Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: pz501

Like the header says, I wonder if anyone might?

I've been playing Gary Grigsby's designs since the "old" days when he was with SSI, through Talonsoft, and now Matrix. The comments I make are NOT intended in ANY way as a criticism of Gary, Joel, OR any forum member here. Truly, if a "Wargame Design Hall of Fame" is ever made, Gary and Joel would belong in it!

That being said, recent posts about the production, replacement, reinforcement, and air systems have set me to wonder if it's worth continuing on with this game, or for that matter any others planned for the future?

At first I believed that all the discoveries and posts concerning things being broken or not working correctly were simply the complaints of a small, vocal, group of either pro-Axis or pro-Soviet players pushing an agenda. However, after re-reading these from the beginning over this past week, and taking into account the recent issues, I have to admit that I was totally wrong...over 95% appear to be accurate and valid points.

This tends to make me somewhat pessimistic about seeing any real improvements or corrections with the game at all. The editor can't correct the main problems, since like the bulk of Gary's designs, most (if not all) of the routines are hard-coded in the .exe files, and it would take a huge amount of work (including access to the source code) to even attempt fixing things. To be sure, it looks like one person here has been given that access, and maybe, he can make some needed changes. We'll see I guess.

The fact is though, every time I start this game now, I begin to wonder what's the use anymore? At first, it looked as though this would be the ultimate East Front experience, complete with an editor to tinker with. Who could ask for more?

Now, (to me at least) it's a question of wondering about what might have been. PBEM is not easy without a ton of house rules, exploiting or bending the game system may even be necessary in a lot of cases. Against the AI (even for "training") things seem to be hopeless.

I've played both PBEM, and vs the AI from both sides more than a few times, and I'm seeing the same things others are describing. Over this last week it's almost as if I'm seeing things for the very first time, and slowly losing faith.

All that being said, I also wonder now if others are feeling the same way, and if prospective buyers are being put off? I don't think anyone could fault them, and that's really sad, since this game had/has so much potential and promise.

I really wanted this game to work out, and believed that after some patching it would. Now, I just don't know anymore, and I wonder if anyone else out there is starting to feel the same?

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Those who take the time to read Clausewitz will know that he describes warfare as a chameleon which adapts whilst retaining its fundamental elements of violence, friction, uncertainty etc.

A computer war game (in today's world) cannot adapt as an independent entity and therefore repeated playing of the game can exploit issues to advantage thereby avoiding the natural evolution of warfare that exists. WitE was a ground breaking development and I know from my observation of these forums that very skilful individuals have pushed the game engine to the limit in its current iteration even with the patches that have been consistently delivered.

In terms of realism I would concede that the intellectual power of those individuals has exploited issues in the code beyond that intended but having done so the discussion has focused not on their ahistoric actions but rather the inability of the game to prevent such actions. The normal feedback loop of the nature of warfare does not exist in computer code. That doesn't diminish WitE in any respect. It demonstrates the power of the human mind and shows that the next step is needed for no better reason than to challenge the human mind once more. I have no doubt that the successor to WitE will be exploited in its turn when it is published but I'm sure we will enjoy doing it as that's the point after all.

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ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

Flavius does have the best comments on this board hands down. Where does he come up with this stuff?

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ORIGINAL: pz501

I'm running the latest beta patch, with the .exe "hotfix" (I think it's version .13?).

I really hope the next patch does clean up things. Like I've said, great potential.

I've got a little experience beta testing (for Talonsoft, when John Tiller's "West Front" was in development) and some limited scenario design experience (a WW I scenario that is still included with TOAW III), and have worked (again TOAW) with our own Trey "Jefe" Marshall on a still-born Cold War project. So, I have some understanding of how hard it can get to keep everyone happy.

What I've been trying to say is that at times it does seem to me after reading (and verifying) some of the issues, it gets frustrating, and I begin to wonder if I can really get back into WiTE. I still keep messing with the editor, so I'll admit that the game still does have a great attraction for me.

I won't get into some of the things I would have liked to have seen (maybe WiTE II will include some of them), and people are correct when they say War in the West should be much improved based on what's been learned with this game. I hope Gary and Joel have a really good alpha and beta team available who aren't afraid to tear things up a little in order to make it as good as can be. In fact, given their past performance and attention to detail, I know they do.

