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Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility

 
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Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 9:16:23 AM   
berto


Posts: 20708
Joined: 3/13/2002
From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline
Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility


From the Vietnam War, the Battle of Ia Drang (depicted in the film We Were Soldiers):

quote:

The Battle of Ia Drang was the first major battle between regulars of the United States Army and regulars of the People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN/NVA) of North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. The two-part battle took place between November 14 and November 18, 1965, at two landing zones (LZs) northwest of Plei Me in the Central Highlands of South Vietnam (approximately 35 miles south-west of Pleiku) as part of the U.S. airmobile offensive codenamed Operation Silver Bayonet...

Representing the American forces were elements of the 3rd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division: the 1st Battalion and 2nd Battalion of the 7th Cavalry Regiment, and the 2nd Battalion, 5th Cavalry Regiment of the United States Army, facing elements of the B3 Front of the PAVN (including the 304 Division) and Viet Cong. The battle involved close air support by U.S. aircraft and a strategic bombing strike by the B-52s. The initial Vietnamese assault against the landing 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry at LZ X-Ray was repulsed after two days and nights of heavy fighting on November 14-16. However, the follow-up surprise attack on November 17 that overran the marching column of 7th Cavalry 2nd Battalion near the LZ Albany was the deadliest ambush of a U.S. unit during the course of the entire war. About half of some 300 American deaths in the 35-day Operation Silver Bayonet happened in just this one fight that lasted 16 hours.

Just one of many, many multi-day/night battles that the Campaign Series was unable to model ... until now!

We have implemented a new feature, Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility:



In the screenshot, you will observe (from Crossroads' forthcoming new East Front scenario of the Winter War, Arctic Front: On Familiar Ground):

  • Turns (circled in red): 1-6[n] 7-30[d]
  • Visibility (circled in blue): 1-2[2] 3-3[3] 4-4[4] 5-5[5] 6-6[6] 7-30[7]

    That is to say:

  • For game turns 1 through 6, it is night. Beginning with game turn 7, and extending through the remainder of the game until turn 30, it is day.
  • For game turns 1 & 2, visibility is 2. For game turn 3, visibility is 3. As dawn progresses, Visibility gradually increases to 4 ... 5 ... 6 ... until it maxes out at 7, the daytime Visibility for game turns 7 through 30.

    For the first time ever in the Campaign Series (without having to resort to kludges, as in players hand editing the save game files), scenario designers will be able to specify day/night cycles to simulate:

  • Dawn battles.
  • Dusk battles.
  • Day/night/day battles.
  • Night/day/night battles.
  • Multi-day/night battles lasting for as long as the historical situation requires.

    The scenario designer will have complete freedom to expand and compress turn times and day/night durations as he sees fit. No more enslavement to the "turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time" "rule". (Which, in the traditional game, if you think about it, has never really applied, is "more honored in the breach than the observance.") Turn real-time equivalents are entirely subject to the scenario designer's interpretation, and can differ from one scenario to the another, from day to night, even from day to day.

    As Crossroads stated it:

    quote:

    I particularly like this as it allows short days or nights when history tells us not much action took place.

    In conjunction with Dynamic Day/Night, the scenario designer may now also exactly specify Dynamic Visibility, to simulate:

  • Day to dusk to night diminishing visibility.
  • Night to dawn to day increasing visibility.
  • Changing lighting, as in sunny skies giving way to overcast skies; or, in night scenarios, the rising or setting of the moon.
  • Changing weather, as in fog, rain, snow, dust storms, etc.

    When specifying Turns and Visibility, they must be one or a sequence of

    #-#[d] or #-#[n]

    for day/night, and

    #-#[#]

    for visibility.

    No spaces! except those separating one turn segment from the next.

    You might see Visibility segments like (as in the example above)

    3-3[3]

    meaning from turn 3 to turn 3, Visibility is 3. I considered simplifying that to

    3[3]

    but I chose not to, because it complicates the coding. I could have over engineered this, permitting all sorts of fancy variations, and allowing for all sorts of input errors. But: the fancier we get, the harder it is to code, and the greater the chance for bugs. It's usually better to KISS it, unless very good reason not to. Also, specifying day/turn & visibility in scenario design is not something that the great mass of ordinary players will do; only a small, select group of scenario designers will do it. If they can handle scenario design, they can surely handle the "complexities" of the Header Dialog.

    Here is the older-style scenario editor Header Dialog:



    Comparing with the newer-style Header Dialog above, you will observe some layout changes:

  • No more Night Scenario box, as you specify day or night (and the number of turns for each) in the expanded Turns box (formerly the Length box).
  • Flares, formerly known as "Starshells", have been moved up to the Air/Ammo/Smoke boxes. "Flares" is a more generic (and shorter!) term to represent all manner of airborne illuminations.

    Some important points:

  • CS 1.04 & before will not be forward compatible with new-style scenarios created in the 1.05 & later scenario editors. You will have to update your game installation to play newer scenarios.
  • 1.05 & later EXEs will still maintain backward compatibility with 1.04 scenarios and before. So both updated and older game installs will still be able to play older scenarios.

    Over the years, computer power has increased exponentially, and capability to simulate ever larger historical battles is possible. Division, corps, and even army level scenarios have been developed to fulfill the promise built into the very first East Front II Organization Editor. Bigger OOBs, larger maps, longer battles. Building on capabilities always inherent in the Campaign Series design, and soon also with Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility (and other new features still to come), imagine the possibilities!

    Until the next time...

    _____________________________

    Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com/
    Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515
    Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles, Civil War Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com
    		•
    Post #: 1
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 10:45:54 AM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
    Joined: 3/13/2002
    From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    No more enslavement to the "turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time" "rule". (Which, in the traditional game, if you think about it, has never really applied, is "more honored in the breach than the observance.")

    Lest anybody think that the traditional game slavishly adheres to the "turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time" "rule":

    Here is a rather complicated Linux(Cygwin) command* to determine the longest East Front scenarios, in hours:


    $ for f in `ls -1 *.scn | egrep -v ' '`; do head -n 3 $f | tail -n 1 | egrep -v '\['; done | awk '{print ($4/6)/10}' | sort -n | tail -n 20
    2.5
    2.5
    2.5
    2.6
    2.6
    2.7
    2.8
    2.9
    2.9
    2.9
    3
    3
    3.2
    3.5
    3.5
    3.8
    4
    4
    4.5
    5


    That is, even the longest East Front scenarios are, supposedly, no more than 4-5 hours in duration. Does anybody think that all of the depicted battles really lasted, from start to finish, just 5 hours or less?

