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Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 7:29:59 PM

Karwoski

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I'm trying to load planes onto an air transport TF and I don't seem to have the option to do so. I've done some searching on the forum and while other people have had air transport TF issues, their problems don't seem to be at fault here.

The TF is an air transport TF with CVE Long Island and escorts. The air group is 19 F4Fs. The air group is unrestricted and the TF is docked, which are the two most common issues that have come up for other people in my searching.

But the TF still does not have a "load troops" option and the air group still does not have a "transfer to docked ship" option. I can transfer the air group to the CVE through the normal "transfer to ship" option, but since the CVE has a capacity of 16 and the squadron has 19 planes, they all show up damaged and I'm worried that I won't be able to unload them.

What do I have to do to make this work? Thanks!

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< Message edited by Karwoski -- 12/1/2013 8:30:31 PM >

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 7:31:10 PM

Karwoski

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And the air group:

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:00:09 PM

dr.hal

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Could it be that the aircraft are CV capable and thus don't need "transport". Usually it was land based planes that were in need of transport. Not sure if this is the problem, but it might be. Hal

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:07:18 PM

Bullwinkle58

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There's no transport-type ships in your TF. You can load the fighters onto the CVE as ship's compliment (with Transfer to Ship), and fly them from it too, but you can't make a CVE a merchant ship. If you want to transport the planes as cargo you need an xAK in the TF. Might be other types I'm not remembering.

Air Transport means the planes are wrapped up and not operable. To deliver them as cargo but ready to fly use an AKV.

Take a look at Appendix 20.1.2

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/1/2013 9:07:50 PM >

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:08:57 PM

paolorossi

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As far as I know you can't upload more than your capacity. If Long Island has room for 16 planes and your air squadron is 19, you can't upload it

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:19:52 PM

dr.hal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: teseo tesei

As far as I know you can't upload more than your capacity. If Long Island has room for 16 planes and your air squadron is 19, you can't upload it

That's true, the 10% rule.

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:28:32 PM

Karwoski

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I guess I had thought that CVEs could carry more than their listed capacity in the air transport role and that the planes wouldn't fly while en route but they'd arrive unboxed at the destination. I think we've all seen photos of way overloaded CVEs transporting full decks of P-39s and P-40s.

But apparently only AKVs can transport them unboxed and CVEs can only transport planes the same way that an air combat TF could - transfer on, sail there, transfer off? Is that correct? The forum won't let me post links, but there are other posts that have implied CVEs and AKVs have the same transport functionality. They must either be wrong or I'm misunderstanding them.

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:40:57 PM

Bullwinkle58

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You can put a CVE in an Air TF, load the planes as ships's company, and fly them ashore to a friendly base just as you can with any carrier. But the interface isn't giving you a button to Load Troops, which is what you need to transport them as cargo.

The game lets you put ships in TFs by type, but that doesn't mean every ship in the TF can do the primary mission. Here you can put CLs in an Air Transport TF for example, but CLs can't carry planes. Same with various mine TFs and others. You may want air cover over your Air Transport TF, so you can have CVEs. But you need xAKs or AKVs to do the mission of the TF type.

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:50:55 PM

Karwoski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You can put a CVE in an Air TF, load the planes as ships's company, and fly them ashore to a friendly base just as you can with any carrier. But the interface isn't giving you a button to Load Troops, which is what you need to transport them as cargo.

The game lets you put ships in TFs by type, but that doesn't mean every ship in the TF can do the primary mission. Here you can put CLs in an Air Transport TF for example, but CLs can't carry planes. Same with various mine TFs and others. You may want air cover over your Air Transport TF, so you can have CVEs. But you need xAKs or AKVs to do the mission of the TF type.

I really do appreciate your help with this, this is a lot more clear than the manual is. This looks like CVE Barnes in an air transport role to me, seems like if it was done regularly in real life it should be in the game:

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:52:38 PM

Karwoski

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Here's an unfortunately small picture of CVE Long Island doing in real life exactly what I want to do with her in the game - transporting more than 16 planes on her deck in an air transport role:

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< Message edited by Karwoski -- 12/1/2013 9:52:47 PM >

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 8:58:31 PM

dr.hal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karwoski

Here's an unfortunately small picture of CVE Long Island doing in real life exactly what I want to do with her in the game - transporting more than 16 planes on her deck in an air transport role:

The game tries to emulate reality as much as possible, but much like halving your distance to any wall, you will never get there. I do think in most aspects of the game, it does a good approximation given the scale and size of the game.

