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Road to victory - here " Global War "

 
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Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/11/2013 9:03:57 PM   
Kathi51!

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2013
Status: offline 		Dear All,

olympic spirit and all - in the end one wants to win.

Does one not?

The combination of two observations has been puzzling me for years:

1) Seldomly is a Global War campaign played out till the bitter end. Usually a moral check - " oh god, I just canīt stand this frustration " ( axis- canīt meet or better historical timeline ... France Spring 41 ****... )/ " oh god, this intimidation is just too much (allies - the bloody germans have just taken frigging Baku and itīs only 41... ) - leads to surrender ( next time the dice will not so terribly distort a game I would have won as my plan was so... ).

2) Most gameplay advice is usually represented in a most rational and in a " the game ends in 45 " manner.

Itīs at times almost like the guys selling life insurance and pension plans?

" Oh you must build these synth plants, or you might run out of oil in 42 ".

" Donīt fritter away your o chits, maybe you can ... "

" The Japs must build up their navy, or they wonīt stand a chance against the big green giant bla, bla, bla "

And so forth...

Make no mistake, Iīm not talking about silly or reckless play.

Itīs all about the psychological dimension. If one is not playing Winston or some ice cold superior WIF thinker, should one not as axis play the " get rich or die trying " card. That being the most rational road to victory?

Or not?

Very interested in feedback.

What about allies " live fast grow old " play.

Best regards

Post #: 1
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/11/2013 9:28:39 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Every game I've played has gone past mid '44. Many have gone to MA or MJ45 with the axis throwing in the towel when they fell below the possibility of a tie in VPs.

The problem with "get rich or die trying" is whether the axis is willing to take the consequences of failure. It's more fun to be on the offensive and axis players who try some high risk strategy and then quit when it fails, we find are loath for us to have included again in our gaming circle.

Of course if ALL agree the same writing is on the wall and the game is not that much fun, then sure, wrap it up. As we say, "what will we do when this game is finished?... why start another, of course!"

A lot of groups don't actually care about bidding for sides. They just use the historical VP levels and find the fun is in just playing the game, win or lose.


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Kathi51!)
Post #: 2
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/12/2013 2:00:43 AM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		At least for me, it's an artifact of my avid chess hobby. You can never quite play it, but there are objectively good moves and objectively bad moves. The random element that is present in WiF and is absent in chess makes it somewhat of a less accurate comparison, but you can still play to maximize your probabilities.


To me, playing well is a goal independent of winning and losing. I like to see good play for the sake of good play. But if one side's advantage tilts so far: because your abilities to react will deteriorate as you lose units and production, then the game can become pointless, there's only effectively one option, how you would like to lose, or pray for some one in a million series of dice rolls to turn things around.


Honestly, the games I most push for to end early are the ones where I'm in an overwhelmingly advantageous position (Germany breaking the Soviets is the most common example, not necessarily pushing far back, but annihilating the Red Army and leaving them without enough production to catch up). A won position is boring. But it is possible, even probable with very skilled play, to skirt that line between overwhelming Axis advantage and overwhelming Allied advantage, and as such, late game play is important to know how to do.


I do think however, it's not so much a psychological aspect of it, but that a lot of players don't really know how to do late game defense, and as such, mis-estimate how badly out of tilt a game has gone. There are points of no return, but the Allies especially can recover remarkably quickly if they know what they're doing. (It's harder for the Axis to recover from reverses in my experience, although it does happen. My first game back in a long long time, I didn't crack France until M/A 41, but went on to crush the Soviets in a slightly risky attack the same year, so it is possible)


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It's more fun to be on the offensive and axis players who try some high risk strategy and then quit when it fails, we find are loath for us to have included again in our gaming circle.




Fiddlesticks. Fighting grimly for each hex and impulse is the most exciting thing in all of WiF, and it's why Japan is probably my favorite power, trying to hold back that invincible green titan for as long as possible, you're never more alive.

(in reply to Kathi51!)
Post #: 3
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/12/2013 4:41:44 AM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline 		Automatic Victory condition is the only thing i play for, as either side. If along the way to this victory my opponent has a test of will and surrenders, i take it. Its not my business to talk them out of it.