    For West Front:


    $ for f in `ls -1 *.scn | egrep -v ' '`; do head -n 3 $f | tail -n 1 | egrep -v '\['; done | awk '{print ($4/6)/10}' | sort -n | tail -n 20
    3
    3
    3
    3
    3
    3.5
    3.6
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    5
    5
    5.5
    6


    In West Front, the longest battles are, supposedly, just 5-6 hours.

    In Rising Sun:


    $ for f in `ls -1 *.scn | egrep -v ' '`; do head -n 3 $f | tail -n 1 | egrep -v '\['; done | awk '{print ($4/6)/10}' | sort -n | tail -n 20
    2.5
    2.5
    2.5
    2.5
    2.6
    2.6
    2.6
    2.6
    2.8
    3
    3
    3
    3.4
    3.8
    4
    4.4
    4.5
    5
    6
    6


    All depicted battles max out at 6 hours or less?

    Obviously, in the Campaign Series, time is an elastic concept, and "turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time" is not the Gospel Truth. No, not at all.

    [* For ease of computation, I have excluded scenario names with embedded spaces. Gives Linux(Cygwin) the fits! It matters little for this analysis. All, or nearly all, Campaign Series battles finish in 6 hours of simulated real time or less. Or so you might be led to believe.]

    < Message edited by berto -- 12/18/2013 12:54:19 PM >

    _____________________________

    Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com/
    Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515
    Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles, Civil War Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com

    (in reply to berto)
    Post #: 2
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 12:53:10 PM   
    MrRoadrunner


    Posts: 1323
    Joined: 10/7/2005
    Status: offline     		Could care less if you do not "feel" that six minutes was set for the turn.
    The entire game's scale is based upon it. From movement to gun ranges.

    And, yes I still agree that some of the bigger scenarios are also the longest in time. Some custom designers put so many turns in that they could not compensate for night and day either.

    Stick to the scale. It will guide you.
    Change it and it will blow the game apart.

    RR

    _____________________________

    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    (in reply to berto)
    Post #: 3
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 2:23:12 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
    Joined: 7/5/2009
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto


    Just one of many, many multi-day/night battles that the Campaign Series was unable to model ... until now!

    We have implemented a new feature, Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility:


    This is no doubt quite an exciting new feature, enabling scenario designers to more accurately represent certain events that do not fall into the basic category the Scenario Editor has so far supported.

    The scenario I have struggled with time and time again has been the modeling of the Kuuterselkä breakthrough during RKKA's Summer 1944 Offensive at Karelian Isthmus. The events were a hodgepodge of attacks and counterattacks, confusion, and general mayhem:

    quote:


    The Kuuterselkä battle begun at 0800 hrs on 14 June 1944, after a two hour artillery barrage. The two pincers RKKA put on managed to break through a weak sector of the Finnish main defense line during the first hour of combat, but particularly with western pincer a series of local and limited counter attacks delayed the Red Army for the morning hours, as the battle see-sawed there. As the Eastern pincer gained momentum however, the defenders retreated in the western sector as well. By 1200 hrs, the whole sector of the defensive line was firmly on the hands of RKKA.

    What followed then was according to RKKA doctrine of the time an advance to their immediate target objectives, where they dug in to weather the counter-offensive that they knew was to come. Only a major counter-attack never took place, as the RKKA 109th AC had indeed managed to decept the IVth Finnish AC who were expecting the major push further in the West, by the major Viborg highway, an area that was a proper tank country, Kuuterselkä being rather a desolated, marshy forest.

    RKKA western pincer, showing independent thinking, or perhaps advancing to their next target sector, proceeded to roll to Northwest, while the Eastern pincer again advanced a bit and again dug into a hedgehog formation to resist the counter attack they were still expecting to happen at any time. Still, nothing happened, as Finns were feverishly allocating reserves to the sector where there were none.

    After a relatively quiet evening, the Finnish counterattack suddenly exploded on them at 2245hrs, with support from strong artillery, and with airforce bombing the area, particularly heavily at 2350 hrs.

    To regain the initiative, RKKA launched a local counter attack of their own, at 0045 hrs, and the confusing battle went on and off during the white nights of June. By 1000 hrs on June 15, Finns realised it was a lost cause, and manage to disengage by 1200 hrs.


    My scenario research at AHF.

    ( Hmmm... I realise the original unit war diaries were not digitalised and published into Internet then yet. I need to download a few of them, still some unanswered questions remaining... )

    All in all, that is some 28 hrs to model on a scenario, with a day - night - day sequence to portray. Also, the white nights of Nordics were a no-go earlier.

    No longer:




    Turns: 1-12[d] 13-22[n] 23-30[d]
    Visibility: 1-12[8] 13-13[7] 14-14[6] 15-15[5] 16-16[4] 17-18[3] 19-19[4] 20-20[5] 21-21[6] 22-22[7] 23-30[8]

    ... although I think I will throw in some five turns more for this scenario, with emphasis on the darkest part of the night...


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    In the screenshot, you will observe (from Crossroads' forthcoming new East Front scenario of the Winter War, Arctic Front: On Familiar Ground):

  • Turns (circled in red): 1-6[n] 7-30[d]
  • Visibility (circled in blue): 1-2[2] 3-3[3] 4-4[4] 5-5[5] 6-6[6] 7-30[7]



    • Actually, that is not the 1st battle for Vuosalmi of Winter War, Feb-March 1940, but the 2nd one of August 1941. Yes, there is a 3rd Battle for Vuosalmi as well

    The Finnish 5th division managed to pull off a quite daredevil regiment strong night crossing of river Vuoksi, catching the RKKA forces of the sector totally off guard, as they were expecting the major push some 10 kms more to the east, at Vuosalmi itself.

    Previously, this would have been a dawn attack, with day appearing as dice will roll as of turn 6, while the lights would be swithched ON, into a full day light.

    Instead, I can model the night phase to last exactly as long as I wish, and then introduce the gradual dawn in a manner of Variable Visible Done Right.

    I have another 1941 scenario in the making, a more classic Dawn attack this time. Again it is appreciated I can control the day-night change and the visibility just as I wish to!


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    • For the first time ever in the Campaign Series (without having to resort to kludges, as in players hand editing the save game files), scenario designers will be able to specify day/night cycles to simulate:
    • Dawn battles.
    • Dusk battles.
    • Day/night/day battles.
    • Night/day/night battles.
    • Multi-day/night battles lasting for as long as the historical situation requires.


