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China always being overrun by Japan - 12/16/2013 5:14:35 AM

gautebirkeli

Posts: 41
Joined: 11/20/2013
From: Richardson, Texas
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I have had trouble getting China to survive against Japan on the new maps. Now I think I have figured it out. China needs to trade space for time even more aggressively than the USSR player would. In this game it has payed off.. (Global war solitaire - all options on except HQ movement). This is S/O 40. In the north the communists have been pushed back to Lan Chow. But they are strong there.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 12/16/2013 5:59:08 AM

Ur_Vile_WEdge

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Joined: 6/28/2005
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At least the screenie makes it look like the Chinese are doing great. You've practically got half the IJA enveloped. You don't even really need to attack them, just let them sit there out of supply and pent.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 12/16/2013 8:46:55 AM

Majorball68

Posts: 490
Joined: 11/22/2013
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Exactly why you defend fwd as much as possible behind rivers, in mountains and withdraw 1 hex at a time if japs try to seep thru. China is about draining resources from Japan that otherwise would be used to build ships and planes.

< Message edited by Majorball68 -- 1/8/2014 7:14:26 AM >

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 12/16/2013 5:18:54 PM

EUBanana

Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
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I have to say I see the reverse - Japan has constant supply problems, their army isn't big enough, reinforcements have to come in from far away and require naval moves to get them over the China Sea, their tactical bombers are awful, the weather in southern China is often bad, the terrain is terrible for the attacker, etc etc...

If there's no Nationalist attack weakness it's even worse. Though with heavy lend leased air support even the Nationalists can destroy a couple of units.

But then I am a noob and find attacking to be difficult.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 12/16/2013 11:45:08 PM

celebrindal

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Joined: 2/26/2005
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I haven't tried anything with the Chinese yet, but would have thought with twice as many hexes the japs woulda been hooped. It was almost impossible to have a decent line before but now with twice as much real estate...

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 12/17/2013 2:56:53 PM

Braig

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Joined: 12/17/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I have to say I see the reverse - Japan has constant supply problems, their army isn't big enough, reinforcements have to come in from far away and require naval moves to get them over the China Sea, their tactical bombers are awful, the weather in southern China is often bad, the terrain is terrible for the attacker, etc etc...

If there's no Nationalist attack weakness it's even worse. Though with heavy lend leased air support even the Nationalists can destroy a couple of units.

But then I am a noob and find attacking to be difficult.

I agree. As a long time player, playing with attack weakness, I'm finding the Chinese are not having much trouble at all with defending. Key to me are mountain hexes and making the Japanese fight for the rail lines that move through them, as well as proper city defense. No freebies!

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 1/8/2014 6:12:31 AM

Majorball68

Posts: 490
Joined: 11/22/2013
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Have been trying the last couple of games with the Japanese lining up against the Chicoms and I am finding that it very difficult to contain the Japanese. If you play with divisions and limited break downs its even harder. These allow the Japanese to do a lot of attacks at lower odds than normal as they can always take losses from divisions. Previously you had to be very careful what you attacked because it could cost you a Corps size unit. Also its a lot closer to Chungking from the north than all the mountains in the south. I am starting to think a more central deployment of the ChiNat as this gives them the chance to move quickly north to help the commies. I know the rail line at Changsha is important but its a long way away from the important ChiNat cities and you can quickly move to the central mountains should the Japs deploy in force there. If the Japs dont put 90% to the Chicoms then they will find it hard to break them open. If they hit the Nats hard then it gives the commies a chance to build up to strong. I dont think the Japs have any choice but to go after the commmies regardless of the Chinese setup. My recent game had 7 Axis impulses of clear weather in Sept/Oct 1939 and then a clear turn the first impulse of Nov/Dec turn. I can tell you that the Chinese were starting to look really sick!

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 1/8/2014 1:45:34 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Majorball68

Have been trying the last couple of games with the Japanese lining up against the Chicoms and I am finding that it very difficult to contain the Japanese. If you play with divisions and limited break downs its even harder. These allow the Japanese to do a lot of attacks at lower odds than normal as they can always take losses from divisions. Previously you had to be very careful what you attacked because it could cost you a Corps size unit. Also its a lot closer to Chungking from the north than all the mountains in the south. I am starting to think a more central deployment of the ChiNat as this gives them the chance to move quickly north to help the commies. I know the rail line at Changsha is important but its a long way away from the important ChiNat cities and you can quickly move to the central mountains should the Japs deploy in force there. If the Japs dont put 90% to the Chicoms then they will find it hard to break them open. If they hit the Nats hard then it gives the commies a chance to build up to strong. I dont think the Japs have any choice but to go after the commmies regardless of the Chinese setup. My recent game had 7 Axis impulses of clear weather in Sept/Oct 1939 and then a clear turn the first impulse of Nov/Dec turn. I can tell you that the Chinese were starting to look really sick!