Make no mistake, the cities of Berlin, London, Moscow, Paris, Pretoria, Rome, Canberra, Chungking, Delhi, Taihoku, and Tokyo, are the main territorial objectives. The dynamics to attain AV are varied but not impossible. There are many many intervening roadblocks along the way. Most are of your opponents making some are luck based.

Each game of WiF is a relationship between all the players. Each has a different reaction to adversity. Each a different way to wield power. You play a game together. You play each person differently. The weak link is not the 3-3 inf on the front line nor the surprised convoys. Its the player who cannot adjust to the breakthrough or the loss that shows a weakness to be exploited. That is where exploitation has its mental gut punch.

I've enjoyed the many games of WiF played in the past. Few went to 45. Most just dissolved like sugar in warm water. Time has not tainted the overall sweetness even if cold and remote as a memory.

Truthfully I'm looking forward to playing MWiF with anyone who wants to anywhere in the world. Once I'm convinced net-play is stable enough for the enjoyment of chatting/messaging while i sip my fine bourbon/hot tea or cold coffee, its game on.

At 55 i have no illusions to what winning is. Winning is a device that ranks players for a fraction of a moment in time.

I play not just to win, but for Victory.
Sweet Victory in all forms is my holy grail. I dare say it should be everyone's quest playing any game.

Time spent is the currency of victory. How you play is your Personal victory. Real victory is the shared journey.

My own personal material victory standard in MWiF is AV.

Like Raquel Welsh in her prime. Oh! Automatic Victory how i long for thee.

Truth is I'm not as good as i think i am, and probably worse than many. Still, my knights-errant quest is before me.


_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Kathi51!)
Post #: 4
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/12/2013 1:47:02 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Yes everyone wants to win. Otherwise why play a game? Why keep score?

As to your observations of the player psychological profiles. As I read your post you have divided players into 2 groups.

1) Axis: "get rich or die trying", Allies: "live fast grow old", AKA "high risk, high reward play". Those Players are usually the ones with 20/20 hindsight "If only I had (fill in the blank)".

2) "The ice cold superior WIF thinker" (Kibitzers). Every one loves to give advice (some of it is good and some isn't).


To the first I say "Great! It's on the computer lets set up again". It gives me a chance to change things too. High risk, high reward play must be tempered with reason.

To the second I say "Thanks for your observations" or "Maybe next game we can swap sides and you can try it your way". A polite way to inform them I can make my own decisions.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 5
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/12/2013 5:32:29 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		It's what people say: if you can't get the automatic victory as the Axis, than comes the time for stiff defense and see if you survive in such a way that you still win in J/A 1945 by holding on as long as you can.

Personally, I like the way WiF gives every player a crack at attacking and defending. It doesn't matter which side you play. Therefore, an Axis player should always stick until the bitter end. How sweet it is, being the Axis, when at the last turn, it appears the Allies haven't reached there goals and have to give up, due to revolutions and workers unrest at home (the stab in the back, as happened with Germany in WW I).

< Message edited by Centuur -- 12/12/2013 6:33:35 PM >

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 6
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/12/2013 6:47:25 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

It's more fun to be on the offensive and axis players who try some high risk strategy and then quit when it fails, we find are loath for us to have included again in our gaming circle.




Fiddlesticks. Fighting grimly for each hex and impulse is the most exciting thing in all of WiF, and it's why Japan is probably my favorite power, trying to hold back that invincible green titan for as long as possible, you're never more alive.


Why Fiddlesticks?

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 7
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/12/2013 8:00:52 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		Because defending is more fun than attacking

Sorry, I guess the joke doesn't go well over a text interface: I'm well aware that most people prefer to be in the attacker's seat, but I've always found offense a bit more intuitive and therefore duller than defense. I at least often have to stretch myself harder to parry or delay than I do to charge ahead.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 8
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/12/2013 9:42:52 PM   
Kathi51!

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 11/6/2013
Status: offline 		Canīt help but think of the old philosophers joke- " anything you can do, I can do meta ".

What about this - in my view - classic:

Mid 42 - SU survived but lost much more than it could rebuild/ front somewhere in the line of holding on to 1 to 2 of the following - leningrad, moscow, stalingrad, caucasus, archangelsk...