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 11:42:48 PM

dcpollay

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I would also point out that in your picture of the Barnes above, the P-38s on the deck have no wings. They are not ready to fly.

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/1/2013 11:45:27 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karwoski

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

You can put a CVE in an Air TF, load the planes as ships's company, and fly them ashore to a friendly base just as you can with any carrier. But the interface isn't giving you a button to Load Troops, which is what you need to transport them as cargo.

The game lets you put ships in TFs by type, but that doesn't mean every ship in the TF can do the primary mission. Here you can put CLs in an Air Transport TF for example, but CLs can't carry planes. Same with various mine TFs and others. You may want air cover over your Air Transport TF, so you can have CVEs. But you need xAKs or AKVs to do the mission of the TF type.

I really do appreciate your help with this, this is a lot more clear than the manual is. This looks like CVE Barnes in an air transport role to me, seems like if it was done regularly in real life it should be in the game:

The picture is not evidence it was done regularly. It's evidence it was done at least once. Subs carried gold bullion at least once; it's not in the game either. Or taking nuns out of the PI.

The Allies get over 2000 merchant transports. It's not hard to find a couple to haul planes.

Edit: a fast Google, including to the US Navy's official history site, only says that aircraft transport was among the missions the type was used for. I was unable to find any breakdown of percentage of use. CVEs were apparently widely used in the 1950s, especially during the Korean War, to transport crated aircraft forward. My impression in the game has always been that Langley and Long Beach were primarily to be used to ferry planes in the ways the game allows, but that "real" CVEs which come with air wings are not intended for this, although they can be used as load-on/fly-off assets if the player is willing to have them return to base with no air wing.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/2/2013 1:00:24 AM >

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/2/2013 3:29:53 AM

msieving1

Posts: 526
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Missouri
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karwoski

I'm trying to load planes onto an air transport TF and I don't seem to have the option to do so. I've done some searching on the forum and while other people have had air transport TF issues, their problems don't seem to be at fault here.

The TF is an air transport TF with CVE Long Island and escorts. The air group is 19 F4Fs. The air group is unrestricted and the TF is docked, which are the two most common issues that have come up for other people in my searching.

But the TF still does not have a "load troops" option and the air group still does not have a "transfer to docked ship" option. I can transfer the air group to the CVE through the normal "transfer to ship" option, but since the CVE has a capacity of 16 and the squadron has 19 planes, they all show up damaged and I'm worried that I won't be able to unload them.

What do I have to do to make this work? Thanks!

Any time you transfer air groups to a docked aircraft carrier, they will load in damaged condition. They'll usually repair by the time you get to the destination.

If you want to transfer an air group to a carrier without damage, undock the TF first. Then the air group will fly onto the carrier. That only works will carrier capable aircraft, of course.

The size of the air group shouldn't be a problem. You can have up to twice the carrier's capacity on board, but if there are more than 115% of capacity on board, no combat operations can be flown. You can still fly off planes to transfer to a base or another ship, though.

< Message edited by msieving1 -- 12/2/2013 4:31:03 AM >

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/2/2013 9:17:22 AM

LargeSlowTarget

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The picture is not evidence it was done regularly. It's evidence it was done at least once. Subs carried gold bullion at least once; it's not in the game either. Or taking nuns out of the PI.

In my personal mod you can take nurses out of the PI

From what I have read, CVE have been used a lot in the transport role. Some of the older AK-conversion types in fact did little else, but also the newer purpose-built CVEs were used as aircraft ferries.

Some examples:

"Card (ACV-11) was launched as AVG-11 21 February 1942 by Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corp., Tacoma Wash., under a Maritime Commission contract; sponsored by Mrs. J. Perry, reclassified ACV-11, 20 August 1942; and commissioned 8 November 1942, Captain J. B. Sykes in command.