    This should be exciting, there's already some really impressive large scenarios out there, where it was required to manually manipulate the scenario file to control the day-night change. No more of that, hopefully!


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

    Could care less if you do not "feel" that six minutes was set for the turn.
    The entire game's scale is based upon it. From movement to gun ranges.


    Yes, the units are modeled with the classic six minutes - 250 meters - platoon level units metrics. What has often caused confusion is to conclude that according to this, a certain amount of game turns would always equal a multiply of six minute turns: 30 turns = 180 minutes = 3 hours.

    However, there is no strict correlation there, it all depends of the battle to be portrayed. In the Kuuterselkä example, I've succesfully modeled (as in being able to achieve the historic objectives) a 28 hour battle in 30 turns, although it could perhaps use another 5 turns in it.

    There is no easy way out to figure out what the proper correlation would be. Instead, lots of hard work, trying out different variations, and then testing and more testing!

    At least that's what I've observed so far.




    Attachment (1)

    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 12/18/2013 5:39:50 PM >

    _____________________________

    Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
    ---
    CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
    CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

    (in reply to MrRoadrunner)
    Post #: 4
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 4:57:35 PM   
    Hoplite1963

     

    Posts: 254
    Joined: 7/27/2008
    Status: offline     		This is really interesting. Is there any limit to the number of consecutive day /night changes that could be set up for a given scenario ? For example in theory would it be possible to do a monster scenario covering the whole of the battle of Dien Bien Phu drawing on the likes of GDW's "Citadel" board game for the OOB's and reinforcement schedules etc?

    Many thanks
    Ian

    (in reply to Crossroads)
    Post #: 5
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 5:12:47 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
    Joined: 7/5/2009
    Status: offline     		Ian, there should be no limitations as such.

    (Unless the text box in the header has some string limits. Good question, I will run a test to see if there is. )

    Otherwise, sky's the limit

    EDIT: Yup, you are good to go:

    1-10[d] 11-20[n] 21-30[d] ... 781-790[d] 791-800[n]

    That's 40 days and 40 nights for you, at least. Did not test any longer text strings. How may days were you thinking of, this good enough?




    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 12/18/2013 7:37:23 PM >

    _____________________________

    Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
    ---
    CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
    CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

    (in reply to Hoplite1963)
    Post #: 6
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 7:18:57 PM   
    wings7


    Posts: 4591
    Joined: 8/11/2003
    From: Phoenix, Arizona
    Status: offline     		Wow!

    (in reply to Crossroads)
    Post #: 7
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/18/2013 8:19:33 PM   
    MrRoadrunner


    Posts: 1323
    Joined: 10/7/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

    Could care less if you do not "feel" that six minutes was set for the turn.
    The entire game's scale is based upon it. From movement to gun ranges.


    Yes, the units are modeled with the classic six minutes - 250 meters - platoon level units metrics. What has often caused confusion is to conclude that according to this, a certain amount of game turns would always equal a multiply of six minute turns: 30 turns = 180 minutes = 3 hours.

    However, there is no strict correlation there, it all depends of the battle to be portrayed. In the Kuuterselkä example, I've succesfully modeled (as in being able to achieve the historic objectives) a 28 hour battle in 30 turns, although it could perhaps use another 5 turns in it.

    There is no easy way out to figure out what the proper correlation would be. Instead, lots of hard work, trying out different variations, and then testing and more testing!

    At least that's what I've observed so far.


    If you were to stay in the scale of the game you would, or could, have designed shorter turn length scenarios as a "series".

    To me, stating that 28 hours equals 30 turns is farcical at best. It also displays a lack of understanding what scale means.
    This kind of thought has been growing for a while. Each month someone validates the idea off the wrong thinking of someone months before.

    The earth rotates, establishing night and day. You cannot slow down the rotation to make time slow down. Time will move on the same. The definition of a day will change. That's for sure.

    Nor, can you just say that six minutes and 250 meters do not mean what they are.
    Six minutes and 250 meters determine how far a gun can shoot and how far a unit can move. You can think that you are creating a one hour per turn scenario but you are not.

    The battle of San Jacinto, which was the end of the Texas Revolution, and facilitated the creation of the "country of Texas", through the capture of Santa Ana and his subsequent signing of their independence to gain his freedom, took three CS turns. I would not want to simulate the battle by using CS game scale. Not many players want a three turn game?

    Some events cannot be simulated using the same scale. It is probably why there is Squad Battles, CS, and OpC series games that cover different scales?

    And, there are "devotees of the games" who want to design CS level sized scenarios in SB and those who want to make OpC sized battles in CS scale.

    I've heard this argument and the faulty reasoning behind it ... for years. Sadly, some of it has become embedded in CS by hasty actions that were not well thought out.
    Not saying that you are doing anything hasty, or not well thought out. I just think that you should not change the game's scale to create something that should not be within the scale of the game.

    Believe me. If someone wants to create D-Day June 44 in the scale of the game I say go for it. It matters not how many units are on how large a map. Just do not tell me to play a forty or four hundred turn game that recreates the entire day or more. (Yes, night and day would help, but what's the point?)

    Just sayin'!

    RR




    _____________________________

    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    (in reply to Crossroads)
    Post #: 8
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/19/2013 12:38:59 AM   
    Otto von Blotto


    Posts: 273
    Joined: 7/18/2008
    Status: offline     		Time, space, distance, etc, are all scale and are all related to one another. Mess with one you mess with all at your peril.

    Edit This is not in reply to RR but the topic in general as I agree with him on this.

    I'm quite happy for the coherent movement of visibility hexs due to battlefield conditions, (as long as it is changed on even turns) opposed to what we have now with VV but the random disregarding of scale that the game was built for is just daft, as far as I am concerned. I would much rather see a series of battles covering a large time scale, than a single large game that is totally out of scale and trying to do things the game wasn't designed for.

    If someone wants to create a 480 turn game to cover a 2 day battle then crack on I have no problem with it as long as the distance scale of 250m per hex is adhered to, but I seriously doubt I would have the time to play it but someone would so why not.



    < Message edited by Otto von Blotto -- 12/19/2013 2:14:54 AM >

    _____________________________

    "Personal isn't the same as important"

    (in reply to MrRoadrunner)
    Post #: 9
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/19/2013 5:49:07 AM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
    Joined: 7/5/2009
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Otto von Blotto

    Time, space, distance, etc, are all scale and are all related to one another. Mess with one you mess with all at your peril.


