carry my resource (within the rules, i.e. no sea-land-sea allowed)

If the algorithm cannot do it, a manual option might be an idea? I would not mind having to specify a series of sea areas for each resource during the production.

Thank you for working on this.

(in reply to Louis_Davout)

Post #: 13

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/21/2013 8:39:16 AM

Louis_Davout

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Joined: 11/20/2013
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Ok, so it sounds like what I am trying to do is just not possible at the moment. It's not just me being stoopid?

(in reply to Kham)

Post #: 14

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/21/2013 7:57:56 PM

Dabrion

Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
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I like to add some heat to this issue! Convoy routing has to get another usability iteration and a better description of the routing algorithm.
The combination of interface complexity and my non-knowledge about why my expectations are not met by the program is frustrating.

I cease-fired with the whole issue in prospect of changes to come.

(in reply to Louis_Davout)

Post #: 15

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 9:03:18 AM

Louis_Davout

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Joined: 11/20/2013
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I guess usability could be improved but there's no doubt an enormous pile of conflicting priorities on Steve's TO DO list. I can live with the current interface provided I could place a hard override where if I tell a resource to go to a particular factory then it will not try and go somewhere else.

Regardless, well done to Steve and Matrix Games for making this amazingly complex game available. Much appreciated.

(in reply to Dabrion)

Post #: 16

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 12:43:04 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

I think that Steve is the only one that understands the "Convoy" system? I know that I'm not very confident in what I'm doing with it. But then I'm not the sharpest tack in the box either!

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Post #: 17

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 2:04:55 PM

gw15

Posts: 919
Joined: 3/21/2010
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I'm probably not a good WiF player because I don't try to micro the resources to each location. If a resource makes it to some factory I consider it a victory of some sort. I let the system do it's thing and move on to more exciting things like how to counter-invade Greece after Italy gets frisky.

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 18

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 2:19:31 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bommerrang

I'm probably not a good WiF player because I don't try to micro the resources to each location. If a resource makes it to some factory I consider it a victory of some sort. I let the system do it's thing and move on to more exciting things like how to counter-invade Greece after Italy gets frisky.

That sounds fine, but can you play the game without setting up the convoy system? And if you don't set it up, what will happen to the production side of things? It would be nice if you could automate all of that side of it!

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to gw15)

Post #: 19

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 3:31:45 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

quote:

ORIGINAL: bommerrang

I'm probably not a good WiF player because I don't try to micro the resources to each location. If a resource makes it to some factory I consider it a victory of some sort. I let the system do it's thing and move on to more exciting things like how to counter-invade Greece after Italy gets frisky.

That sounds fine, but can you play the game without setting up the convoy system? And if you don't set it up, what will happen to the production side of things? It would be nice if you could automate all of that side of it!

There are default setups for most major powers for most scenarios. Those will put your convoys out to sea. See Saved Setups.

As the game progresses through turns, you can use the Unused Convoy check box on the Production Planning form to locate where you have excess capacity. The Naval Review Summary form can be used to find extra convoys that are sitting in ports.

But automating the deployment of convoys around the world is out-of-scope for automation (in my opinion). That would require analyzing the risk to the convoy pipelines from enemy submarines, naval air, and surface raiders.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 20

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 3:34:00 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

quote:

ORIGINAL: bommerrang

I'm probably not a good WiF player because I don't try to micro the resources to each location. If a resource makes it to some factory I consider it a victory of some sort. I let the system do it's thing and move on to more exciting things like how to counter-invade Greece after Italy gets frisky.

That sounds fine, but can you play the game without setting up the convoy system? And if you don't set it up, what will happen to the production side of things? It would be nice if you could automate all of that side of it!

There are default setups for most major powers for most scenarios. Those will put your convoys out to sea. See Saved Setups.

As the game progresses through turns, you can use the Unused Convoy check box on the Production Planning form to locate where you have excess capacity. The Naval Review Summary form can be used to find extra convoys that are sitting in ports.

But automating the deployment of convoys around the world is out-of-scope for automation (in my opinion). That would require analyzing the risk to the convoy pipelines from enemy submarines, naval air, and surface raiders.