Departing San Diego 18 January 1943, Card arrived at Hampton Roads 1 February for training in Chesapeake Bay. She ferried aircraft and troops for the North African invasion from New York to Casablanca (14 May-1 June) returning to Norfolk 5 July. She was reclassified CVE-11 on 15 July 1943. Card steamed from Norfolk as flagship of TG 21.14, one of the hunter-killer groups formed for offensive operations against German submarines."

"The second MIDWAY (CVE-63) was laid down as CHAPIN BAY 23 January 1943; renamed MIDWAY 3 April 1943; launched 17 August 1943; sponsored by Mrs. Howard Nixon Culter; and commissioned 23 October 1943, Capt. F. J. McKenna in command.

After shakedown on the west coast and two voyages to Pearl Harbor and one to Australia carrying replacement aircraft, MIDWAY joined Rear Admiral Bogan's Carrier Support Group 1 in June for the conquest of the Marianas."

You may want to dig through the ship histories at DANFS for more examples.

Edit: You can use the editor to give CVEs an "instant conversion" option to AKV type and back (add appropriate cargo capacity) - so they can be used as aircraft ferries with deckload cargo of planes which must be loaded/unloaded at port.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 12/2/2013 10:25:06 AM >

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/2/2013 12:08:10 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karwoski

I'm trying to load planes onto an air transport TF and I don't seem to have the option to do so. I've done some searching on the forum and while other people have had air transport TF issues, their problems don't seem to be at fault here.

The TF is an air transport TF with CVE Long Island and escorts. The air group is 19 F4Fs. The air group is unrestricted and the TF is docked, which are the two most common issues that have come up for other people in my searching.

But the TF still does not have a "load troops" option and the air group still does not have a "transfer to docked ship" option. I can transfer the air group to the CVE through the normal "transfer to ship" option, but since the CVE has a capacity of 16 and the squadron has 19 planes, they all show up damaged and I'm worried that I won't be able to unload them.

What do I have to do to make this work? Thanks!

Any time you transfer air groups to a docked aircraft carrier, they will load in damaged condition. They'll usually repair by the time you get to the destination.

To amend my original post, which is incorrect, I loaded a Downfall scenario to get immediate CVEs. (I don't have any to play with in either of my games and it's been a long time since I had any. Memories fade.)

You can load planes into deck cargo transport onto CVEs, even non-carrier-capable models. I loaded a P-38 unit at Manila. The provisos are 1) the CVE must be docked (whether there is a port size restriction I did not research.) 2) the planes are loaded 100% damaged.

To accomplish this you must use the "Transfer to Ship" button. There's no other way for non-carrier models. There is never a "Load Troops" button as there is when loading the same planes on an xAK or AKV.

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RE: Air transport TF issues - 12/2/2013 8:22:05 PM

Karwoski

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Joined: 2/3/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karwoski

I'm trying to load planes onto an air transport TF and I don't seem to have the option to do so. I've done some searching on the forum and while other people have had air transport TF issues, their problems don't seem to be at fault here.

The TF is an air transport TF with CVE Long Island and escorts. The air group is 19 F4Fs. The air group is unrestricted and the TF is docked, which are the two most common issues that have come up for other people in my searching.

But the TF still does not have a "load troops" option and the air group still does not have a "transfer to docked ship" option. I can transfer the air group to the CVE through the normal "transfer to ship" option, but since the CVE has a capacity of 16 and the squadron has 19 planes, they all show up damaged and I'm worried that I won't be able to unload them.

What do I have to do to make this work? Thanks!

Any time you transfer air groups to a docked aircraft carrier, they will load in damaged condition. They'll usually repair by the time you get to the destination.

If you want to transfer an air group to a carrier without damage, undock the TF first. Then the air group will fly onto the carrier. That only works will carrier capable aircraft, of course.

The size of the air group shouldn't be a problem. You can have up to twice the carrier's capacity on board, but if there are more than 115% of capacity on board, no combat operations can be flown. You can still fly off planes to transfer to a base or another ship, though.

This is what I ended up doing and it appears to be working as advertised. I was spooked by the planes showing up as damaged but it's now the next day and they're well on their way to repair. Thanks to all for the guidance and I'm glad I was able to do what I was attempting to do - this game is awfully powerful and flexible but sometimes it can be a little difficult to figure out!

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