    Your post made me thinking. Happens rarely I know! Let us try to break scale into its components. I honestly feel the scale of the game is solid, it would be next to impossible to break it. But is it so?

    What are the components that create scale?

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

    If you were to stay in the scale of the game you would, or could, have designed shorter turn length scenarios as a "series".

    To me, stating that 28 hours equals 30 turns is farcical at best. It also displays a lack of understanding what scale means.
    This kind of thought has been growing for a while. Each month someone validates the idea off the wrong thinking of someone months before.

    The earth rotates, establishing night and day. You cannot slow down the rotation to make time slow down. Time will move on the same. The definition of a day will change. That's for sure.


    "28 hours equals 30 turns", ie. Battle Duration

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner
    Nor, can you just say that six minutes and 250 meters do not mean what they are.
    Six minutes and 250 meters determine how far a gun can shoot and how far a unit can move. You can think that you are creating a one hour per turn scenario but you are not.


    ie. Basic scale. Map, and units.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner
    The battle of San Jacinto, which was the end of the Texas Revolution, and facilitated the creation of the "country of Texas", through the capture of Santa Ana and his subsequent signing of their independence to gain his freedom, took three CS turns. I would not want to simulate the battle by using CS game scale. Not many players want a three turn game?

    Some events cannot be simulated using the same scale. It is probably why there is Squad Battles, CS, and OpC series games that cover different scales?


    ie. Scenario Design

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

    And, there are "devotees of the games" who want to design CS level sized scenarios in SB and those who want to make OpC sized battles in CS scale.


    ie. Scenario Size

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

    I've heard this argument and the faulty reasoning behind it ... for years. Sadly, some of it has become embedded in CS by hasty actions that were not well thought out.
    Not saying that you are doing anything hasty, or not well thought out. I just think that you should not change the game's scale to create something that should not be within the scale of the game.

    Believe me. If someone wants to create D-Day June 44 in the scale of the game I say go for it. It matters not how many units are on how large a map. Just do not tell me to play a forty or four hundred turn game that recreates the entire day or more. (Yes, night and day would help, but what's the point?)


    ie. Conclusions

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MrRoadrunner

    Just sayin'!


    Certainly Ed. And I am just posting my observations :)

    So let us proceed:

    Basic scale. Map, and units.

    quote:

    Each scenario is played on a unique map with five "view modes." Most scenario maps are based on historically-accurate 1940-era 1:50,000 scale maps actually used by Axis and Allied commanders during the war. Combat is performed on a "hex grid" map that has defined wargaming for over three decades. Each "hex" represents 250 meters; with 4 hexes to a kilometer or 6 hexes to a mile. Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time.


    Now we all know this. This is the classic scale of the game, the same my beloved Panzeblitz and Panzer Leader board games used for an example. It is really difficult to break things within these parameters, the proof of this is all the hundreds and hundreds of scenarios that are out there, that all feel "right" in themselves.

    For a scenario designer to be out of scale, the option to do so is to design maps that are of wrong scale. One hex is 125 meters? One hex is 1 kilometer? But that is not an issue, no one is doing that.

    Units are modeled per their capabilities within a turn, nothing a scenario designer can do there to make things wrong. Given their chance, the units will only do what they are capable of. From the beginning there has been abstractions for actions that would take longer than one turn, like creating an Improved Position. A dice roll is introduced to make the action take a longer time then.

    All in all, we are in good hands here.

    Scenario Size

    In the beginning the scenarios represented Bn and Regt sized battles. The computers of the time could perhaps not handle larger scenarios, the displays were small. Over time your typical home PC has become a super computer as far as JTCS is considered, and we have plenty of Division and Army Corps sized scenarios nowadays. They make great team games, and are very popular.

    So no issues here.

    Scenario Design

    What battles to represent, then? I used Kuuterselkä as an example, a very decisive battle that at the time meant RKKA was able to break through the main defence line on a run. It is a rather large scenario, with elements of an Army Corps on one side and elements making up a Division on the other side. Everything said, given the amount of playtesting and suggestion I have received from a great number of experienced players, it has turned into a rather interesting scenario, that allows you to see if you can make it better than what was the historical result there.

    Is it out of scale given the components we have discussed so far? Absolutely not.

    However...

    "28 hours equals 30 turns", ie. Battle Duration

    I guess this is the main observation I have made over the time. The arguments have often been semantic rather than what we see with the scenarios. With Kuuterselkä, my observation was that recreating the battle that had many quiet phases takes about 30 - 35 turns. How is that?

    The units, modeled within the scale, never tire. They keep doing what they do, from one turn to the next. Given this is a computer game, all the platoons know the overall situation perfectly, and they add to the overall situation exaclty as wished for. This needs to be taken into account, and that was the observation I tried to point out with my previous post.

    Let us use another example. Let us say you want to recreate a scenario where Easy Company performed a heroic foot march to relieve St Lo, over a distance of 90 kms.

    You draw the map with the right scale, where the distance from point A to point B (St Lo) is 360 hexes. with a paved road. Rather a long map, but certainly doable. Then you calculate the unit capabilites. A Parachute Infantry Platoon can cover 4 hexes of paved road in a normal manner, and 5 hexes with double speed. Given the Easy Company historically marched 30 kms per day, you need to allow for three days of action. One click per turn, one day would be 30 turns. Then, you would expect three days of action is represented by 90 turns, in this case. You set your victory hexes accordingly, so that the Major Loss - Major Win targets can be set to reflect whether the unit made it to St Lo or not.

    This is the nature of the game. This would be the correct design for that particular battle. The units never tire. Allowing 720 turns for three days would be just plain silly.
    And this is what I meant that semantics are the confusion here. My Easy Company Scenario does not equal that 24hrs/30 turns = one turn is 0.8hrs. It just means that to correctly simulate the battle, recreating one day of battle would require 30 active turns for the units in the map to do their stuff.

    Here is the confusion.

    Conclusion

    The scale never breaks down. It is what it is. A scenario designer can do next to nothing to break it.





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    Post #: 10
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/19/2013 8:57:17 AM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
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    Status: offline     		Hmm. Gave this some more thought. I will try to conclude again.

    First, let us try to define scale. In my first attempt, scale consists of

    1) Scale Basis. 250m / six minutes / platoons

    2) Scenario Size. Bn, Regt, Bde, Div, Corps size and so forth.

    3) Scenario Design, or, Scenario Basis. How to select the battle, or part(s) of one, to model in a scenario. Can a battle be just one scenario, or is it rather a series of scenarios. What are the victory levels, how are they put into game. Etc.