And I thought that advanced calculus was hard!

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 21

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 3:39:20 PM

markb50k

Posts: 1224
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From: Spring, TX
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Like mentioned above, an interim and immediate need is that we can, if we choose, set the default override, and it needs to work.

Steve, I know you have a bunch on your plate, but are you looking at the issues with default overrides not actually making something change? I think that is the biggest issue, and if that was solved, most could get by with the screen as it currently is, which I actually like. Just allow us to be very specific in telling resources where to go and having the compute make it happen. Obviously if someone sets a default override to send two different resources to the same factory, the system cant fix that, but that is user error, and can be accepted as Working as Intended.

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 22

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 4:33:32 PM

paulderynck

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If it were only so easy to program as it is to say!

If the program tries to optimize the remaining resource routing after a user overrides just some of them, it means the programmed routing must not behave as optimally as it was designed to do - but only sometimes!

Seems to me that the only choices are 100% manual versus the way the program behaves now. Mind you, given time, Steve can make improvements, it's just that there are numerous conflicting priorities at the moment.

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Post #: 23

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 4:57:43 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

If it were only so easy to program as it is to say!

If the program tries to optimize the remaining resource routing after a user overrides just some of them, it means the programmed routing must not behave as optimally as it was designed to do - but only sometimes!

Seems to me that the only choices are 100% manual versus the way the program behaves now. Mind you, given time, Steve can make improvements, it's just that there are numerous conflicting priorities at the moment.

What would happen if you just ignored the whole convoy/resources/factory thing?

_____________________________

Tony

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 24

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 5:30:30 PM

Centuur

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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

If it were only so easy to program as it is to say!

If the program tries to optimize the remaining resource routing after a user overrides just some of them, it means the programmed routing must not behave as optimally as it was designed to do - but only sometimes!

Seems to me that the only choices are 100% manual versus the way the program behaves now. Mind you, given time, Steve can make improvements, it's just that there are numerous conflicting priorities at the moment.

What would happen if you just ignored the whole convoy/resources/factory thing?

You can't build the units that you are entitled to, according to the rule book. One of the disadvantages of trying to make a board game into a computer game...

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Post #: 25

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 8:52:41 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

If it were only so easy to program as it is to say!

If the program tries to optimize the remaining resource routing after a user overrides just some of them, it means the programmed routing must not behave as optimally as it was designed to do - but only sometimes!

Seems to me that the only choices are 100% manual versus the way the program behaves now. Mind you, given time, Steve can make improvements, it's just that there are numerous conflicting priorities at the moment.

What would happen if you just ignored the whole convoy/resources/factory thing?

You can't build the units that you are entitled to, according to the rule book. One of the disadvantages of trying to make a board game into a computer game...

Yea! The board game let you cheat

_____________________________

Tony

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Post #: 26

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 9:34:50 PM

Dabrion

Posts: 733
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From: Northpole
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Well if you load the default convoy lines you can probably get away with it if you at least replace losses.

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 27

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/22/2013 10:24:38 PM

Toby42

Posts: 1626
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

Well if you load the default convoy lines you can probably get away with it if you at least replace losses.

I remember that in one of Steve's videos. I'll have to run it again to see how he did that?

_____________________________

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Post #: 28

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/24/2013 12:34:17 PM

monkla

Posts: 56
Joined: 3/16/2003
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline

I had the same problem with the whole Canada/Australia/Resources thing. I then gave up on that and decided to plot the Canadian resources to UK only. Thing is, after issuing orders to two resources to the two Canadian factories, as soon as I tried to order a 3rd or 4th resource, they also would only go to Canadian factories. I could not get Canadian resources to leave Canada, full stop. Is it me or the game?

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 29

RE: Production Planning and Convoy Troubles - 11/24/2013 2:30:02 PM

Dabrion

Posts: 733
Joined: 11/5/2013
From: Northpole
Status: offline

Not worth the time&trouble at the moment.

(in reply to monkla)

Post #: 30