I really do hope that a few of the issues WiTE currently has get ironed out. I'd really like to get back into playing again (rather than just using the editor), even if it's only against the AI.

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

We all love this game and are grognards and also drama queens, so like any romance there are times of doubt and disillusion, theatrically expressed, yet we keep coming back to this old lady and forgive her for her flaws. She forgives us right back. It's that kind of relationship.

The make up sex is awesome, btw.

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ORIGINAL: STEF78

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ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

We all love this game and are grognards and also drama queens, so like any romance there are times of doubt and disillusion, theatrically expressed, yet we keep coming back to this old lady and forgive her for her flaws. She forgives us right back. It's that kind of relationship.

The make up sex is awesome, btw.

+1

It's so sad that my English is too poor to wtrite such sentences...

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ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I’m enjoying myself picking the game apart as I play Saper222, but I’m not trying to pretend that its world war II in Russia, its just a game.

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I share some of your reservations. There is a design philosophy behind the 2x3 games that seems to cause the same set of recurring problems.

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I’m a bit more on the fence than most people here, I am enjoying the game but there are major problems that make me think I might enjoy a different game from a different source more. This is probably the best eastern front simulation there is, but its not very good at it on the whole. Its very good at parts of the war, and terrible at other parts.

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Some people are very attracted to high levels of detail, including the design team of the game and the people who buy it an are on this forum.

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I sometimes wonder if they could sell more with a somewhat different design focus, but I am not sure they could.

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but I’m not trying to pretend that its world war II in Russia, its just a game.

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the fact that I noticed millions of Red Army soldiers are missing does not mean

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I'll add that your question about training units and unsuitable people applies much more to Western and German armies than it did to the Red Army in 1941.

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ORIGINAL: SigUp

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ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I’m enjoying myself picking the game apart as I play Saper222, but I’m not trying to pretend that its world war II in Russia, its just a game.

While I'm in favour of historical plausibility I also recognize that there are elemental problems in the attempt to completely remodel the Eastern Front. Just take the issue of the low replacement rate for the Soviets. If the Soviets get their historical units, what would happen in the current engine? The German wouldn't stand even the slightest chance, as the Soviet player wouldn't make the mistakes Stalin did. In the end you would have the Red Army in Berlin in 1943, which would deter most German players. So if you introduce historical replacement rates you have to introduce some simulation of the political situation in the Soviet Union, forcing the player to make at least some of the mistakes Stalin did. That in return could deter people who don't like seeing their operational freedom restricted too much.

Does WITE have much improvement potential? Yes, of course. There are many issues which have me on the fence. But designing an East Front game isn't really the easiest task there's out there.

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ORIGINAL: SigUp

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ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

I’m enjoying myself picking the game apart as I play Saper222, but I’m not trying to pretend that its world war II in Russia, its just a game.

While I'm in favour of historical plausibility I also recognize that there are elemental problems in the attempt to completely remodel the Eastern Front. Just take the issue of the low replacement rate for the Soviets. If the Soviets get their historical units, what would happen in the current engine? The German wouldn't stand even the slightest chance, as the Soviet player wouldn't make the mistakes Stalin did. In the end you would have the Red Army in Berlin in 1943, which would deter most German players. So if you introduce historical replacement rates you have to introduce some simulation of the political situation in the Soviet Union, forcing the player to make at least some of the mistakes Stalin did. That in return could deter people who don't like seeing their operational freedom restricted too much.

Does WITE have much improvement potential? Yes, of course. There are many issues which have me on the fence. But designing an East Front game isn't really the easiest task there's out there.

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I love the ultra detail, and really like being able to view the detailed TO&E for say, a Panzer-Division, or a Guards Mech Corps. Sometimes I think it would be easier, and almost as accurate to go to the old Attack-Defense-Movement factor system, with step reductions, and replacement steps instead. I could live with either system, but that's probably because I've played SPI's "War in Europe", and GDW's "Europa" series of games.

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ORIGINAL: Michael T
While the level of detail in WITE is the primary motivation for many, for me I would prefer less Micromanagement and more emphasis on a nice clean logistics and combat system.GG games seem to get bogged down in too much detail IMO. Detail that does not necessarily add to the game play aspect.