    4) Battle Duration. How many turns should a battle consist of to model the historical elements and to give some time buffer and alternative tactical options to player.

    Am I missing anything here?

    Then, let us see where the difference in views lies within.

    Scale Basis? I think we all agree what the Scale Basis for JTCS is.

    Scenario Size? There are preferences. Some prefer larger battles, some smaller ones. But there are no issues as such with scenario size, right?

    Scenario Design? Would be a bit off topic, apart from the fact that the designer must adhere to scale. See what I did there? With a good intention, I might add!

    Huib, who has over 50 scenario designs under his belt, put a series of scenario design documents together years ago. You can view them HERE. Mandatory reading for any scenario designer, points raised there should be at least considered.

    Interestingly, none of the documentation touches the last item on the list, of Battle Duration.

    I think Battle Duration truly is the core of the issue we are discussing here.

    Consider this:

    Q1: How many JTCS turns would be needed to represent a battle that lasted for 24 hrs?
    (a) 240 turns
    (b) It depends, and you need to find out.

    Then, consider this:

    quote:


    A infantry unit can cover one kilometer of paved road on foot per turn. Tirelessly, from one turn to next. In 10 turns, they cover 10 kilometers, in 20 turns they cover 20 kilometers, and in 50 turns they cover 50 kilometers. In 240 turns, they would cover 240 kilometers, on foot.


    Thus, should 240 turns always equal 24 hrs of real time, we conclude infantry easily marches 240 kms a day. More, when using double speed every other turn.

    Realising this,

    Q2: Is there something intermittently wrong with JTCS engine as such?
    Q3: Or, is the Foot Infantry Platoon put together with wrong data values?
    Q4: Or, is this rather just something that a Scenario Designer would need to take into account when designing a scenario?
    Q5: If so, how? What would be your advice?

    Here's my quick answers:

    A1: You need to find out.
    A2: No.
    A3: No.
    A4: Yes.
    A5: Study the battle. Draw a plan. Experiment, playtest. Observe, ask for observations, then take them into your design. Playtest. Rinse and repeat.

    Looking forward for hearing everyones thoughts on the issue



    Edit: typos.

    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 12/19/2013 10:07:29 AM >

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    Post #: 11
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/19/2013 7:16:31 PM   
    Hoplite1963

     

    Posts: 254
    Joined: 7/27/2008
    Status: offline     		To do the whole of Dien Vien Phu we would need to be able to run to 57 days and nights. Its worth noting for scenario design purposes that included in the HPS Squad Battles Dien Bien Phu game is a map of the entire valley at a 40 meters to the hex scale. There is also a similar map for Na Sam. I also see from elsewhere in the Matrix form that "On Target Simulaitons" are going to use the same 250 metres to the hex scale as the "Modern Wars" series for their next game which will also cover the Vietnam War.

    Looks like 2104 will be a good year tor re read "The Last Valley".

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    Post #: 12
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 7:50:13 AM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
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    Status: offline     		Go for it Ian!

    The map should not be an issue with 250m hex scale. The length of the scenario, reinforcements, all that? Now the engine can handle it, if the scenario designer only has the persistence to model it all

    Then, how to test such a monster? With the new automated test feature perhaps: Coder Diary #11

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    Post #: 13
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 9:55:32 AM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads

    Then, how to test such a monster? With the new automated test feature perhaps: Coder Diary #11

    Hey, I hadn't thought of that!

    Indeed, the ability to have the A/I auto-play a scenario from beginning to end will be a great help to scenario designers.

    Of course, the game play will be somewhat wacko, it being the A/I directing both side's play after all. Still, it will reveal things, like: will each side kill off the other half-way through the allotted time? Will one side or the other typically, without exception win victory by turn 50 of a designated 150 turn scenario? Or conversely, will A/I auto play reveal that a scenario's turn count is way too short? And so on.

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    Post #: 14
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 11:39:22 AM   
    kool_kat


    Posts: 558
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    Obviously, in the Campaign Series, time is an elastic concept, and "turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time" is not the Gospel Truth. No, not at all.


    Gents:

    "Each hex represents 250 meters; with four hexes to a kilometer or 6.5 hexes to a mile. Turns are the equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time." - p. 2 (East Front II user manual)

    All of the Talonsoft / JTCS games (EF2, WF, RS) were developed using this scale. Units' movement and combat ranges were based on this scale. Terrain features were based on this scale.

    Now, when a developer makes a statement that "time is elastic" - what happens to scale?

    Example: I decide, that instead of turns being approximately 6 minutes, I want to make each turn = 24 hours. Great! I make that declaration and develop a 15 turn scenario. Now I have a 15 day scenario... but there is a "slight" problem. The units still have the same movement allowance and range as when the scale = 6 minutes of real time. Should not the units' movement range be greatly increased in a scenario that features "elastic" time and each turn = 24 hours? Obviously, units should be able to move farther in a 24 hour period than in a 6 minute period. Unless, in addition to when the elastic time declaration is made, the hex scale (250 meters) is changed too? Gets kind of "messy" when you throw out scale - does it not?

    Finally, the rational given to introduce elastic time because ALL JTCS stock and custom scenarios do not adhere to a strict "6 minutes of real time," is simply wrong. I can rationalize a scenario depicting a "portion" of a longer battle much better than making an arbitrary declaration that in "scenario ABC time = 24 hours per turn", but in "scenario DEF time = 6 minutes per turn."

    One other note: another company associated with Matrix is developing a WW2 Pacific game. They recently revealed screen shots that showed individual capital ships firing at targets, land units, and terrain with a projected release date in 1H2014. I asked on their forum, what was the game scale. One of the developers replied that they have not decided on a game scale yet!!!!! How does a game company get to that stage in the development of a game and NOT have made a decision on scale? Should that not be one of the first considerations in the concept?

    Please, please, please. Just because you can try to force fit elastic time into a scenario design, does not make it right for the depicted scale.

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    Post #: 15
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 12:36:53 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
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    Status: offline     		Cheers Mike

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mwest
    Example: I decide, that instead of turns being approximately 6 minutes, I want to make each turn = 24 hours. Great! I make that declaration and develop a 15 turn scenario. Now I have a 15 day scenario...




    Guns do not kill people. People do.

    But I am sure you would not attempt such a scenario.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mwest
    Please, please, please. Just because you can try to force fit elastic time into a scenario design, does not make it right for the depicted scale.


    I don't think there is anything in the new code that changes the scale at all. If there is, I am sure Berto will reply. The scale is what it is, and what it has been since the beginning.