And how were the French holding up in that game? Such a long good weather turn in SO 1939 means that Belgium and the Netherlands should have been crushed by the Germans. First impulse Poland, third impulse kills Poland, Denmark and the Netherlands, fifth impulse kills Belgium, Seventh impulse starts the attack on France (provided good weather and a good German setup, this is possible to do). Since you got even three impulses more in this game, Paris could be within German range to grab (I lost France in SO 1939 in such a turn. Sure, the Germans had all the luck in the world on the land attacks, end of turn and weather rolls, but it can be done...).

That's how things are in the first turn. If weather holds, the Axis can use this to hammer the allies into bad shape. Not only in Europe, but in China too. There isn't anything the Allies can do to prevent this from happening. As long as the Japanese and German armies stay organised, you are in a very bad situation.

China is also for me still a question mark. Personally, I think the solution is to make the Japanese overstretch themselves. This means that the Chinese have to make a long frontline at set up to make sure that if the Japanese are committing a large chunk of their forces in China to one of the two Chinese factions, the other one is in position to make life for the Japanese difficult by moving in such a way that Japanese units might be put OOS and Chinese cities behind the Japanese front might be reconquered by the Chinese.

Don't sit and wait for things to happen as the Chinese. You could do this in WiF, but you can't in MWIF.

< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/8/2014 2:48:20 PM >

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 1/8/2014 7:49:03 PM

Majorball68

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Joined: 11/22/2013
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Centuur, The French were looking very ordinary. I setup 4 corps at start and add in the reserve units I managed to get in behind the Maginot. The only problem I ran into was it was a very bad winter with lots of Blizzards, Storms and short turns so Paris was not able to be taken until Mar/Apr 1940. One unlucky attack with a roll of 4 in a +10 battle flipped nearly everything so that pretty much stopped the Germans in their tracks.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 1/8/2014 8:07:21 PM

peskpesk

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From: Stockholm, Sweden
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IMO is the best way to getting China to survive against Japan on the new maps the same as in the boardgame. The USSR must rattle the saber against Japan and be ready to go to war if it does not help with threats. This keeps the preasure of China, even with no war are many Japnesse forces tied down in Manchuria.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 1/8/2014 8:14:13 PM

Majorball68

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Joined: 11/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

IMO is the best way to getting China to survive against Japan on the new maps the same as in the boardgame. The USSR must rattle the saber against Japan and be ready to go to war if it does not help with threats. This keeps the preasure of China, even with no war are many Japnesse forces tied down in Manchuria.

Well I play house rules in my solitaire games. The Russians cant DOW Japan and vica versa until 1945. However the Jap starting forces in Manchuria must stay there until start of 1940 and the Russian Siberian units including Zhukov must stay on the border of Manchuria until start of 1940. Its my way of compensating for the non-aggression pacts which has not been fully deployed to the game yet. Makes it a little easier on China and slows the Russians in taking Persia in 1939. Seems to balance up the game for me a little.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 1/8/2014 10:01:17 PM

brian brian

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No, the best way for the Chinese to survive is for them to pick the Blitz table in combat when the Japanese attack, and generally retreat and pause only in good terrain. Most gamers are too proud to do that.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 1/8/2014 10:05:48 PM

Majorball68

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Joined: 11/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

No, the best way for the Chinese to survive is for them to pick the Blitz table in combat when the Japanese attack, and generally retreat and pause only in good terrain. Most gamers are too proud to do that.

I concur with the Blitz CRT. It helps preserve some units but if the Japs get some hi rolls in combat it wont matter what table your using.

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RE: China always being overrun by Japan - 7/6/2014 2:07:37 AM

Larry Smith

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Joined: 4/14/2001
From: Williams Lake, BC, Canada
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I find that as long as the Japanese can kill off at least two Nationalist units a turn, they can wear down the Nationalists. And the more Nationalist units dropping into the force pool, the less likely the ChiComs are to be reinforced. And for them to be able to move out without jeopardizing their own stronghold, they need to double their force. That, or a Japanese opponent who gambled and lost, or underestimated their threat.
But I agree with the Nationalists needing to defend back, using the terrain, and to just forget about the territory east of Changsha. It's good defensive terrain, but if the Japanese break through coming north from Canton, anyone in that area will likely be isolated. The Chinese can't move all that fast.
And forget setting up the Nationalists right up against Canton - especially the coastal hexes. That just invites a naval sortie, and shore bombardment support.

As the Japanese, don't conquer China before the US is in the war, as that draws at least two to three chits. Worse still is if Japan has no other opponents, they'll become a neutral, and be restricted to combined moves. Try bringing your army down from Chungking and Lanchow, three units at a time.

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Post #: 14