CW subdued - lotīs of convoys gone/ builds kinda suffered... - gibraltar stands but malta and suez ( oh woops so are palastine, irak and persia... ) are gone and well axis secured.

Probably Turkey will be aligned.

Axi fortress Europe is being built before your eyes. Axi builds high ..., units needed for containing SU - not so high.

Oh- the pacific...

Letīs make it standard fair- so historical mid 42.

APART FROM - it was a CW first and due to crap US entry, the US bit just happened last turn...

Thinking of this scenario as an intuition pump, why not turn the knobs:

How much worse should it be that one does just not feel up to the challenge and gives up?

Best regards







< Message edited by Kathi51! -- 12/12/2013 10:45:40 PM >

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 9
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/13/2013 12:20:39 AM   
WarHunter


Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kathi51!
Canīt help but think of the old philosophers joke- " anything you can do, I can do meta ".
What about this - in my view - classic:
Mid 42 - SU survived but lost much more than it could rebuild/ front somewhere in the line of holding on to 1 to 2 of the following - leningrad, moscow, stalingrad, caucasus, archangelsk...
CW subdued - lotīs of convoys gone/ builds kinda suffered... - gibraltar stands but malta and suez ( oh woops so are palastine, irak and persia... ) are gone and well axis secured.
Probably Turkey will be aligned.
Axi fortress Europe is being built before your eyes. Axi builds high ..., units needed for containing SU - not so high.
Oh- the pacific...
Letīs make it standard fair- so historical mid 42.
APART FROM - it was a CW first and due to crap US entry, the US bit just happened last turn...
Thinking of this scenario as an intuition pump, why not turn the knobs:
How much worse should it be that one does just not feel up to the challenge and gives up?
Best regards

I'll bite.

How much worse should it get? That is not easy to answer.

I'd say the axis want an Allied surrender about now. The axis dont have any surprises left. Its all brute force, high risk and gambles. Most likely trying to force a test of wills and hope Allied morale will break. Frankly, the axis don't look all that good for an AV. So they are going for the next best thing, Surrender.

They have played a very aggressive game and took what they want. They want it to end. Why?

America

A mid 1942 America entry is about as good as it gets for the axis with your scenario.

If I'm the American Player, it has to get a lot worse before i ask diplomats to go kowtowing.

As the Allies I'd go at least 2 years. The end of 44 would give a good indication if Berlin, Rome and Tokyo are in striking distance. That AV is a lot easier to get as the Allies if Chungking has not been taken.

No one can foretell if the USN will lose the naval war in the pacific. How much of an impact resource lending will have. How well the air war of Europa will turnout. If the Chinese can leverage some ground gains. And most important will the Soviet army be intact. The CW/US can make the axis react to moves they are not prepared for. Your scenario has the Soviets in pretty good shape if its the summer of 42. One key piece of information we dont have. How many factories do the Soviets build with at max?

It really comes down to how the axis react as initiative is slowly wrestled from them. America's entry is a phase line. It marks the time where the Axis must begin to think of defending what they have, and take only what they need to wear down the allied offensive.

OTOH

If the Soviet army is shattered in the summer of 42 and pushed to the Urals, The USN CV fleet decimated and sunk, CW air power struck from the skies, China collapses along with India, convoy lines swept away, America's land power crushed on the shores of some forgotten beach.

Well

GG congrats! When do we start another?



_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Kathi51!)
Post #: 10
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/13/2013 8:12:45 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Have seen Russia pushed back to the Urals in 1942 and taking Berlin in 1945 in three recent games.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 11
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/13/2013 1:21:27 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		I've only seen it happen once, but my lesson from that game, (given from dear old Dad) is that the state of the Red army is a lot more important than where the frontline is. Troops mean more than distance. You want that initial rush when the unit density is low to get to the factory line if you can, but after that? Body count. Dead russians will serve the Germans better than pushing far.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 12
RE: Road to victory - here " Global War " - 12/14/2013 8:27:35 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 2811
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline

I have played all the WiF games from Wif 1 all the way up to WiF Deluxe with expansions. For about 15 years we would start a multiplayer game in September until it completed (usually by March-June). Only one of them ended before 1945. The main reason for this is World in Flames is a multi-player game. Each country has a chanced to win, and only one can win. (or tie).



_____________________________

“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 13
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