    Out of the things that make scale, two stand out as the usual suspects:

    First, New Units. Does the new unit fit the Scale Basis? Lots of examples of discussions of this, where no punches are saved. But that is not what you are worrying here are you.

    Then, Battle Duration. Semantics, mostly. This what you meant? The Scale Basis is what it ever has been. The units perform their stuff every turn just as they are designed, as they ever did.

    As a scenario designer yourself, wanna help out the new ones and answer my Five Questions?


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    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 12:39:39 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
    Joined: 7/5/2009
    Status: offline     		On another note, related to OP, I started a new DAR with 1.05beta, to showcase the new dynamic day / night visibility. Scenario introduction done, the battle itself won't start until after Xmas though.


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    Post #: 17
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 12:42:48 PM   
    Jason Petho


    Posts: 15009
    Joined: 6/22/2004
    From: Terrace, BC, Canada
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: mwest

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    Obviously, in the Campaign Series, time is an elastic concept, and "turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time" is not the Gospel Truth. No, not at all.


    Gents:

    "Each hex represents 250 meters; with four hexes to a kilometer or 6.5 hexes to a mile. Turns are the equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time." - p. 2 (East Front II user manual)

    All of the Talonsoft / JTCS games (EF2, WF, RS) were developed using this scale. Units' movement and combat ranges were based on this scale. Terrain features were based on this scale.

    Now, when a developer makes a statement that "time is elastic" - what happens to scale?



    Yes, all scenarios were developed using the scale for the map, but even Talonsoft used an elastic time scale, where even their scenarios use approximately as an extremely loose terms.

    For example:

    Using the top five most played, Talonsoft scenarios, I thought it might be interesting to see how the original Talonsoft designers used the time scale within their scenarios.

    Tank Graveyard at Minsk by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 18 = 108 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~10 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 2 days) = 600 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 33.3 minutes per turn

    Giants on the Vistula by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 20 = 120 minutes
    Actual Battle length: 9 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 36 hours) = 540 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 27 minutes per turn

    Rest Steel at Fedorovka by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 14 = 84 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~11 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 3 days) = 660 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: ~47 minutes per turn

    Storm 5-5-5 by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 12 = 72 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~4 hours = 240 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 20 minutes per turn

    The Battle is Joined by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 20 = 120 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~8 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 16 hours) = 480 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 24 minutes per turn

    These portray only the time frame that is given by the description, order of battle and the objectives available in the scenario, I'm not including the entire battle from start to end - just the relevent time that the designer chose to represent.

    Can I find scenarios that use strictly 6 minutes per turn to portray the battle? You bet.

    I can find more that do not - especially from the original designers at Talonsoft.

    Jason Petho




    < Message edited by Jason Petho -- 12/20/2013 1:43:33 PM >

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    Post #: 18
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 2:00:18 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    Designer modified time scale: 33.3 minutes per turn


    Actually, this is exactly what I meant with semantics in my previous posts

    With the risk of being accused of Poisoning The Well tactics, I would say the counter argument for this would be: No, scale is not 33.3 minutes per turn, but 6 minutes per turn. That's what it says in the manual.

    Semantics.

    This is why I struggled to define a terminology for this. Battle Duration

    How about: Active Turns ie. how many active turns (that follow the Scale Basis) would it take to model this-and-that battle?

    One thing that is for sure is that the larger the scenario the sooner things start to go out of whack in regards to actual history.

    The real units just didn't have the exact situation awareness, the absolute obedieness and courage, the endurance and the fire power to put in these turn-in-turn-out performances that they do in the fine battle fields of JTCS.

    Or that at least is my observation so far.



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    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 6:39:09 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
    Joined: 7/5/2009
    Status: offline     		Scale Wars. Been here since 1977, when Episode IV, A New Hope came out.

    We've all seen them, enjoyed them, and, perhaps now, are just about to start becoming bored with them. I mean, The Dark Side must be strong in Them.

    Scale Wars. I think I can finally put my finger as what the issue is. It all boils down to this:

    How Would You Know?

    First, let us revisit 1977. The year we all thought Princess Leia is a hottie (well I thought so at least ).

    Panzer Leader 1940 Situation 22: Chehery - Guderian Attacked.

    Available for WF here: LINK.

    quote:

    May 14, 1940. The French 213th Infantry Regiment and the 7th Independent Armored Battalion attack the 1st Panzer Division's bridgehead across the Meuse river



    15 turns. Meaning: 90 minutes? How Would You Know?

    All I can tell is that it's a classic PL Battalion sized situation, with a French Infantry Bn + Tank Platoon attacking Two Coys worth of German infantry supported by a Tank Coy.

    But is it 90 minutes, strictly speaking. Perhaps? We will never know. But given the size and duration of the scenario, if the Panzer Leader scenario designer indeed intended it to be a 90 minute snapshot then JTCS (and Panzer Leader) does a pretty good recreation of the battle.

    Many of the original Talonsoft scenarios are this size, and since they never told us whether the scenarios were exact snippets from a certain battle, or representing events that happened during the battle, or even: a long battle as a whole, it is difficult to tell. How Would You Know?

    The thing is that my scenarios tend to be not Battalion sized but Division sized scenarios.

    Let us revisit Kuuterselkä: one Axis Division vs a couple of Allied Divisions. Tanks, Arty, Air attacks. Now, if I wouldn't have happened to spill the beans and revealed that the scenario represents events of a 28 hour period in 30 turns, Would You Know?

    Lots of experienced JTCS veterans have chipped in in its design, and now it flows really nicely, attacks and counter-attacks come and go. Seriously: Would You Know?

    But I can reveal, it absolutely does not represent a sequence where 30 turns = three hours. Absolutely not. Nor do any of my large designs. Things do go out of whack really soon with larger scenarios. If I'd attempt to remodel an actual timeline into a scale where sequential-turns-equals-actual time, the results would be just plain silly.

    Which lead me to often think: How can anyone say 20 turns is two hours, when it so obviously is not?

    But. How Would You Know.

    Well I do. For my scenarios. For most parts I do know where each battalion was at each period of time, what they were doing, how things were panning out, what where they thinking, what where they expecting, what were they waiting for. And the turn-based JTCS does not remodel this at all. That is why there was a need to come out with a new language. Battle Duration. Active Turns. As time does become elastic from 10-turns-equals-one-hour point of view.

    Therefore, if you do prefer to only play sequential-turns-equals-real-time scenarios, I have bad news for you. Somewhere, with Regiment sized scenarios perhaps, sequential turns stop to represent real time. And quite from the beginning. That is how it is.

    Of course, if you view scenarios in a manner that there is no direct correlation - as I do - well I need to realise there's a lot of scenarios out there that do a really good job at representing real time instead. Smaller ones. But equally fun ones.

    Scale Wars. When sides view JTCS from their own context, they often are right - within that context. But if either side tries to insist their view is The Universal Truth well it isn't.

    Luckily, if you can put your personal preferences of Battle Duration aside, you can probably still enjoy most scenarios. Because: How Would You Know.

    With this olive leaf, I go off-line for a week (apart my iPhone) and wish everyone a Very Merry Chrismas Period!



    < Message edited by Crossroads -- 12/20/2013 8:10:54 PM >

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    Post #: 20
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 6:46:31 PM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
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    From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

    For example:

    Using the top five most played, Talonsoft scenarios, I thought it might be interesting to see how the original Talonsoft designers used the time scale within their scenarios.

    Tank Graveyard at Minsk by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 18 = 108 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~10 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 2 days) = 600 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 33.3 minutes per turn

    Giants on the Vistula by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 20 = 120 minutes
    Actual Battle length: 9 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 36 hours) = 540 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 27 minutes per turn

    Rest Steel at Fedorovka by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 14 = 84 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~11 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 3 days) = 660 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: ~47 minutes per turn

    Storm 5-5-5 by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 12 = 72 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~4 hours = 240 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 20 minutes per turn

    The Battle is Joined by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 20 = 120 minutes
    Actual Battle length: ~8 hours (being generous as it lasted nearly 16 hours) = 480 minutes
    Designer modified time scale: 24 minutes per turn


    More examples, all from Rising Sun:

    Action in the Solomons by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 25 = 150 minutes
    Actual Battle Length: 12 hours (at least) = 720 minutes
    Designer Modified Time Scale: ~29 minutes per turn

    Trouble Along the Ilu by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 20 = 120 minutes
    Actual Battle Length: ~6 hours (at least) = 360 minutes
    Designer Modified Time Scale: 18 minutes per turn

    Edson's Ridge by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 21 = 126 minutes
    Actual Battle Length: ~6-1/2 hours = 390 minutes
    Designer Modified Time Scale: 18.5 minutes per turn

    Take Buna Mission by Doug Bevard
    Game Turns: 23 = 138 minutes
    Actual Battle Length: 12+ hours (actually more than 10 days) = 720+ minutes
    Designer Modified Time Scale: ~31 minutes per turn

    And so too for many others...

    You've been playing the Campaign Series with "elastic time" for so many years, you just didn't realize it!

    Crossroads has a good term for it: Active Turns.

    In between the effective Active Turns are the periods of inactivity, where units stop to regroup, get their bearings, await further orders, rest, resupply, eat (during the Battle of Edson's Ridge, "Kokusho's men came upon a pile of Marine supplies and rations. Not having eaten adequately for a couple of days, they paused to "gorge themselves" on the "C" and "K" rations") -- the natural battlefield lulls. Dynamic turn lengths and elastic time allow us to model that indirectly, abstractly.

    Elastic time doesn't just allow us to model the natural battlefield lulls; it also accounts for the unrealistically high lethality of the game's combat model. With 6-minutes-per-turn strictly applied, and 12+ hours day-long engagements, in the Campaign Series one side or the other -- or both! -- would all or nearly all be usually wiped out.

    Again, review my statistical analysis of game turns, all games (see above), where even the longest scenarios last just 6 hours (60 turns) in game terms, most typically ~2 hours (~20 turns), not even half a morning or half an afternoon of real time. In the early Talonsoft years, when scenario designers were under the direct sway of John Tiller, it's obvious that time is not to scale, that we are not to take the 6-minutes-per-turn literally. Otherwise, we are supposed to believe that the Campaign Series models battles on fast forward?

    6 minutes per turn? If that's the Gospel Truth, then Doug Bevard and all the rest were a band of heretics!

    Nobody on the current Dev Team proposes to create scenarios where "each turn = 24 hours"; of course not. No need for hyperbole, no need for reductio ad absurdum arguments. And no need to cite what other dev teams may or may not do with their games. We design the Campaign Series and design scenarios without reference to others, but do it on our own terms and, in truth, respecting the game's accepted "scale".

    Just for the record: Dynamic Day/Night (and Visibility) and "elastic time" are not my ideas: They were to fulfill wish list requests by the Dev Team. Requests that, in the main, within reason, I wholeheartedly agree with.

    Anyway, it's just one new feature among many new features. Stating the obvious: You don't like it, you don't use it, don't play scenarios adopting the new capabilities. Continue making scenarios and playing the game in your accustomed manner, as you like it. What's to stop you?

    I'm going to crawl back to my Man Cave now.

    Happy Holidays, everybody!

    < Message edited by berto -- 12/21/2013 12:26:22 AM >

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    Post #: 21
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 7:43:59 PM   
    kool_kat


    Posts: 558
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    From: Clarksville, VA.
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    You've been playing the Campaign Series with "elastic time" for so many years, you just didn't realize it!


    Fine! I believe it. I've got no problems with "elastic," "active" or any other term you want to call it. It's just semantics? All examples were game turns that clocked in at under 1 hour. Based on the evidence from the cited scenario examples, I agree and would call that staying within acceptable (believable) perimeters.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    Nobody on the current Dev Team proposes to create scenarios where "each turn = 24 hours"; of course not. No need for hyperbole, no need for reductio ad absurdum arguments.


    I never stated that the current Development Team proposed creating scenarios with each turn = 24 hours. However, there was another person participating in this thread who was looking to re-create the battle of Dien Vien Phu (57 days and nights) using the JTCS engine. So, I thought my example using each turn = 24 hours to be a more modest one?

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    And no need to cite what other dev teams may or may not do with their games. We design the Campaign Series and design scenarios without reference to others, but do it on our own terms and, in truth, respecting the game's accepted "scale".


    Berto - That's fine. Good for Matrix! Thanks for your clarification. I used that example because I thought it illustrated the dangers of thinking about scale as an after thought... and not as part of an integrated and essential first step in the development of a game system.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    Just for the record: Dynamic Day/Night (and Visibility) and "elastic time" are not my ideas: They were to fulfill wish list requests by the Dev Team. Requests that, in the main, within reason, I wholeheartedly agree with.


    Please note that I never stated that these referenced components were your idea Berto. Please don't get so defensive! You guys are doing a great job here and I appreciate all the hard work and dedication underway to make these updates / changes happen!

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto
    Anyway, it's just one new feature among many new features. Stating the obvious: You don't like it, you don't use it, don't play scenarios adopting the new capabilities. Continue making scenarios and playing the game in your accustomed manner, as you like it. What's to stop you?


    Understand! We are free to pick and choose what new features we like and want to use. Perfect! No worries Berto! I think it is important to think about game scale and time frames whenever new game functionality or new units are introduced into the JTCS game system. Other players share my concerns too. We can all state our opinions here? Fair enough? Again, I will repeat myself. The Development Team is doing a fantastic job. Thank you all! I'm looking forward to the update in February 2014!

    _____________________________

    Regards, - Mike

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

    (in reply to berto)
    Post #: 22
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 7:57:07 PM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
    Joined: 3/13/2002
    From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Status: offline
    Thanks for the post, Mike. And you're welcome.

    2014 is going to be a banner year for the Campaign Series, the dawn of a new age. Apart from any new games or any new features, I've got deep code and software engineering plans like you wouldn't believe!

    To one and all: Happy Holidays!

    _____________________________

    Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com/
    Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515
    Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles, Civil War Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com

    (in reply to kool_kat)
    Post #: 23
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 8:09:42 PM   
    kool_kat


    Posts: 558
    Joined: 7/7/2008
    From: Clarksville, VA.
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto


    Thanks for the post, Mike. And you're welcome.

    2014 is going to be a banner year for the Campaign Series, the dawn of a new age. Apart from any new games or any new features, I've got deep code and software engineering plans like you wouldn't believe!

    To one and all: Happy Holidays!


    Hey Berto:

    Happy Holidays to you and your family! Make sure you take some "down time" and crawl out of your "man cave" to spend time with family and friends!

    _____________________________

    Regards, - Mike

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." - Albert Einstein

    (in reply to berto)
    Post #: 24
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/20/2013 8:25:19 PM   
    berto


    Posts: 20708
    Joined: 3/13/2002
    From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Status: offline
    Family and the holidays are highest priority, to be sure. Good music, at church and at concerts, too.

    The Campaign Series? I've been at it virtually non-stop (with just a one week break last July) since March. For the next week and a half, no coding!! I will be running automated crash tests, though.

    And -- shhhh! -- returning to play WITP:AE for a bit.

    _____________________________

    Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com/
    Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515
    Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles, Civil War Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com

    (in reply to kool_kat)
    Post #: 25
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/21/2013 12:30:22 PM   
    LoneWulf63


    Posts: 905
    Joined: 10/21/2011
    From: Columbia, South Carolina
    Status: offline     		RR, the amount of time in CS is arbitrary. It is not set in stone as six minutes of REAL time, it is abstract as are some other aspects of the game series. A game turn can be any be anything from six minutes (as stated in the manual) to 30 minutes. Lighten up my friend, it is just a game. Just sayin'.

    _____________________________

    In loving memory of my wife, Rebecca. 5/2/52 to 7/13/2014. I miss you sweetheart.
    Post #: 26
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/21/2013 1:51:48 PM   
    baltjes

     

    Posts: 59
    Joined: 7/21/2007
    Status: offline     		Wow,

    What a vivid discussion on this hot item! I like the idea of 'elastic time turn' and use it in effect by the development of H U G E scenario's.
    Beside variable (or dynamic) visabilty, I also apply variable ground conditions (dry, wet, mud, snow) and variable supply.
    So far, these items had to be set by altering the .btl-files during play. Could they also be incorporated into the scenario-editor? That would be much more elegant!

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all of you,

    Hajo Baltjes

    (in reply to LoneWulf63)
    Post #: 27
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/22/2013 4:51:47 PM   
    MrRoadrunner


    Posts: 1323
    Joined: 10/7/2005
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: resinslinger

    RR, the amount of time in CS is arbitrary. It is not set in stone as six minutes of REAL time, it is abstract as are some other aspects of the game series. A game turn can be any be anything from six minutes (as stated in the manual) to 30 minutes. Lighten up my friend, it is just a game. Just sayin'.


    Lighten up? Give me a break.

    250 meters per hex and six minute turns are in stone. It is how far a unit can move and shoot. That is the manual. It is how you select what grid you use when you design a map. Or, do your maps not reflect 250 meter hexes?
    Where you got "up to 30 minutes" was no where in the scale of CS or any original manual.

    Elastic and abstract are BS excuses, in my book. You cannot have arbitrary in CS. Guns shoot and do damage based on the amount of time, space, etc. that was in the original scale.

    When you "just say" something, you should know about what you are speaking.

    Please, refrain from smart a$$ attempts to "school" me ... please. I know how to design games all the way back to early board games. There, and here, scale has meaning.

    Educate yourself before you try to put down others.

    Just sayin'

    RR

    _____________________________

    “The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”
    ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    (in reply to LoneWulf63)
    Post #: 28
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/23/2013 6:17:52 AM   
    LoneWulf63


    Posts: 905
    Joined: 10/21/2011
    From: Columbia, South Carolina
    Status: offline     		RR, I would like to respond to your comments but a good friend of mine advised me not to and I will take that advise. I hope you have a Great Christmas and a Wonderful New Year. Chris (CS and MW dev team member).

    _____________________________

    In loving memory of my wife, Rebecca. 5/2/52 to 7/13/2014. I miss you sweetheart.

    (in reply to MrRoadrunner)
    Post #: 29
    RE: Coder Diary #14 -- Dynamic Day/Night & Visibility - 12/23/2013 3:53:12 PM   
    Crossroads


    Posts: 17372
    Joined: 7/5/2009
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: baltjes
    I like the idea of 'elastic time turn' and use it in effect by the development of H U G E scenario's.

    Beside variable (or dynamic) visabilty, I also apply variable ground conditions (dry, wet, mud, snow) and variable supply.

    So far, these items had to be set by altering the .btl-files during play. Could they also be incorporated into the scenario-editor? That would be much more elegant!



    Thanks baltjes, those are neat ideas and I think would again be of use for designers working on larger and / or longer scenarios. I will add those to the wish list items. No promises though!

    I earlier made a wish for three different snow to be available: shallow, medium and deep. Deep would be the default so all earlier sceanrios would continue to play as they are. Medium and shallow would mean less movement resistance.

    Merry Christmas to you as well!

    _____________________________

    Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
    ---
    CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
    CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

    (in reply to baltjes)
    Post #: 30
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